Bahá'í

[Little_Star_1]

Heh.

And it appears that you believe exactly the same thing.

In fact, if you take what I said to its logical conclusion, you would see that I was saying that your love for mankind should cause you to love daler too much to be disrespectful of him. In fact I was saying, that you should equally love Bahai’i folks, Muslims, Jews, and all others as you do Christians. Which is to say, I love them all including you.

And then you called me an animal.

 

[Servant19]

So Bahá’í believe that Jesus and the prophets of the Old Testament are all Manifestations. And this group of religious teachers includes all sorts of people, like Mohammad and Bahá’u’lláh. However, Jesus said in the Gospels “beware false prophets”

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7:15[/BIBLEDRB]

How does you justify Jesus as a teacher of your religion with him warning against false prophets? It’s fairly clear that Jesus taught Catholicism as the Truth.

Razanir, I love your signature, you have been reading the Bible very consistently, well done

How can you therefore tell that Jesus Himself is not a false prophet?

 

[Porknpie]

Hey, I never said anything against reason. I said it that love was the greatest part of Christian teaching and that love should prevent us from attacking others and being disrespectful of their beliefs. Paul said that love was more important than all else as well in Corinthians. Then, you called me an animal.

What differentiates the human being from animal beings is that human beings are able to reason.

If you say that you do not reason then you are calling yourself an animal … which … given that you are reasoning, perhaps incorrectly (through lack of information perhaps) on this thread, you are by definition a human being and rationale.

So…when PR highlights that Justin Martyr in about year 140 ad describes the Catholic Mass, then you have to use your intellect and reason to decide whether the Catholic Church was founded with Constantine.

Even earlier, St Ignatius of Antioch describe the Catholic Church in 110ad, complete with Bishops.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

And then ask yourself, why do you no attend a church that does not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist if that is what Christ taught his apostles and they taught their successors? You can read about this too in John chapter 6.

 

[Little_Star_1]

What differentiates the human being from animal beings is that human beings are able to reason.

If you say that you do not reason then you are calling yourself an animal … which … given that you are reasoning, perhaps incorrectly (through lack of information perhaps) on this thread, you are by definition a human being and rationale.

So…when PR highlights that Justin Martyr in about year 140 ad describes the Catholic Mass, then you have to use your intellect and reason whether the Catholic Church was founded with Constantine.

Even earlier, St Ignatius of Antioch describe the Catholic Church in 110ad, complete with Bishops.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

And then ask yourself, why do you no attend a church that does not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist if that is what Christ taught his apostles and they taught their successors? You can read about this too in John chapter 6.

I repeat, I never said that I did not use reason in discerning what is of God. I said the greater part of Christ’s teachings was to love one another. I said nothing about what church I attend and nor what it teaches. You guys read a whole lot into who I am and what I said, which is not there. Do you do this merely as an excuse to speak on topics where you want to display your thoughts and beliefs?

If you want to discuss a particular topic, do so. You do not have to pull me into it as you are just waxing philosophically for no real purpose when you do this. I said nothing about anything you discussed. Are you folks bored or something?

Also, when the Catholic church was formed is believed to have been at one point by Catholics and another by many others. The church was officially started by Constantine. There wasn’t any coherent church structure or beliefs at the time of the Pentecost. Indeed, church doctrine was hotly debated even between Paul and Peter. So, stop seeking to teach me and making statements regarding my beliefs or where I attend church. You know so little about me and make too much of what you think you do know. Ask yourself why you are doing this. What in you drives you to judge as you do?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

No Ignatian, what Daler is referring to is the DIVINE reality, that is the same. They are different HUMAN identities.

All human identities (i.e their body, mind and soul) is still LIMITED by some of the frailties and limitations of humanity, they are not transcendent of eating, drinking, sleeping.

In regards to sin, you know as well as I do that what is a mercy killing to champion Gods justice, is not considered a sin, certainly not at the time.

One could easily argue that the damaging of property and overthrowing of tables at a market place is equally a sin, as with Jesus, or the destruction of hundreds of idolized statues (Abraham)

What is the divine reality? What do you think a Christian is going to hear when someone says “Jesus was divine of course.” ? Do you think the Christian is going to hear him say in that statement some mystical unefinable aspect of Jesus as a manifestation of God but not God? No of course they are not. Daler said what he said clear and day “WE ALL” acknowledge the divinity of Jesus here, bahai and Christian alike but clearly we do not. The bahai don’t consider Jesus divine at all, a divine purpose sure, but not a divine substance, not that which makes God God. His statement was designed to appeal to Christian sentiments to say “hey look we don’t dissagree,” when in reality we do dissagree because you would never confess the Nicene/Constantinopolitan creed as a bahai. You would never have the liturgy of John Damascus or consider other Christian liturgy as right worship. We worship Christ, you do not. Don’t tell me I misunderstood his statement, i understood it fine and its deceptive either unintentionally or intentionally.

And what does the same divine reality as to the manifestations mean? Does it meant hey are individuals without their body? Again bahai seem reluctant to determine anything as to this point. Are they individual spiritual entities like the angels? Is there one manifestation who takes on different forms throughout history? All of my questions have not been answered except in vague images which don’t convey anything of real meaning, hence I reccomend to the bahai they learn to define properly their concepts for Christians.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

They did not get rid of them. They excluded them. There is a difference. Well, on one thing we agree, we are of a differing Christian heritage.

Oh boy.

 

[Porknpie]

The church was officially started by Constantine. There wasn’t any coherent church structure or beliefs at the time of the Pentecost. Indeed, church doctrine was hotly debated even between Paul and Peter. What in you drives you to judge as you do?

No one is judging you, just stating historical facts below and with quotations from St Ignatius and Justin Martyr to convey the truth.

Note, by time of Pentacost we had our first pope and bishops already and the beliefs of the Church already included sacramental baptism and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

The Church was officially started by Christ (And per earlier post first called Catholic in writing that survived the centuries by St. Ignatius in 110ad)

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

Here’s an interesting quote from Cyprian, written well before Constantine became Emperor.

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

 

[daler]

I repeat, I never said that I did not use reason in discerning what is of God. I said the greater part of Christ’s teachings was to love one another.

“Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You shall seek me: and as I said to the Jews, Where I go, you cannot come; so now I say to you. A new commandment I give to you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.”

 

[daler]

Not a problem. Have a safe trip.

Steve,
There are many social and economic development projects throughout the world (mostly third world, but elsewhere as well). Education for girls is high on the list, and always, such schools provide education regardless of religious affiliation. No one has to become a Baha’i to admitted to these schools or to benefit from the other programs set up by members of the Baha’i community.
Generally, a broad view is taken for both short and long term benefits to the communities, from the grassroots level, as broadly as practicable, and with the knowledge and permission civil authorities.
Here are a few links of some of the activities Baha’is engage in around the world.

bcca.org/services/lists/noble-creation/sed-proj.html

ahad-sed.org/

tahirih.org/

info.bahai.org/article-1-8-0-1.html

monafoundation.org/

PS Let me say, that Catholic Charities does tremendous work in many vital areas around the world. This speaks very highly of the Catholic Church and the devotion of its members to humanitarian needs.

PPS Wherever possible Baha’is work with existing foundations and encourage the youth in service projects in their local communities. My experience has been with Habitat for Humanity, the MCC, and on Sioux Reservations such as Pine Ridge, at Wounded Knee, west of where I grew up.

 

[PRmerger]

I said it that love was the greatest part of Christian teaching and that love should prevent us from attacking others and being disrespectful of their beliefs. Paul said that love was more important than all else as well in Corinthians

This is very Catholic of you to say.

 

[PRmerger]

In fact, if you take what I said to its logical conclusion, you would see that I was saying that your love for mankind should cause you to love daler too much to be disrespectful of him. In fact I was saying, that you should equally love Bahai’i folks, Muslims, Jews, and all others as you do Christians. Which is to say, I love them all including you

And this, too, is very Catholic.

 

[daler]

And this, too, is very Catholic.

Dear PR, May I please ask something of you? This is something I wish to share with you. It isn’t long, only about 5 minutes. It may be refreshing, a little change from the usual. It is a brief music video on You Tube about ten women hung in a single day simply for refusing to deny and recant their beliefs in Baha’u’llah as a final testimony of the firm Faith and refusal to deny God.
The youngest of these women was Mona, after whom one of my daughters was named. I am quite sure that it will touch your heart, and as I say, it is very short. As my wife’s aunt and cousins were also imprisoned in these same dungeons,threatened with execution also, but they were released following a dream of my aunt had, giving her courage.
But here is the brief video. It has Buffy St Marie in it, Danny Seals, Seals and Crofts, and other professional actors, such as Alex Rocco: I really want to share this with you and please, if you will, tell me plainly, should these ten woman whose only crime was to love humanity and have the courage to stand up to these fanatic mullahs, refusing to simply deny their Faith, do you think this is the fair treatment from your view.
I thank you very deeply if you will take five minutes here. God bless you, PR, for I do know how strong you love your Lord and that your heart is just.

youtube.com/watch?v=kQ-UxEbuPag

 

[daler]

Not a problem. Have a safe trip.

Dear Steve,
As our heart is sensitive to the suffering of others, may I please share with you a very short piece on You Tube about five minutes long about the execution of 10 women in a single day, the youngest of which was named Mona, imprisoned for their beliefs? I named my daughter after her and feel a real bond with this blessed and courageous young women.
If you don’t mind the 5 minute watch, with seals and Crofts, Danny Seals, Buffy St Marie, and Alex Rocco playing the evil mullah. It is done very will:

youtube.com/watch?v=kQ-UxEbuPag

 

[Little_Star_1]

This is very Catholic of you to say.

It is not just Catholic. It is of God. As much as I love Christ, I don’t believe that Christians have a corner on God’s love. Nor do I believe that God is found in performing rituals. Nor do I believe that God and the church are one and the same.

 

[Servant19]

It is not just Catholic. It is of God. As much as I love Christ, I don’t believe that Christians have a corner on God’s love. Nor do I believe that God is found in performing rituals. Nor do I believe that God and the church are one and the same.

As ironic as this may seem…

This is very Bahai!!

 

[Servant19]

…which is very much very God…

…it’s just that ALL Baha’is believe it and LIVE IT!

 

[PRmerger]

It is not just Catholic. It is of God. As much as I love Christ, I don’t believe that Christians have a corner on God’s love.

This, too, is very Catholic.

Nor do I believe that God is found in performing rituals.

Rituals can be empty of meaning.

But surely you’re not saying that God can’t be found in rituals.

Nor do I believe that God and the church are one and the same.

Christ only has One Body. And that is the Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Dear PR, May I please ask something of you? This is something I wish to share with you. It isn’t long, only about 5 minutes. It may be refreshing, a little change from the usual. It is a brief music video on You Tube about ten women hung in a single day simply for refusing to deny and recant their beliefs in Baha’u’llah as a final testimony of the firm Faith and refusal to deny God.
The youngest of these women was Mona, after whom one of my daughters was named. I am quite sure that it will touch your heart, and as I say, it is very short. As my wife’s aunt and cousins were also imprisoned in these same dungeons,threatened with execution also, but they were released following a dream of my aunt had, giving her courage.
But here is the brief video. It has Buffy St Marie in it, Danny Seals, Seals and Crofts, and other professional actors, such as Alex Rocco: I really want to share this with you and please, if you will, tell me plainly, should these ten woman whose only crime was to love humanity and have the courage to stand up to these fanatic mullahs, refusing to simply deny their Faith, do you think this is the fair treatment from your view.
I thank you very deeply if you will take five minutes here. God bless you, PR, for I do know how strong you love your Lord and that your heart is just.

She was an amazing girl. Only 16! What a tragedy. Truly.

The cruelty of men can take one’s breath away.

 

[Servant19]

Hi Steve,

I have a few minutes now and will try and address the “What do Baha’is do?” question. I’ve delayed this simply because its a huge vast expanse of words to adequately describe.

Daler has already addressed some areas of activity, but my area of work at the moment revolves around the creation of self sustaining neighborhoods in geographical areas known as clusters. Every single spot of land in the planet is part of a Bahai cluster.

Within each cluster, programs are in place for the following:

1. The education of children to acquire virtues and how to put them into practice with a world embracing vision.
2. Programs for the spiritual empowerment of junior youth (12-15 yr olds). This age group is especially valued for Baha’is. They are taught that making maximum efforts in pursuits that contribute to selfless service of all community members draws particular confirmation from God. This is the first step of their empowerment, and this culminates in them, at the age of 15 becoming very effective leaders of moral excellence and agents for long term, coordinated socio-economic development
3. Study circles for 15+ age bracket. This activity is run by the Ruhi institute, and there is no better explanation than its website:

www.ruhi.org

1. Devotional meetings, where friends gather together from all religions and pray to the One God. This raises the “devotional character of the community”

Worship and service form the foundation of these 4 core activities forming a community dedicated to one reality, worshipping and serving the One God, without prejudice, (whether cultural, racial, gender, or religious). These twin pillars, worship and service are the mainstay of what it means to be a Bahai, both individually and collectively, and the programs provide all participants highly effective and practical tools to build and strengthen their capacity to do both these things.

The collective foundation for all sustainable service within any Bahai inspired community, is the beautiful art of Bahai consultation which vivifies the process of decision making within the elected local, national and international institutions, and has allowed for a 160+ year old religion to stay unified as it has steadily grown in its infancy. Bahai consultation is unique throughout religious history.

The institutions are unique, the decision making process is unique and the outcome of a guaranteed unified religious community is similarly unique.

The processes at play can be viewed in this beautiful video 4 clusters where the service and worship processes are beginning to take shape. There are over 5000 cluster worldwide where similar things to what you see in this video are taking place:

www.bahai.org/frontiers

God bless my friend, and please feel free to ask any questions

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Steve,
As our heart is sensitive to the suffering of others, may I please share with you a very short piece on You Tube about five minutes long about the execution of 10 women in a single day, the youngest of which was named Mona, imprisoned for their beliefs? I named my daughter after her and feel a real bond with this blessed and courageous young women.
If you don’t mind the 5 minute watch, with seals and Crofts, Danny Seals, Buffy St Marie, and Alex Rocco playing the evil mullah. It is done very will:

youtube.com/watch?v=kQ-UxEbuPag

Thanks for this, daler. The enemy prowls about the earth seeking whom he may devour. There really are no words. Lord Jesus, come!