Bahai Faith

[BruceDLimber]

(PART THREE)

Mickey:

The moral philosophy of Jesus is fundamentally different than the principles taught by Muhammad. For example, Jesus said we should love and forgive our enemies and remain peaceful despite persecution, whereas Muhammad instructed his followers to forcibly convert, subjugate, or kill the unbelievers by the power of the sword. The Baha’i Faith teaches that both Jesus and Muhammad were infallibly inspired by God in all their teachings, but their teachings are contradictory on the most basic issues. Therefore, the Baha’i Faith is wrong, and cannot be the truth revealed by God.

I’m sorry, but your statement echoes a lie, pure and simple!

Muhammad did NOT advocate such things and allowed only defensive warfare. Indeed, the Qur’an says (in 2:256) “Let there be no compulsion in religion!” And it also says quite clearly that in a fight, if the opponent puts down his weapon, the Muslim must immediately do likewise.

So these teachings are not in fact contradictory.

And meaning no offense, as your premise is therefore false, your conclusion is therefore worthless.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[lehket]

Mickey:

I have read that the bahai faith is extremely authoritarian with cult-like tendencies. Also, that there is a historical leadership crisis and sectarian split over the issue of Guadianship.

I’m probably going to have to drop out of here soon due to time constraints, but I did want to offer a few comments on this.

First, one should never believe anything one reads on the Internet. There is so much misinformation out there. That, of course, is to be qualified by an observation my father once made, namely that all generalizations, including this one, are false.

There are a lot of people spreading misinformation about the Baha’i Faith on the Internet, for a variety of reasons. Some of them are evangelicals who want to prove that the Baha’i Faith is a false religion. Some are Islamic enemies of the Baha’i Faith, with a similar mission. Some are ex-Baha’is with axes (occasionally real but usually inflated rubber axes) to grind.

So one does have to be a bit careful about these reports. I’m not saying that the Baha’i community is all sweetness and light. No human community is. The Catholic Church itself is not. That’s because human communities are made up of human beings, and we all know that human beings are not perfect. So merely because there are some problems in a religious community doesn’t mean that the religion itself is “false”. If so, then all religions are false and only atheists are correct.

Second, yes, there have been what you call “historical leadership crises” in the Baha’i Faith. Just like, hmmmm, in the Christian community. The difference is that Jesus did not undertake to provide any details of how His followers should organize and administer the Christian faith, whereas Baha’u’llah did undertake such measures. He provided the framework for the administrative structure of the Faith and in writing appointed His son 'Abdu’l-Baha to be His successor and the authorized Interpreter of His Writings. These are among the provisions of Baha’u’llah’s Covenant (a Covenant foreshadowed in the Book of Revelation, but that’s another story) with His followers.

What has happened, then, is that a very few individuals, at key points in the history of the Baha’i Faith, have been corrupted by lust for power and sought to usurp the authority that Baha’u’llah placed in His Institutions. There was a challenge to 'Abdu’l-Baha’s authority. The challenger went so far as to try to alter the texts of Baha’u’llah’s Writings to make them fit his own spurious claim to leadership, but he was exposed in the attempt. There was a challenge to Shoghi Effendi’s leadership when 'Abdu’l-Baha appointed him Guardian of the Baha’i Faith. There was a spurious claim to be Shoghi Effendi’s successor, put forward by an individual who fit none of the qualifications specified in the Baha’i Writings. These usurpers managed to attract a handful of followers, but these groups have never managed to grow significantly, and most have either faded away or undergone subsequent schisms as a result of the infighting of their leaders.

Meanwhile, the Institutions which Baha’u’llah created have been established around the world and are overseeing the growth of the Baha’i community. Although we are still learning how to make many aspects of this machinery work and mistakes do happen (a fact which should surprise nobody), those who claim that it is somehow “authoritarian” or “cult-like” are quite mistaken.

Baha’is are essentially just like the people next door. (Some of them may literally be the people next door.) We have families, hold down jobs, try to do good in the world to the extent that we can. I’m a software developer. I have five children and two grandchildren. I have served for almost 10 years on my Local Spiritual Assembly, although I don’t consider myself worthy of the post. (The community keeps electing me, so I do my best to serve. But if they didn’t elect me next time, I would not be in the least bit dismayed. Indeed, I’d probably be relieved to have a break from it!) My goal is not to lord it over anyone or make a name for myself. I just want to do what I can to live a good life and help a few others along the way in such wise as I can.

If I’m part of a mind-controlling, authoritarian cult, I have to say it’s doing a very poor job of it, because I never noticed!

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again, Flame!

flameburns623:

So it is within the plan of God that human beings would fall and need a Redeemer, and God foreknew this from the outset of His creation?

I agree with what Dale said about this, and will add the following:

The Baha’i scriptures assure us that we’re born inherently good. They then go on to say that spiritual education must ensue to enable us both to stay good and to develop the virtues we’ll need both here and in the Next Life.

Also, God endowed each of us with free will. So it’s entirely up to each of us whether or not we follow His commandmandments and laws or not! Sin not being inherited (so say both the Bible and the Baha’i scriptures), we can thus choose to “fall” or not.

Nor is He cullpable because He gave us free will. Please consider this analogy: Let’s say you’re in a helicopter flying above a mountainous area with a train. From your viewpoint, you can see ahead and notice a landslide that threatens to derail the train if it continues unaltered. Are you therefore culpable because this may happen? Clearly not! And I put it to you that God is likewise not responsible for the decisions we choose to make.

And the Baha’i scriptures make it quite clear that the Plan of God is for everyone to grow spiritually and fulfill his or her spiritual potential! I trust you agree the Bible teaches the same thing.

Dale>I think it’s helpful if we can drop the “my religion is better than your religion” garbage and just try to get along as members of one human family, the way Jesus and Baha’u’llah and Krishna and the Buddha and Muhammad and Zoroaster and all of those other great religious teachers actually wanted us to.

I agree with Dale about this, too, and will note that you haven’t been one of the parties guilty of this, I’m happy to say!

(Finally, as an aside, BTW, the central teachings of ALL the great religions are far more similar than most people realize! You’ve probably already seen the set of multiple religions’ “but by Me” quotes that were posted here: this is in fact just one of a whole set of quotes from the scriptures of these religions demonstrating this commonality. If you’d like to see the rest, please let me know.)

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Lillith]

A few Questions…since you seem very agreeable to them.

Judaism, Muslems, and Christianity…I have heard said and find it plausable are branches of the same tree. BUT, while I have not read the Koran, I understand that there is room for the interpretation of Jihad…which is very much not what Christ taught. How or why is that happening?

Hindu and Buddists…believe in reincarnation…how do you believe? Reincarnation or no? They also do not believe in Hell…what say you?

 

[arthra]

flameburns623:

Wish someone had told me that sooner. Oh well, the poll can still be fun. Just post any relevant observations in the thread.

I wonder Flame if you could post the information on that Mormon board for me as I haven’t been able to register there as yet…

Simply point out that the “Prophecy Fulfilled” Site is not an official Baha’i site.

I really don’t want to stir up any unecessary resentment from Mormons…

When I get a chance later after I’m registered maybe I can clarify more over there.

Thanks!

• Art

 

[arthra]

Lillith:

A few Questions…since you seem very agreeable to them.

Judaism, Muslems, and Christianity…I have heard said and find it plausable are branches of the same tree. BUT, while I have not read the Koran, I understand that there is room for the interpretation of Jihad…which is very much not what Christ taught. How or why is that happening?

Hindu and Buddists…believe in reincarnation…how do you believe? Reincarnation or no? They also do not believe in Hell…what say you?

Thanks for the questions Lillith!

There are probably rough parallels between the concept of Jihad and a “just war” that was also accept by the church.

Jihad was authorized because Muslims were at forst under attack from the Meccan pagan community and later exiled from Mecca itself to Medina where they received refuge… A large army of Pagans then attempted to completely annihilate the Musims. So in that context Muslims were permitted to defend their faith defensively.

Later the Imam Ali also indicated there were spiritual standards for those who were involved in a Jihad and that in his time very few Muslims were spiritually able to qualify for a Jihad.

Early battles were generally defensive in nature. It’s true though the concept of Jihad became abused later and was used to justify aggressive wars but this was long after the time the Prophet was on this earth.

What has upset some Muslims is that Baha’u’llah abrogated Jihad even in a defensive war…so Baha’is are not permitted to defend our Faith even by force of arms. We are also supposed to be non-combatants.

Reincarnation:

Briefly, we believe this doctrine was based on a misunderstanding of the cycle of nature that peopel generally observe. Baha’is do not accept this doctrine. We believe the attributes return but not the soul.

There a few important differences between those who hold reincarnation say between Buddhists and Hindus and so on… but anyway… we Baha’is do not subscribe to it.

• Art

 

[arthra]

Mickey wrote:

The Baha’i Faith claims approximately six million members scattered throughout the world, but it is unclear how many of these people actually hold all the beliefs necessary to qualify as a committed member.

My comment:

Baha’is in the United States, Canada and other countries are probably better accounted for as we require formal membership cards to attend Conventions and so I think this should be noted. Soem parts of the world though do not have formal membership roles for their own protection as in Iran where the faith is illegal.

Basically all one has to do to be a Baha’i is to acknowledge Baha’u’llah as a Lord of the age and that there are certain laws and institutions that should be obeyed.

Mickey:

Based on known patterns and methods of conversion in different countries and demographic groups, independent scholars have estimated that the published Baha’i membership statistics are wildly inflated.

My reply:

All we can say is that in some countries Baha’is membership is estimated but one good was to ascertain the size of the Faith in some of these countries is the number of Spiritual Assemblies…there are about ten thousand Assemblies world wide… Here nine adult believers are required to form an Assembly.

Mickey:

The Baha’i Faith is dominated by a small group of hard-core believers concentrated in wealthy countries, primarily America;

Comment:

Actually representatives from each Natiopnal Spiritual Assembly elects the Universal House of Justice every five years. Our system of administration is really very democratic from the local to the natioanl and international levels with regular elections.

Mickey:

a large indigenous population in Iran that is suppressed by the fundamentalist Muslim government, many of whom have already emigrated to escape persecution; a significant number of new Baha’is in India; and some inroads being made in other parts of the developing world, reinforced by Baha’i missionaries (called “pioneers” or “travel teachers”) from the West and Iran.

comment:

Pretty accurate as far as it goes Mickey… We Baha’is though would not associate with the term Missionary as that is more of a Christian term… but that would probably as close as you would come to it using your terminology.

• Art

 

[Glory_be_to_God]

Mickey:

Perhaps some of the bahai’s on this forum could address these two statements I found on the internet:

1. 
   *]Jesus was able to perform supernatural miracles including healing people of terrible diseases, reviving a dead man, and himself rising from the dead in the resurrection and appearing to his disciples in a literal, visible way. These things were recorded by reliable eyewitnesses in the Gospels and were always understood by the Christian church to be real, not merely metaphorical as Baha’is believe. Baha’u’llah never was able to do the amazing things Jesus did, yet he claimed to be the return of Christ. This doesn’t make any sense, because Jesus said he would return with even greater power than before. Jesus warned about false christs coming in the future, and it seems that Baha’u’llah was one of them.
   *]The moral philosophy of Jesus is fundamentally different than the principles taught by Muhammad. For example, Jesus said we should love and forgive our enemies and remain peaceful despite persecution, whereas Muhammad instructed his followers to forcibly convert, subjugate, or kill the unbelievers by the power of the sword. The Baha’i Faith teaches that both Jesus and Muhammad were infallibly inspired by God in all their teachings, but their teachings are contradictory on the most basic issues. Therefore, the Baha’i Faith is wrong, and cannot be the truth revealed by God.

1. 
   Peace be Unto You.
   
   This is just my opinion but I don’t see how miracles are a proof of being a true Prophet. Does it not say in the Bible that the Magicians of Pharoah were able to deceive the people with their magic? Does it not have numerous false Prophets within the text stating that they tried to prove their prophethood through miracles? Furthermore I remember Jesus saying “an adulterous nation is seeking after a sign”.
   
   The Jews had similar beliefs and that is why they rejected Jesus. They said that this man can not be the Messiah because He has no power. The Messiah is going to be ruling the throne of David and smiting the enemies of God. He did not do this. Furthermore he was from Galilee, and “No Prophet comes from Galilee”.
   
   Jesus didn’t do any of these things literally. And they asked him to do miracles and he did, and then they said that he was doing magic.
   
   Interpreting the text literally caused the Jews to reject Jesus, is what I am saying. They had a Prophet named Elijah who they believed **literally ** ascended to heaven on a fiery chariot, and was going to literally descend down from heaven at the time of the Messiah. This did not happen so they said that Jesus could not be the Messiah. Jesus said that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah, and they asked him if he was and he said he was not. So they went back to Jesus and Jesus said that John the Baptist was the **Spiritual return ** of Elijah…
   
   It seems to me that Christianity began at its very outset as a spiritual, metaphorical interpretation of Jewish Literalism and that was the reason fo rbeing rejected by the Jews…
   
   Why is it now ok for Christianity to interpret everything literally and reject Baha’u’llah because he didn’t literally fulfill these things?
   
   That’s just my question for everyone, and it is not meant to be provocative or pressing, its just my question.
   
   Peace,

 

[Lillith]

arthra:

Thanks for the questions Lillith!

You are welcome sir.

Arthra:

There are probably rough parallels between the concept of Jihad and a “just war” that was also accept by the church.

True…But Jesus the Christ never instituted the just war concept…Muhammed did. Still…a huge difference, besides the fact that Jesus was God and Muhammed a prophet

Arthra:

What has upset some Muslims is that Baha’u’llah abrogated Jihad even in a defensive war…so Baha’is are not permitted to defend our Faith even by force of arms. We are also supposed to be non-combatants.

So I take it Baha’u’llah sided with God (Jesus)

Arthra:

Reincarnation:
Briefly, we believe this doctrine was based on a misunderstanding of the cycle of nature that peopel generally observe. Baha’is do not accept this doctrine. We believe the attributes return but not the soul.
There a few important differences between those who hold reincarnation say between Buddhists and Hindus and so on… but anyway… we Baha’is do not subscribe to it.Art

This is what I am gathering…sorry you won’t like it:
I have come to the conclusion that Baha’is simply take those parts of messianic prophecy from other religions they like, and discard the rest as ‘uninspired’…But thanks for the lesson anyway.

 

[Glory_be_to_God]

Lillith:

A few Questions…since you seem very agreeable to them.

Judaism, Muslems, and Christianity…I have heard said and find it plausable are branches of the same tree. BUT, while I have not read the Koran, I understand that there is room for the interpretation of Jihad…which is very much not what Christ taught. How or why is that happening?

Hindu and Buddists…believe in reincarnation…how do you believe? Reincarnation or no? They also do not believe in Hell…what say you?

Peace Be Unto You

Jihad is in every Messenger’s teaching, including Jesus. The meaning of Jihad and none of its branches means holy war.

The meaning of the word; ‘jihad’; Ar. from the root ‘jahada’,to struggle; assert oneself, as in “making great effort to arrive at a conclusion as to the meaning and interpretation of Islamic Law (ijtihad)”; strive, as in, “striving to complete a monumental task (jahed)”; “jihad” lit. 'The struggle to attain the objective.] (islamtomorrow.com/kill.asp)

Every Prophet teaches His followers to strive against their base desires, to strive to be righteous, making a great effort to be pure.

Now, Jihad CAN be a military struggle against an enemy in Islam, but it is not the meaning of the word itself. Furthermore, I believe there is instances in this military struggle against people who seek to harm Jesus in the Gospel itself.

“When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?” And they said, “Nothing” Then said he unto them, “But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one!”

(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:35-36

“. . . Lord, behold, here are two swords.” And he said unto them, “It is enough”.

(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:38

I see no other reason for this other than to prepare to defend themselves.

It is my view that the culture and envrionment that Muhammad lived in was drastically different than that of Jesus, and that Muhammad’s military campaigns were inevitable and justifiable. 'Abdu’l-Baha, the son of Baha’u’llah says it better than me and that is why I am going to quote him. (by the way if you find the Bahaies are quoting too much stuff to you and it is over-burdening you, let us know, we don not mean to push points onto you)

*Muhammad received the Divine Revelation among these tribes, and after enduring thirteen years of persecution from them, He fled.But this people did not cease to oppress; they united to exterminate Him and all His followers. It was under such circumstances that Muhammad was forced to take up arms.

This is the truth: we are not bigoted and do not wish to defend Him, but we are just, and we say what is just. Look at it with justice. If Christ Himself had been placed in such circumstances among such tyrannical and barbarous tribes, and if for thirteen years He with His disciples had endured all these trials with patience, culminating in flight from His native land–if in spite of this these lawless tribes continued to pursue Him, to slaughter the men, to pillage their property, and to capture their women and children–what would have been Christ’s conduct with regard to them?

If this oppression had fallen only upon Himself, He would have forgiven them, and such an act of forgiveness would have been most praiseworthy; but if He had seen that these cruel and bloodthirsty murderers wished to kill, to pillage and to injure all these oppressed ones, and to take captive the women and children, it is certain that He would have protected them and would have resisted the tyrants. What objection, then, can be taken to Muhammad’s action?

Is it this, that He did not, with His followers, and their women and children, submit to these savage tribes? To free these tribes from their bloodthirstiness was the greatest kindness, and to coerce and restrain them was a true mercy. They were like a man holding in his hand a cup of poison, which, when about to drink, a friend breaks and thus saves him.

If Christ had been placed in similar circumstances, it is certain that with a conquering power He would have delivered the men, women and children from the claws of these bloodthirsty wolves. *

Peace

 

[Glory_be_to_God]

"If I could make a very obscure, rough, and imprecise analogy: it is rather like the split between the Old Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church. Since few folks (Catholic or Baha’i) know much about the Old Catholics here are the basics: some centuries ago, whilst the Reformation was raging in Germany, the Archbishop of Ultrecht was accused of being a Jansenist heretic, (a sort of Calvinist). The Archbishop denied the charge of Jansenism, but the label stuck. The Pope sacked the Archbishop and the Archbishop declined to step down for several years. Upon the Archbishop’s resignation, the Archdiocese refused to accept the new leadership appointed by Rome and brought in their own leaders instead. The Old Catholic Church is not Protestant but Catholic; it resembles the Roman Catholic Church but is not identical to it. Each side claims the other has overstepped it’s authority. "

Peace be unto You

I would say that this is not the case with the Bahai leadership tensions that occured. There was not a huge split between the “orthodox” and the “catholic” or anything like that at all. These “dissident” groups literally have tens to hundreds of followers throughout the whole world. They do not even reach the radar and have no influence on anything other than their own little communities, that’s it. That’s just me talking though

Peace.

 

[Lillith]

Glory be to God:

“When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?” And they said, “Nothing” Then said he unto them, “But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one!”
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:35-36
“. . . Lord, behold, here are two swords.” And he said unto them, “It is enough”.
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:38

Hmmmm. Take that phrase “It is enough” and put an exclamation point at the end…and you get “It is enough!” A completely different meaning from your translation.

“It is enough!” was actually Jesus showing his frustration at his disciples when they take literally what was intended as figurative language about being prepared to face the world’s hostility. The scripture that you left out: 37. For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, namely ‘he was counted among the wicked’ and indeed what is written about me is coming to fulfillment. You see…the sword, the money bag the sack of sandels were prophesied in the OT…and Jesus fulfilled over 100 of these prophesies to the letter. It was important work so that we would all know he was the Savior promised to the Jewish peoples.
Glory to God:

It is my view that the culture and envrionment that Muhammad lived in was drastically different than that of Jesus, and that Muhammad’s military campaigns were inevitable and justifiable. 'Abdu’l-Baha, the son of Baha’u’llah says it better than me and that is why I am going to quote him. (by the way if you find the Bahaies are quoting too much stuff to you and it is over-burdening you, let us know, we don not mean to push points onto you)

It is my view that Muhammed is a false prophet. It does not over burden me at all…because I can skip over it. To Christians, there are no more prophets in the world, and there will be none because we look at the Bible as the story of Man, as it is! Genesis introduces us to God, and illustrates how disobedience to God created a distance between us and He and the outcome was death. Jesus who was God came down from Heaven and brought us redemption and restored our life after the supreme sacrifice…now we wait for his return. There is no prophesy left…Jesus said so himself when he said “it is finished” his last words. The only thing left to prophesize is " when?" And Jesus already told us that no one could ever know that time. So No…I do not believe in other prophets.

 

[DaveBj]

Speaking of Baha’i membership numbers, I wonder if they ever took my name off the roles. I officially signed up in 1973, but I don’t think I ever told anyone to remove me.

DaveBj

 

[arthra]

DaveBj:

Speaking of Baha’i membership numbers, I wonder if they ever took my name off the roles. I officially signed up in 1973, but I don’t think I ever told anyone to remove me.

DaveBj

Dave,

When someone declares a nd becomes a Baha’i they sign an application form and it is sent to our National Office… When they decide to withdraw they are expected to submit a letter stating their wishes. At this point a letter is sent from our National Office acknowledging the withdrawal.

But in the course of thirty years if you were say not responding to anything or moved away in the course of time they would probably remove you anyway.

---

Flameburn,

Thanks for your assistance over at the Mormon board!

If my application registration gets through I’ll clarify it to them.

One of the problems with this issue of using a prophecy from Joseph Smith is that we really don’t acknowledge him as a prophet or his writings as authoritative… so we don’t want to be deceptive and imply things when we in truth really don’t acknowledge his writings…

---

Lilith:

One of the ways I understand Jesus and Muhammad is that they had different missions. Jesus was like an wandering Teacher who was constantly moving and on the go… He had no wife or children and His teachings were also directed I think at personal salvation.

He counselled His people to use a form of passive non-resistance as a way to cope with the powerful occupying force of the Roman Legions. Had the people listened to Jesus there would have been no revolt and Jerusalem would have been spared in my opinion…at least for awhile.

Muhammad on the other hand was responsible for a people an “Umma”. He united the tribes of Arabia and forged a new nation so as a head of state He had responsibilities unlike those of Jesus Christ.

• Art

 

[Lillith]

Glory be to God:

Interpreting the text literally caused the Jews to reject Jesus, is what I am saying. They had a Prophet named Elijah who they believed literally ascended to heaven on a fiery chariot, and was going to literally descend down from heaven at the time of the Messiah. This did not happen so they said that Jesus could not be the Messiah.

But, I beg to differ. Elijah did descend down from heaven.

Mark ch. 9:2-6 Jesus Transfigured. Six days later Jesus took Peter, James, and John off by themselves and led them up a high mountain. He was transfigured before their eyes. 3. and his clothes became dazzlingly white- whiter than any work of any bleacher could make them. 4 Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; The two were in conversation with Jesus. 5. Then Peter spoke to Jesus: Rabbi, how good is it for us to be here! Let us erect three boths on this site one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah! 6. He hardly knew what to say for they were all overcome with awe.
Glory be to God:

Jesus said that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah, and they asked him if he was and he said he was not. So they went back to Jesus and Jesus said that John the Baptist was the **Spiritual return ** of Elijah

It seems to me that Christianity began at its very outset as a spiritual, metaphorical interpretation of Jewish Literalism and that was the reason fo being rejected by the Jews…

Are you sure that was the only reason that the Jews had for rejecting Jesus? Did it not have something to do with corruption and the loss of power? Not all Jews rejected Jesus either, and honestly…it still isn’t too late.

Why is it now ok for Christianity to interpret everything literally and reject Baha’u’llah because he didn’t literally fulfill these things?

That’s just my question for everyone, and it is not meant to be provocative or pressing, its just my question.

Peace,

My question to you is, again…what do we need of another Prophet? Can Baha’u’llah give me the date of Jesus Christ return? Since scripture says he can’t what is left to tell? Actua;;y the more telling question…Did Baha’u’llah claim to be Jesus Christ?

 

[arthra]

Did Baha’u’llah claim to be Jesus Christ?

The short answer is yes.

Baha’is believe Christ has returned. Baha’u’llah announced to the rulers of Europe around 1868-1871 that He was the spiritual return of Christ:

See:

bahai-library.com/?file=bradford_christ_tablet_pope

• Art
  

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

A few Questions…since you seem very agreeable to them.

Judaism, Muslems, and Christianity…I have heard said and find it plausable are branches of the same tree. BUT, while I have not read the Koran, I understand that there is room for the interpretation of Jihad…which is very much not what Christ taught. How or why is that happening?

I am more inclined to interpret Jihad as our friend “Glory be to God” has. While there is provision in the Qur’an for a society to defend itself against an aggressor – call it just war if you wish – and Jihad has been applied to such a concept of “just war,” I believe it is much more important to understand it as the struggle to do the right thing, both internally and as a society. From the point of view of the inner struggle to do the right thing, Jihad is very much akin to Paul’s directive to, “Fight the good fight of faith.”

If one were to look at Christianity, roughly 1500 years after the time of Christ I think you would find internal battles about the use of violence, even torture, to preserve and promote the Christian Faith. Many leaders, both political and religious, around the 1500’s were making what we would consider today to be terrible mistakes regarding interpretation of the Bible and its application to violence, war, heresy and the like.

In that time of Christianity the interpretations, even the very texts of the Bible were controlled by a very few, very powerful and – as it turns out – not always very spiritual people. As the text of the Bible became available to the masses and they were allowed to interpret, or at least question the dogmas of “just war” and corporal punishment for things like heresy, the general understanding of the Faith of Jesus Christ changed and the focus became on love and forgiveness – something that had often been lost in the struggle for ecclesiastical leadership and political power.

My point in all this rambling – well, if one looks both at the history and the current situation in Islam one would see that it falls into this very same pattern. Currently the most lay Muslims don’t have access to their Holy Writings (because they don’t understand Arabic and don’t have a translation) or believe (as many Christians did in the 1500’s) they believe that they don’t have the knowledge and/or right to interpret them. This belief and ignorance is often encouraged and perpetuated by those with clerical power in Islam, just as it was in Christianity in the 1500’s.

So, let the religion that is without sin cast the first stone.

kernk

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

Hindu and Buddists…believe in reincarnation…how do you believe? Reincarnation or no? They also do not believe in Hell…what say you?

With regard to reincarnation, Bahá’ís do not believe in it – that is, we do not believe that the soul of a human being returns to earth either once or repeatedly to live multiple lives.

That being said, while many Hindu’s and Buddhists may believe in reincarnation, it is not the only interpretation of the teachings of Hinduism or Buddhism. It may currently be the most popular interpretation, but there are plenty of Hindus and Buddhists who do not interpret their Faiths in such a manner as to believe in reincarnation and there is plenty in their scriptures to suggest a “spiritual” understanding of “many lives” (i.e. that these are lives of the soul, not physical lives or that these are different aspects or stages in the one life that we all get – repeating past mistakes, as it were). Interestingly, contemporary Christian theology appears to teach reincarnation – but that it happens only once (i.e. the physical resurrection) which isn’t too far from possible interpretations for many passages in Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.

Moving on. With regard to Hell, both Hinduism and Buddhism do indeed believe in hell. Here are some quotes:

“…people take the evil way in deeds, the evil way in words, the evil way in thoughts; and by taking the evil way in deeds, words, and thoughts, at the dissolution of the body, after death, they fall into a downward state of existence, a state of suffering, into perdition, and the abyss of hell.”

((The Eightfold Path), Buddha, the Word (The Eightfold Path))

“…evil-doers go to hell, the good go to heaven…”

(Buddhist, Dhammapada - Sayings of the Buddha 1 (tr. J. Richards))

“He who speaks untruth goes to hell, as does he who, having done something, says, “I didn’t do it.” Men of ignoble behaviour, they both end up the same in the next world.

“Many of those dressed in the yellow robe (priests/monks) are evil and unrestrained, and the evil end up in hell because of their evil deeds…

“The thoughtless man who consorts with another man’s wife encounters four things - accumulation of demerit, disturbed sleep, thirdly disgrace, and hell fourth….

“Guard yourself like a frontier town, guarded inside and out. Don’t let a moment slip you by. Those who have missed their opportunity grieve for it when they end up in hell.”

(Buddhist, Dhammapada - Sayings of the Buddha 1 (tr. J. Richards))

“The Doors of Hell are threefold, whereby men to ruin pass - The door of Lust, the door of Wrath, the door of Avarice. Let a man shun those three!”

(Hindu, Bhagavad Gita (Edwin Arnold tr))

“Let him reflect on the transmigrations of men, caused by their sinful deeds, on their falling into hell, and on the torments in the world of Yama [the ruler of the underworld – Satin].

(Hindu, Laws of Manu)

There are morewhere those came from. As you can see, belief in Hell is not excluded from Buddhism or Hinduism.

kernk

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

My question to you is, again…what do we need of another Prophet? Can Baha’u’llah give me the date of Jesus Christ return? Since scripture says he can’t what is left to tell? Actua;;y the more telling question…Did Baha’u’llah claim to be Jesus Christ?

My answer to that question is here: users.tc3net.com/bfaith/

In the “More In-depth” link, followed by the “Who are the Baha’is” link.

kernk

 

[Mickey]

BruceDLimber:

So with your kind permission we’ll stick to the Bible and its proofs of Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith.

And I will stick to the Bible without it’s proofs of Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i faith because the Bible does not prove those things–no matter how you attempt to twist Scripture.