Bahá'í

[daler]

O Supreme Pen, We have heard Thy most sweet call in the eternal realm:
Give Thou ear unto what the Tongue of Grandeur uttereth, O Wronged One of the worlds!
Were it not for the cold, how would the heat of Thy words prevail,
O Expounder of the worlds?
Were it not for calamity, how would the sun of Thy patience shine,
O Light of the worlds?
Lament not because of the wicked. Thou wert created to bear and endure,
O Patience of the worlds.
How sweet was Thy dawning on the horizon of the Covenant among the stirrers of sedition, and Thy yearning after God,
O Love of the worlds.
By Thee the banner of independence was planted on the highest peaks, and the sea of bounty surged, O Rapture of the worlds.
By Thine aloneness the Sun of Oneness shone, and by Thy banishment the land of Unity was adorned. Be patient, O Thou Exile of the worlds.
We have made abasement the garment of glory, and affliction the adornment of Thy temple,
O Pride of the worlds.
Thou seest the hearts are filled with hate, and to overlook is Thine,
O Thou Concealer of the sins of the worlds.
When the swords flash, go forward! When the shafts fly, press onward!
O Thou Sacrifice of the worlds.
Dost Thou wail, or shall I wail? Rather shall I weep at the fewness of Thy champions,
O Thou Who hast caused the wailing of the worlds.

Verily, I have heard Thy Call, O All-Glorious Beloved; and now is the face of Bahá flaming with the heat of tribulation and with the fire of Thy shining word, and He hath risen up in faithfulness at the place of sacrifice, looking toward Thy pleasure,
O Ordainer of the worlds.
O ‘Alí-Akbar, thank thy Lord for this Tablet whence thou canst breathe the fragrance of My meekness, and know what hath beset Us in the path of God,
the Adored of all the worlds.
Should all the servants read and ponder this, there shall be kindled in their veins a fire that shall set aflame the worlds.

—Bahá’u’lláh

 

[flameburns623]

Thanks for sharing, Daler!

 

[daler]

Stylteralmaldo

Thank you kindly for sharing your beautiful prayer with me, very soothing to the soul.

For urgent need of God’s healing, said in a meditative way, or chant…

THE LONG HEALING PRAYER

He is the Healer, the Sufficer, the Helper, the All-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
I call on Thee O Exalted One, O Faithful One, O Glorious One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Sovereign, O Upraiser, O Judge!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Peerless One, O Eternal One, O Single One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Most Praised One, O Holy One, O Helping One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Omniscient, O Most Wise, O Most Great One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Clement One, O Majestic One, O Ordaining One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Beloved One, O Cherished One, O Enraptured One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Mightiest One, O Sustaining One, O Potent One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Ruling One, O Self-Subsisting, O All-Knowing One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Spirit, O Light, O Most Manifest One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Thou Frequented by all, O Thou Known to all, O Thou Hidden from all!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Concealed One, O Triumphant One, O Bestowing One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Almighty, O Succoring One, O Concealing One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Fashioner, O Satisfier, O Uprooter!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Rising One, O Gathering One, O Exalting One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Perfecting One, O Unfettered One, O Bountiful One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Beneficent One, O Withholding One, O Creating One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Most Sublime One, O Beauteous One, O Bounteous One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Just One, O Gracious One, O Generous One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O All-Compelling, O Ever-Abiding, O Most Knowing One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Magnificent One, O Ancient of Days, O Magnanimous One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Well-guarded One, O Lord of Joy, O Desired One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Thou Kind to all, O Thou Compassionate with all, O Most Benevolent One! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Haven for all, O Shelter to all, O All-Preserving One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Thou Succorer of all, O Thou Invoked by all, O Quickening One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Unfolder, O Ravager, O Most Clement One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Thou my Soul, O Thou my Beloved, O Thou my Faith!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Quencher of thirsts, O Transcendent Lord, O Most Precious One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Greatest Remembrance, O Noblest Name, O Most Ancient Way!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Most Lauded, O Most Holy, O Sanctified One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Unfastener, O Counselor, O Deliverer!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Friend, O Physician, O Captivating One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Glory, O Beauty, O Bountiful One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O the Most Trusted, O the Best Lover, O Lord of the Dawn!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Enkindler, O Brightener, O Bringer of Delight!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Lord of Bounty, O Most Compassionate, O Most Merciful One!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Constant One, O Life-giving One, O Source of all Being!
Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One

Continue…

 

[daler]

Continued Long Healing Prayer"

I call on Thee O Thou Who penetratest all things, O All-Seeing God, O Lord of Utterance! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Manifest yet Hidden, O Unseen yet Renowned, O Onlooker sought by all! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Thou Who slayest the Lovers, O God of Grace to the wicked!
O Sufficer, I call on Thee, O Sufficer!
O Healer, I call on Thee, O Healer!
O Abider, I call on Thee, O Abider!
Thou the Ever-Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
Sanctified art Thou, O my God! I beseech Thee by Thy generosity, whereby the portals of Thy bounty and grace were opened wide, whereby the Temple of Thy Holiness was established upon the throne of eternity; and by Thy mercy whereby Thou didst invite all created things unto the table of Thy bounties and bestowals; and by Thy grace whereby Thou didst respond, in Thine own Self 98 with Thy word “Yea!” on behalf of all in heaven and earth, at the hour when Thy sovereignty and Thy grandeur stood revealed, at the dawn-time when the might of Thy dominion was made manifest. And again do I beseech Thee, by these most beauteous names, by these most noble and sublime attributes, and by Thy most Exalted Remembrance, and by Thy pure and spotless Beauty, and by Thy hidden Light in the most hidden pavilion, and by Thy Name, cloaked with the garment of affliction every morn and eve, to protect the bearer of this blessed Tablet, and whoso reciteth it, and whoso cometh upon it, and whoso passeth around the house wherein it is. Heal Thou, then, by it every sick, diseased and poor one, from every tribulation and distress, from every loathsome affliction and sorrow, and guide Thou by it whosoever desireth to enter upon the paths of Thy guidance, and the ways of Thy forgiveness and grace.
Thou art verily the Powerful, the All-Sufficing, the Healing, the Protector, the Giving, the Compassionate, the All-Generous, the All-Merciful.
—Bahá’u’lláh

 

[happyme]

This is something I have observed previously but will say again–it bears repeating.

I find a considerable amount of beauty and even truth in some of the mystical reflections of Baha’u’llah. It seems to me a religion worth of respect on that basis, as “all Truth, all Beauty, are God’s”.

This is not a carte-blanche endorsement of the Baha’i Faith. I befriended Baha’i on the old WebTV Baha’i chatroom, and later on PlanetBaha’i. Went to the extent of locating two brief mystical works–The Hidden Words and another work (Seven Hills and Seven Valleys? Seems like something along those lines).

On th’other hand, I am inclined to poetry, mystical reflections, and the well-turned word, generally. But distinguish between my appreciation for such and the pursuit of Truth. This being a Catholic apologetics forum, one expects a bit of wrangling over whether the Baha’i Faith is true or an imposture–with the majority of folks here, having already decided FOR Roman Catholicism, inclining to the latter.

That said: I appreciate the willingness of adherents of the Baha’i Faith to venture into what must feel like hostile territory, to engage in dialogue and to answer questions. Kudos. Please know you remain in my (very Catholic) prayers.

Dear friend

It is people like yourself, honest and faithful to the teachings of Christ, that give me hope for mankind.

Christ taught to love ones neighbour, he did not say so long as he believes as you do, or any such.

It is wonderful to show respect and love for all, no matter what faith or even lack of faith, we should love all.

Again thank you and all others here who show love and respect, you are my brothers and sisters.

 

[daler]

Dear friend

It is people like yourself, honest and faithful to the teachings of Christ, that give me hope for mankind.

Christ taught to love ones neighbour, he did not say so long as he believes as you do, or any such.

It is wonderful to show respect and love for all, no matter what faith or even lack of faith, we should love all.

Again thank you and all others here who show love and respect, you are my brothers and sisters.

I think thats what being brothers and sisters in Christ means.

We aren’t supposed to exclude people from our group, or ourselves…

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

God’s understanding is far above that of the cavilings of man.

So me being critical automatically dismisses what I say? I swear bahai love to say “your too mean” all the time and I just think of that as weakness. Rather than deal with arguments against your religion you try to attack the character of the one criticising your religion, yet would neccessarily as a bahai have to maintain the early Christians were immoral corrupters of the truth (and I belief that would be absolutely necessery for bahai to be true even if you want to deny it). Now I wish to criticise a belief which I see is false, nothing more, bahai simply want to preach and eventually when bahai mature and develop a more critical outlook on things they will realise the need for a robust defence against criticism. The early church fathers didn’t just complain against the pagans who were persecuting them, they offered robust reasons as to why their pagan beliefs were false unlike the bahai who would probably eat meat offered to idols or worship with Pagans in the spirit of brotherhood and unity.

So lets actually death with some arguments Happy, not this personal attacking of character? Or will this be hte go to responce for bahai? “you’re too mean, leave us alone, we’re peaceful!” Just an excuse to get out of the argument and nothing more.

Now you say Jesus and mirza Hussain are one in the same, you need to actually clarify this. This is too vague. I know bahai do not treat Jesus and Mirza Hussain as being one in the same person, but rather being one in the same Christ, although I question this connotation. Because Christ of the New testament says the gates of hades will not prevail against the church, and I must ask since the early CHristians neccessarily according to bahai belief immorally corrupted the faith how can the words of Jesus Christ of Nazereth be true? How can muhammad who said there would be a true remnant of Christians to the day of ressurection (which had obviously not happened when Jesus said it) remain true? There is no day of ressurection in bahai, there is no historical group that ever held to the ideas of Bahai before Mirza Hussain and yet we are told by both sources you trust and believe that there must be a true group of Christians who would not fail. Where are they? Who meets the qualification? I assert only NIcene christinaity meets that qualification.

That being said, you want to condemn me for judging. Are you not judging when you determine the meaning of a certain scripture? Or do you mean Judgding as if I was saying you are going to hell? I never once said that, nor do I make pretensions to that sort of judgement. I do perceive to judge error and expose it when i see it unless convinced otherwise. Do bahai not judge error? Don’t bahai constantly say the Chrsitians and Muslims are wrong for rejecting Mirza HUssain? So you don’t let God judge exclusively, you judge according to what you know because you cannot live without certain judgement, no one can.

Now you reject my words as inflammatory, but you don’t explain why they are wrong. You simply spout “This is what we believe according to what was revealed to us.” You have in no way tried to justify this reading of the new testament from the text itself, from a historical understanding nor offered any argument in favour of the bahai understanding. This is the standard tactic of bahai, attack the person as being mean or bigoted but never go further into these questions. That is I asked specific questions and made specific comments. The early Christians were not dualists as the bahai are, that is they did not have this ultimate distinguishing between the body and the soul, as if one was totally superior. This is clear in the patristics and I would say its also clear in the New testament. I need the bahai to explain how anyone was expected to read luke’s gospel in their way before Mirza Hussain came about. I will lay the case out again and this time actually try to respond instead of these personal attacks.

We have Luke present a narrative, opening with a declaration that he wants to describe the events of Jesus to one Theophilus. Now the bahai interpret the gospel of Luke’s opening concerning the virgin birth as literal but as soon as Jesus is baptised and begins a miracle ministry suddenly all of his acts become metaphorical. Why? Did Luke himself try to convey this at all? Were there any disclaimers? Any markers that we might see in the text that say “miracles don’t happen except for this one and only this one.”? This is an important question when it comes to the bible, it is not inflammatory it is simply pointing out a flaw with bahai interpretation which is subject to the thoughts of one man. Indeed bahai ultimately admit this that the bible’s meaning was locked until he came, he alone has opened the bible. I dare then ask why reveal a bible at all if people were going to misunderstand it? Why did Luke choose to write as a historian? Why does he get so many things hsitorically right as if he was trying to convey an actual narrative of what happened to JEsus Christ and the apostles within reality? Was there no other way? A less confusing way so as to convey that JEsus was born of one miracle, didn’t do any others and wasn’t ressurected? The word ressurection we should be reminded was never used to describe a spiritual asscension into heaven, but rather it always described a reversal of death. That was the case until gnosticism arrose in the second century and then we see a merging of gnosticisism with its rejection of the body making an interpretation of these texts.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Cont
But am I wrong to imply that Mirza Hussain was not inspired by humanists or naturalists? His ultimate rejection of miracles happening except one, which I think solely because of the quran he was forced to accept otherwise he would be rejecting the quran, i think is proof enough of a naturalist outlook. God does not really perform miracles and he only did one and that miracle is not really an important proof of God’s great power. This of course goes against the bible which explicitely tells us the reason why God was fed up with the isrealites out of egypt is because he had shown himself by his miracles how great and terrible he was and they rejected it.

And indeed God’s understnading is above mens, but yours is not God’s understanding is it? Its a naturalists false prophets message is it? And if you take offense to that, try to respond to my points. Don’t just call me mean. But I suspect you are unable because your prophet was smart enough to not encourage debate because he knew his followers would be refuted.

 

[arthra]

In case the Baha’i view of miracles is misunderstood I will cite from Abdul-Baha the Baha’i view:

*"The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

"But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.

"For example, if we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: “Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.” He will also say: “How can we know that the Jews and the Christians 101 speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.” The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent.

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.”
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 99

It’s not so much that we deny miracles as that we say they are not sufficient as “proofs”.

In the same book cited above:

The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life – that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”[1]

[1 Matt. 8:22; John 3:6.]

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 100

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I beg to differ that the miracles within holy books have no importance. Need we forget Moses and the Israelites? What was the purpose of these miracles? Primarily to warn the Israelites of God’s great power and to put terrible fear and knowledge of the God of Israel in the hearts of the pagan Egyptians. This is God’s showing forth of himself to make himself known. Why was the Passover to be celebrated? Because he delivered his people from Egypt? And How did he deliver his people from Egypt? If your teachers are right, it doesn’t matter, but I suggest it does matter to the jew today and to the Christian who reads these texts. These are proofs whether bahai want to admit it, and they are important even if bahai want to ignore them.

He is correct to say the things about Christ and that his message was correct but were his miracles unimportant? If they were unimportant why do them? Why have Christ born of a virgin? Why have his apostles speak many languages which they knew not? Why does a God who says miracles are not important so consistently seem to engage in them? Why does merely touching the robe of Christ (or of an apostle for that matter) seem to heal people? The bahai message is not consistent with what was revealed before and there is no attempt to deal with these matters on an indepth level.
That being said, Paul seemed to consider the resurrection of Jesus being the ultimate proof of his faith. Ressurection not meaning a mere ascension into heaven as later centuries would have it, nor would the jewish world view of Paul permit the Dualistic outlook of the greek platonists (or bahai for that matter). Jesus says let the dead bury their dead, but he also raises Lazurus from the grave and weeps for him.

Also will there be any bahai attempt to respond to these questions? Also do bahai think the pope still needs to give up everything in Vatican city for the poor?

 

[meltzerboy]

I beg to differ that the miracles within holy books have no importance. Need we forget Moses and the Israelites? What was the purpose of these miracles? Primarily to warn the Israelites of God’s great power and to put terrible fear and knowledge of the God of Israel in the hearts of the pagan Egyptians. This is God’s showing forth of himself to make himself known. Why was the Passover to be celebrated? Because he delivered his people from Egypt? And How did he deliver his people from Egypt? If your teachers are right, it doesn’t matter, but I suggest it does matter to the jew today and to the Christian who reads these texts. These are proofs whether bahai want to admit it, and they are important even if bahai want to ignore them.

He is correct to say the things about Christ and that his message was correct but were his miracles unimportant? If they were unimportant why do them? Why have Christ born of a virgin? Why have his apostles speak many languages which they knew not? Why does a God who says miracles are not important so consistently seem to engage in them? Why does merely touching the robe of Christ (or of an apostle for that matter) seem to heal people? The bahai message is not consistent with what was revealed before and there is no attempt to deal with these matters on an indepth level.
That being said, Paul seemed to consider the resurrection of Jesus being the ultimate proof of his faith. Ressurection not meaning a mere ascension into heaven as later centuries would have it, nor would the jewish world view of Paul permit the Dualistic outlook of the greek platonists (or bahai for that matter). Jesus says let the dead bury their dead, but he also raises Lazurus from the grave and weeps for him.

Also will there be any bahai attempt to respond to these questions? Also do bahai think the pope still needs to give up everything in Vatican city for the poor?

OTOH, Jesus warns against miracles of deceit in Matthew, and so does Moses in Deuteronomy.

 

[grannymh]

Baha’is regard Jesus as a Manifestation of God…which for us means He had innate knowledge and perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity. We as Baha’is also accept the virgin birth of Jesus. The term “prophet” I think can have variable meanings to different people some would say Jesus was “just” a prophet… implying a dimunitive status … Jesus for us would be Someone who brought a new dispensation … an independent Prophet. I think Abdul-Baha focused on this very well in the following:

The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 164

Thank you for this informative reply.

My simple observation regarding the term “prophet” as in “Jesus was a prophet among prophets” is that prophet means that He was human which is not necessarily diminutive. Human would then designate His nature. Catholicism teaches that Jesus is both True Man and True God.

When you say that “Baha’is regard Jesus as a Manifestation of God…which for us means He had innate knowledge and perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity” – Am I correct that you do not consider the nature of Jesus to be divine, i.e., that He is God? I am basing that question on the words “Manifestation of God” and “perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity.”

It seems to me that one could truthfully say that in many religions, Jesus is considered a [worthy independent] prophet among prophets without implying anything negative. I would consider your religion as one of those which respect and follow the appropriate teachings of Jesus; yet, do not consider Jesus as God per se. Hopefully, I am only implying that His nature is human yet exulted.

 

[flameburns623]

We are also warned AGAINST seeking “signs and wonders” as a primary basis of faith.

Even in a Church which fervently believes in and has elaborate strategies for authenticating or falsifying miracles, we are taught that such things are not “proofs” for unbelievers so much as faith-affirming evidences for those who have already come to believe.

The point cited by Arthra is perfectly valid: pretending for a moment that my great-grandmother, whom I never knew, might have claimed that Smythe Wigglesworth raised he from the dead (Wigglesworth was a real faith healer, but no, my family never had any contact with him): even if this were something she had insisted had happened, something which in fact my own existence might have depended upon–I STILL do NOT have to believe that my great-grandmother experienced a miracle.

I can attribute her apparent rescuscitation to perfectly natural means–that she had swooned and the primitive medical practices failed to discern her faint signs of life until Smythe W. somehow roused her. My great-grandmother and all of those around her might have been convinced at the time. But I, at a century’s remove have, have no obligation to take their belief as my own.

With Biblical miracles, with the miracles which the Church authenticates, there is an effort to examine the evidence in such detail that naturalistic explanations fail to account for all evidence.

And yet: I am not, strictly speaking, required to believe in Fatima’s Miracle of the Sun, or the Shroud of Turin. I can be a good Catholic and ascribe naturalistic explanations to many of the stories of Scripture widely assumed as miraculous–but which are not specifically called miracles in Scripture nor defined as such by the Church.

My point being: miracles do not create faith, and while they can enlarge faith, they are not strictly required. If they were, the Devil’s Advocates who assist the investigation of miraculous claims would be ccommitting sins against faith by doing as the Church requires of them.

Hope this helps!

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

OTOH, Jesus warns against miracles of deceit in Matthew, and so does Moses in Deuteronomy.

What is the implication with this responce? That miracles don’t happen or that satanic forces can perform miracles? Bahai regaurd the existence of demons as supistition, so how can a miracle be false if it is an actual miracle? It must be from God.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

We are also warned AGAINST seeking “signs and wonders” as a primary basis of faith.

Even in a Church which fervently believes in and has elaborate strategies for authenticating or falsifying miracles, we are taught that such things are not “proofs” for unbelievers so much as faith-affirming evidences for those who have already come to believe.

The point cited by Arthra is perfectly valid: pretending for a moment that my great-grandmother, whom I never knew, might have claimed that Smythe Wigglesworth raised he from the dead (Wigglesworth was a real faith healer, but no, my family never had any contact with him): even if this were something she had insisted had happened, something which in fact my own existence might have depended upon–I STILL do NOT have to believe that my great-grandmother experienced a miracle.

I can attribute her apparent rescuscitation to perfectly natural means–that she had swooned and the primitive medical practices failed to discern her faint signs of life until Smythe W. somehow roused her. My great-grandmother and all of those around her might have been convinced at the time. But I, at a century’s remove have, have no obligation to take their belief as my own.

With Biblical miracles, with the miracles which the Church authenticates, there is an effort to examine the evidence in such detail that naturalistic explanations fail to account for all evidence.

And yet: I am not, strictly speaking, required to believe in Fatima’s Miracle of the Sun, or the Shroud of Turin. I can be a good Catholic and ascribe naturalistic explanations to many of the stories of Scripture widely assumed as miraculous–but which are not specifically called miracles in Scripture nor defined as such by the Church.

My point being: miracles do not create faith, and while they can enlarge faith, they are not strictly required. If they were, the Devil’s Advocates who assist the investigation of miraculous claims would be ccommitting sins against faith by doing as the Church requires of them.

Hope this helps!

Your entire faith is based on one great miracle alone, the ressurection without which you should throw away Christ. That being said I suppose the israelites were right to complain against Moses and question his authority, these were only natural events afterall.

 

[meltzerboy]

What is the implication with this responce? That miracles don’t happen or that satanic forces can perform miracles? Bahai regaurd the existence of demons as supistition, so how can a miracle be false if it is an actual miracle? It must be from God.

In Deuteronomy, Moses warns the Jewish people that they should beware of false prophets who lead the people to worship other gods, though they dream dreams and perform signs of wonder, that is, miracles.

 

[flameburns623]

There are miracles which are defined articles of Catholic faith. The Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection of Christ. There are events of Scripture which may have naturalistic explanations–the multiplying of loaves, which COULD HAVE BEEN a case where Christ’s preaching might have broken down walls of selfishness among peoples accustomed to secreting away food. (I happen NOT to share this view, btw).

My point is: while the Baha’i Faith does not deny that miracles occur, these miracles are really only truly wondrous to those who experience them directly. As someone else said, overstating the case but with a good measure of truth–to everyone thereafter, the account of a miracle is nothing but hearsay.

You seem wont to make the Baha’i Faith something less than it is. Well, that is your privilege. You and I share the conclusion that it falls short of the Fullness of Divine Truth. That aside–it remains admirable, whether you personally admire that Baha’i Faith or not. God Bless, Ignitio!

 

[flameburns623]

There are miracles which are defined articles of Catholic faith. The Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection of Christ. There are events of Scripture which may have naturalistic explanations–the multiplying of loaves, which COULD HAVE BEEN a case where Christ’s preaching might have broken down walls of selfishness among peoples accustomed to secreting away food. (I happen NOT to share this view, btw).

My point is: while the Baha’i Faith does not deny that miracles occur, these miracles are really only truly wondrous to those who experience them directly. As someone else said, overstating the case but with a good measure of truth–to everyone thereafter, the account of a miracle is nothing but hearsay.

You seem wont to make the Baha’i Faith something less than it is. Well, that is your privilege. You and I share the conclusion that it falls short of the Fullness of Divine Truth. That aside–it remains admirable, whether you personally admire that Baha’i Faith or not. God Bless, Ignitio!

 

[daler]

When you say that “Baha’is regard Jesus as a Manifestation of God…which for us means He had innate knowledge and perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity” – Am I correct that you do not consider the nature of Jesus to be divine, i.e., that He is God? I am basing that question on the words “Manifestation of God” and “perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity.”

If we look at Jesus, son of Mary, we see a human like ourselves, made of dust. This dust forms the physical body, which is not God. The One Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am.”, existed before Abraham, who existed before Jesus, right? Hence, that eternal Voice was also before “Jesus”, son of Mary.
God “manifests” His attributes according the capacity of His creatures, in a Person like ourselves, but One Who reflects to us the true “Image” of God. This is not a physical description, for God needs no hands, feet, hair, etc. That is a “person”, and God is infinitely beyond personhood, in any physical form, or what can be enclosed (?) within a suit of flesh.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived… He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His mission than the proof of His Own Person.”

“The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being [God] hath ever been, and will continue to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.” Baha’u’llah

 

[daler]

There are miracles which are defined articles of Catholic faith. The Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection of Christ. There are events of Scripture which may have naturalistic explanations–the multiplying of loaves, which COULD HAVE BEEN a case where Christ’s preaching might have broken down walls of selfishness among peoples accustomed to secreting away food. (I happen NOT to share this view, btw).

I once heard a minister point out that the first thing Jesus said to His disciples was to “share” the loaves and fishes with this crowd of strangers, and that in doing so, He “taught” them to become their brother’s keepers, to Identify with all people, and this, to me, is a much greater miracle, to transform the hearts of men, and revolutionize society on a social/spiritual level of “belonging” to each other. There was food left over, and “selfishness” was recognized as not being part of “the Way, the Truth, and the Life” which Jesus was showing them.
This would parallel the story of the good Samaritan, and reflect the purpose of Christ as a Divine Educator, elevating our capacity to care for one another, a quality latent within us but not yet manifested in our behavior. He came to change our behavior from selfish, immature, creatures to true spiritual human beings.