Baha'i :"But who do you say that I am?"

[GaryTaylor]

Why believe the Church?

"This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.

What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her “Church.”

The mysteries of the Church are present in the Church, and as stated above even for those who are starting their journey through the Incarnation to the Cross and finally divinization as witnessed in the Transfiguration, they can make the journey with faith as the Creed recited in belief indicates. The Church doesn’t require all intellects as the faithful indicate in their witness to the Lord.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vatican.va%2Farchive%2Fccc_css%2Farchive%2Fcatechism%2Fp123a9p3.htm&ei=ASeHVJzfDsmrgwSMjYH4Dg&usg=AFQjCNEyH-xvsWoA0aKPdDzvQKlFgceQcA

 

[GaryTaylor]

As I too believe that Baha’u’llah, also is the Incarnate Word of God…so why does my belief get oppressed?.

Where does it get suppressed, its in fact acknowledged by the Church in its understanding of One God which of course we recite in the Creed. Course I think you know the issue with the Incarnation and it also understood as you express with an unknown

That same recognition process exists today with Baha’u’llah. Why is the belief of Jesus as the Incarnate Word of God oppressing the same belief in Baha’u’llah?.

Whos suppressing him? You mean Gods Word suppressed him? Again the Incarnation is known.

I don’t reject Jesus as the Incarnate Word of God…

Semantics which don’t progress the conversation.

Unlike Christianity, the Baha’i Faith makes a distinction between God in His Essence and God’s Word (which is the First Emanation from His Essence).

Yes and unable to elaborate in which the conversation at this point is circular. They only suggest what God cannot do. According to whom and where it this articulated for us to read. The counter point has been linked.

The premise as I see is here…

quibbling over the things unknown,

Point being you are telling us what God can not do and admitting the above. With no elaboration btw. While I showed you how we could know. So why persecute our belief when you do not know? Is your source of not knowing so disturbing you must reject what you do not know?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Is this how you make conclusions through implications which are not there, Randy?



Where on earth did you read that I said Jesus had no impact on people?

Servant, it appears that you are now trying to wiggle out of the contradiction found in your own statements. In your first post, you stated,

"If you were a Jew in the year 32AD, and you met Jesus face to face, would you have embraced Him? Would His name have “cut right through you”?

The point you were trying to make is that if you had passed Jesus on the street in downtown Jerusalem, would you have recognized him as God? The answer you were anticipating was, “No.”

But I didn’t answer as you expected. I gave you examples of people recognizing that Jesus WAS special. Since you couldn’t deny them, you quickly moved to assert that Baha’u’llah had lots of interactions just like that.

So, in your eagerness to affirm that Baha’u’llah had the same (or even greater) personal presence as Jesus, you have unwittingly contracicted your first assertion that Jesus would not have appeared to be anything special to “a Jew in the year 32AD.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

…

Might I just add, Baha’u’llah has EVERY impact on how I live my life.

No one doubts your sincerity. We just doubt whether it is well-placed.

I mean, you do realize that the followers of David Koresh would have said the same thing about him, right?

 

[GaryTaylor]

If you should leave a man uneducated and barbarous in the wilds of Africa, would there be any doubt about his remaining ignorant? God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.

O Muhammad! The Decree of thy Lord was fulfilled four years ago; and ever since the inception of the Cause of thy Lord I have warned thee to fear God and not to be of the ignorant. I dispatched a messenger unto thee with a truly resplendent Tablet, but the followers of the devil turned him away disdainfully and interposed themselves between him and thee. They expelled him from the land whereof thou art the undisputed sovereign. Thus hath the good of this world and of the next escaped thee, unless thou submit to the commandment ordained by God and be of them that are rightly guided.

The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 24

Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CD8QFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.religionfacts.com%2Fbahai%2Fcomparison_chart.htm&ei=iD2HVJivE4jYggS7sYM4&usg=AFQjCNHxerOaW4XVHRHBJ4HNCz4mawEl9Q

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbahai-invitation.com%2FChristian%2F1angels.html&ei=iD2HVJivE4jYggS7sYM4&usg=AFQjCNHbAeFDk5H0qC3iOl0JSJS866jQIg

If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDkQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbahaiteachings.org%2Fevil-spirits-angels-psychic-powers-and-aliens&ei=iD2HVJivE4jYggS7sYM4&usg=AFQjCNHd5bc3YjFI0qNkkbpuJQP8rGSrPw

Lots of new questions. :sad_yes:

 

[Techno2000]

You never answer my questions brother

…I understand…

…the point is not for people to say good things about the Church, it’s finding stories where they are impacted to such an extent that other people in society take notice.

You don’t have 10?

What about you being a Jew. Would you have embraced Jesus?

(if I keep asking you questions twice, it’ll be a long loooooooong thread)

.

Servant19 you are correct I can’t find 100 or even 10 people online who say with great detail that their live have been changed because of Scientology.

What about you being a Jew. Would you have embraced Jesus?

I don’t know I might have been a Reprobate predestined for Hell so I might not have embraced him.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Even Einstein called the unknown mystery God and knew how to behave, course behavior in relation to good and bad is determined by who the psychologist in whatever country you live? Whats the universal moral law? No consensus yet?

 

[Techno2000]

Thankyou for sharing this prayer. I must say I had never come across it till now.

It seems to be a very mystical and symbolic prayer by Baha’u’llah.

The snow and fire seem to reflect the yearning of sincere souls, the true lovers of God, to find their Beloved. The snow representing the snow white purity of such souls, and the fire representing the soul which is ablaze with the love of God.

This is my personal understanding of course

Its a beautiful prayer…

.

So all these writings of Baha’u’llah are now just prayers that he says to himself… who is the “Thou” he is talking about ?

 

[Techno2000]

Thankyou for sharing this prayer. I must say I had never come across it till now.

It seems to be a very mystical and symbolic prayer by Baha’u’llah.

The snow and fire seem to reflect the yearning of sincere souls, the true lovers of God, to find their Beloved. The snow representing the snow white purity of such souls, and the fire representing the soul which is ablaze with the love of God.

This is my personal understanding of course

Its a beautiful prayer…

.

So we see that just 1 sentence by Baha’u’llah causes confusion what about the other million sentences ?

 

[WilT]

it is safe to say Bahaullah is not Jesus or anyone related to Jesus either physically or spiritually.

why do I say this? because what comes from Bahaullah contradicts most of what comes from Jesus.

knowing the above, I say Bahaullah is a sinful man just like the rest of us and since he rejects the teachings of the Christ and tries to sell people on contradictory teachings he is more a man in the mode of joseph smith and mohammed than in the mode of the ONLY SON OF GOD.

Interesting.

 

[Techno2000]

Do you know you may be sent to hell for attempting to draw people away from God almighty. Be therefore very careful for you will be finding yourself in the pool of eternal fire. Don’t chase after false gods when you have a Loving and Merciful God at hand.

This is not a problem for the Baha’i people, because they don’t believe in a Devil,Satan or Hell.

The Bahá’í Faith does not therefore accept the concept of “original sin” or any related doctrine which considers that people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development. In the same way, the Bahá’í teachings deny the existence of Satan, a devil, or an “evil force.” Evil, it is explained, is the absence of good; darkness is the absence of light; cold is the absence of heat. Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.
info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-9.html

 

[WilT]

This is not a problem for the Baha’i people, because they don’t believe in a Devil,Satan or Hell.

The Bahá’í Faith does not therefore accept the concept of “original sin” or any related doctrine which considers that people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development. In the same way, the Bahá’í teachings deny the existence of Satan, a devil, or an “evil force.” Evil, it is explained, is the absence of good; darkness is the absence of light; cold is the absence of heat. Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.
info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-9.html

If so denying the Devil and sin it becomes a free for all. Anything goes attitude which is dangerous to ones soul because eventually if the Devil doesn’t exist neither will God exist. This is a dangerous direction this faith is taking.

 

[Servant19]

If so denying the Devil and sin it becomes a free for all. Anything goes attitude which is dangerous to ones soul because eventually if the Devil doesn’t exist neither will God exist. This is a dangerous direction this faith is taking.

This Faith has been around for 180 years.

There has been nothing but love and service that has come forth from it.

We do not proselytize, nor do we fight, even if tortured by our enemies (as has been seen by the Baha’is in Iran), yet it is still the fastest growing religion on the planet.

It is also the second most widespread religion geographically on the planet, after Christianity.

I think it is doing just fine without the concept of an entity called the Devil in existence, thankyou

.

 

[Servant19]

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CD8QFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.religionfacts.com%2Fbahai%2Fcomparison_chart.htm&ei=iD2HVJivE4jYggS7sYM4&usg=AFQjCNHxerOaW4XVHRHBJ4HNCz4mawEl9Q

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbahai-invitation.com%2FChristian%2F1angels.html&ei=iD2HVJivE4jYggS7sYM4&usg=AFQjCNHbAeFDk5H0qC3iOl0JSJS866jQIg

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDkQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbahaiteachings.org%2Fevil-spirits-angels-psychic-powers-and-aliens&ei=iD2HVJivE4jYggS7sYM4&usg=AFQjCNHd5bc3YjFI0qNkkbpuJQP8rGSrPw

Lots of new questions. :sad_yes:

Feel free to ask them

Baha’i theology is not dependent on Church interpretations of the text, nor is it dependent on Islamic interpretations of the Quran.

Christianity is not dependent on Rabbinic interpretation of the Torah.

Baha’i theology is a whole system in itself, and it complies much better than all other religions of the past with reason. Pretty much everything is compliant with logic and reason in the Baha’i Writings

.

.

 

[WilT]

This Faith has been around for 180 years.

There has been nothing but love and service that has come forth from it.

We do not proselytize, nor do we fight, even if tortured by our enemies (as has been seen by the Baha’is in Iran), yet it is still the fastest growing religion on the planet.

It is also the second most widespread religion geographically on the planet, after Christianity.

I think it is doing just fine without the concept of an entity called the Devil in existence, thankyou

.

With all do respect Servant19, it appears to be a man-made religion and it may be built on sand not stone.

 

[Servant19]

With all do respect Servant19, it appears to be a man-made religion and it may be built on sand not stone.

Based on what evidence?

The miracles of the Baha’i Faith I have witnessed seem to testify against that accusation

.

 

[arthra]

I’m aware that for many Dante’s Inferno may still hold some attraction…

I was on a Christian forum a few years ago and took a poll… How many believed in Satan… In turned out a majority believed in Satan. My view is that a belief in Satan goes along with a belief in the supernatural that many people have… Satan and devils can take possession of people and this was an explanation for many ancient people that such conditions as epilepsy and maybe schizophrenia and such were caused by supernatural entities…

Believing in a dark power is a convenient was to mischaracterise your enemies as well… Recall Mark 3:22 where the Pharisees alleged Jesus was possessed?

But the teachers of religious law who had arrived from Jerusalem said, "He’s possessed by Satan, the prince of demons. That’s where he gets the power to cast out demons."

The other issue that comes up is that some describe themselves as Satanists and adopt for themselves various rituals and symbols of what they believe are various powers.

In the Baha’i Faith there is no such acceptance of these malevolent and dark powers… I recall researching that the struggle between good and evil that is embraced by many may have it’s origin in Manichaeism which was very strong at the time of Saint Augustine.

But anyway so there is no misunderstanding about this as far as the Baha’i Faith is concerned I add a few citations from the Writings:

The attributes of God are love and mercy; the attribute of Satan is hate. Therefore, he who is merciful and kind to his fellowmen is manifesting the divine attribute, and **he who is hating and hostile toward a fellow creature is satanic. **God is absolute love, even as Jesus Christ has declared, and Satan is utter hatred. Wherever love is witnessed, know that there is a manifestation of God’s mercy; whenever you meet hatred and enmity, know that these are the evidences and attributes of Satan. The Prophets have appeared in this world with the mission that human souls may become the expressions of the Merciful, that they may be educated and developed, attain to love and amity and establish peace and agreement.

• Abdul-Baha Promulgation of Universal Peace
  reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PUP/pup-16.html.utf8?query=satan&action=highlight#gr3

When the light of Bahá’u’lláh dawned from the East, He proclaimed the promise of the oneness of humanity. He addressed all mankind, saying, “Ye are all the fruits of one tree. There are not two trees: one a tree of divine mercy, the other the tree of Satan.” Again He said, “Ye are all the fruits of one tree, the leaves of one branch.” This was His announcement; this was His promise of the oneness of the world of humanity. Anathema and execration were utterly abrogated. He said, “It is not becoming in man to curse another; it is not befitting that man should attribute darkness to another; it is not meet that one human being should consider another human being as bad; nay, rather, all mankind are the servants of one God; God is the Father of all; there is not a single exception to that law.** There are no people of Satan; all belong to the Merciful. There is no darkness; all is light. All are the servants of God, and man must love humanity from his heart. He must, verily, behold humanity as submerged in the divine mercy.”**

~ Abdul-Baha Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 286

In the Baha’i view there is no such thing as an ontological being such as Satan or the devil opposed to God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Based on what evidence?

The miracles of the Baha’i Faith I have witnessed seem to testify against that accusation

.

But not all “miracles” are from God. :nope:

Acts 8:9-11
9 Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, 10 and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is rightly called the Great Power of God.” 11 They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery.

Everyone was impressed by this sorcerer. But he was not from God.

 

[Servant19]

But not all “miracles” are from God. :nope:

Acts 8:9-11
9 Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, 10 and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is rightly called the Great Power of God.” 11 They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery.

Everyone was impressed by this sorcerer. But he was not from God.

So how do you know Jesus was not actually Satan, the ultimate sorcerer?

.

 

[Servant19]

I’m aware that for many Dante’s Inferno may still hold some attraction…

I was on a Christian forum a few years ago and took a poll… How many believed in Satan… In turned out a majority believed in Satan. My view is that a belief in Satan goes along with a belief in the supernatural that many people have… Satan and devils can take possession of people and this was an explanation for many ancient people that such conditions as epilepsy and maybe schizophrenia and such were caused by supernatural entities…

Believing in a dark power is a convenient was to mischaracterise your enemies as well… Recall Mark 3:22 where the Pharisees alleged Jesus was possessed?

But the teachers of religious law who had arrived from Jerusalem said, "He’s possessed by Satan, the prince of demons. That’s where he gets the power to cast out demons."

The other issue that comes up is that some describe themselves as Satanists and adopt for themselves various rituals and symbols of what they believe are various powers.

In the Baha’i Faith there is no such acceptance of these malevolent and dark powers… I recall researching that the struggle between good and evil that is embraced by many may have it’s origin in Manichaeism which was very strong at the time of Saint Augustine.

But anyway so there is no misunderstanding about this as far as the Baha’i Faith is concerned I add a few citations from the Writings:

The attributes of God are love and mercy; the attribute of Satan is hate. Therefore, he who is merciful and kind to his fellowmen is manifesting the divine attribute, and **he who is hating and hostile toward a fellow creature is satanic. **God is absolute love, even as Jesus Christ has declared, and Satan is utter hatred. Wherever love is witnessed, know that there is a manifestation of God’s mercy; whenever you meet hatred and enmity, know that these are the evidences and attributes of Satan. The Prophets have appeared in this world with the mission that human souls may become the expressions of the Merciful, that they may be educated and developed, attain to love and amity and establish peace and agreement.

• Abdul-Baha Promulgation of Universal Peace
  reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PUP/pup-16.html.utf8?query=satan&action=highlight#gr3

When the light of Bahá’u’lláh dawned from the East, He proclaimed the promise of the oneness of humanity. He addressed all mankind, saying, “Ye are all the fruits of one tree. There are not two trees: one a tree of divine mercy, the other the tree of Satan.” Again He said, “Ye are all the fruits of one tree, the leaves of one branch.” This was His announcement; this was His promise of the oneness of the world of humanity. Anathema and execration were utterly abrogated. He said, “It is not becoming in man to curse another; it is not befitting that man should attribute darkness to another; it is not meet that one human being should consider another human being as bad; nay, rather, all mankind are the servants of one God; God is the Father of all; there is not a single exception to that law.** There are no people of Satan; all belong to the Merciful. There is no darkness; all is light. All are the servants of God, and man must love humanity from his heart. He must, verily, behold humanity as submerged in the divine mercy.”**

~ Abdul-Baha Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 286

In the Baha’i view there is no such thing as an ontological being such as Satan or the devil opposed to God.

This is a great post Art



.