Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

[johnvee84]

You first need to establish what God is, most do not know and the answers vary greatly.

Before I began my journey into the dark night I had no answers to questions like this, nor did I care.

God exists in people, he is your inner judge, he is love, faith, and hope. 2 years ago if asked what I think God is I would have said he doesn’t exist, or he is someone in heaven (what I used to believe was a magical place one went to after death) who made everything… in short I would have tried to personify him in someway which is absurd, it would be like trying to personify radio waves, or human emotions.

Jesus IS the son of God.

What does this mean?

Jesus was born to the virgin Mary, and there was no male figure involved.

One would automatically assume (or I would have before undergoing the awakening process) that God took the form of a man and impregnated her, or God magically allowed her to conceive without Jesus having a biological father.

The second is not far from the truth. Jesus and Mary were what is known (or believed by some, including myself) as twin flames or twin soulmates (if you are unaware of these terms google it, but you need to meet yours to understand, but it is rare to meet your twin flame). How Mary came to be conceived is a mystery to me. Jesus undoubtedly had a closer relationship with his mother than most do as her and jesus were twin flames, God being love made Jesus the son of God, as there is no greater love than that shared by twin flames.

In truth we are all sons of God, as we are the product of love, but fortunately Jesus died for our sins so we don’t have to, as was his twin flame mission.

I will reveal other things if asked too, my favorites are explaining the garden of eden with Adam and Eve, and the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

We indeed have a very personal relationship with the Person of Baha’u’llah

God bless you

.

But Baha’u’llah is not Christ.

God bless you as well

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Jesus is God, and to all senses of the word, from my petty and insignificant perspective that is true. Epistemologically true.

What makes you so certain that these passages are ontologically correct rather than epistemologically correct?



.

I don’t understand the distinction that you are trying to make in the passages with your questions about ontologically correct vs. epistemologically correct. If you know that Jesus is God then you are ontologically saying “Yes, Christ exists, and yes, we can categorize him with the Divine Being of God.” Therefore the statement has become ontologically true and properly categorized (which is what ontologists do).

Looking at it from an epistemological standpoint, one would ask “how do we know what we know.” And, in this instance we know what we know because the knowledge has been recorded, handed down, scrutinized by the Church for 2000+ years and found to be correct. One could also add in ‘faith in the scriptures’ under this heading.

Neither ontology nor epistemology changes the interpretation of the scriptures in any meaningful way. Ontology only focuses on what is known to be real, and epistemology deals with ‘how we know the things we know’. So what were you trying to say?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus is God, and to all senses of the word, from my petty and insignificant perspective that is true. Epistemologically true.

I was prompted to write by your assertion in another thread that Jesus never claimed to be God. Here you say that “Jesus is God” with a qualifier. I have no patience for this type of philosophical double-speak.

Look at the verses presented in the OP. Examine them carefully in context.

Did Jesus claim to be God?

Yes or no.

 

[Servant19]

I was prompted to write by your assertion in another thread that Jesus never claimed to be God. Here you say that “Jesus is God” with a qualifier. I have no patience for this type of philosophical double-speak.

Look at the verses presented in the OP. Examine them carefully in context.

Did Jesus claim to be God?

Yes or no.

No, dear friend He did not

Baha’u’llah has clarified very clearly the station of the Word, the Primal Will, the First Mind.

Before Abraham was , Jesus “IS”…Baha’is will be the first to acknowledge that truth, and it is Truth indeed.

He is the Lord of lords. Baha’is will truly put hand on heart and accept that too.

None of these things tell us that Jesus IS God

Even in Catholicism there is the distinction between Deus a se and Deus pro nobis

.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No, dear friend He did not

Baha’u’llah has clarified very clearly the station of the Word, the Primal Will, the First Mind.

Before Abraham was , Jesus “IS”…Baha’is will be the first to acknowledge that truth, and it is Truth indeed.

He is the Lord of lords. Baha’is will truly put hand on heart and accept that too.

None of these things tell us that Jesus IS God

Even in Catholicism there is the distinction between Deus a se and Deus pro nobis

.

If Jesus did not claim to be God, why did He not correct Thomas who fell at his feet and worshipped Him?

Remember, when men did the same to angels or later to Paul and Barnabas, they were quickly corrected. Why no correction of Thomas?

 

[Servant19]

If Jesus did not claim to be God, why did He not correct Thomas who fell at his feet and worshipped Him?

Remember, when men did the same to angels or later to Paul and Barnabas, they were quickly corrected. Why no correction of Thomas?

Because Jesus and God are epistemologically one, Randy

One cannot compare Jesus to an angel, or to Paul or to Barnabas.

I worship Jesus in His Spirit and glory. To me there is no difference between Jesus and God.

.

 

[Servant19]

But Baha’u’llah is not Christ.

God bless you as well

And John the Baptist was not Elijah…

They were one in spirit and power, as are Baha’u’llah and Jesus

.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

No, dear friend He did not

Baha’u’llah has clarified very clearly the station of the Word, the Primal Will, the First Mind. .

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and*** the Word was God***. (John 1:1, bold/underline by me)

Before Abraham was , Jesus “IS”…Baha’is will be the first to acknowledge that truth, and it is Truth indeed.

He is the Lord of lords. Baha’is will truly put hand on heart and accept that too.

None of these things tell us that Jesus IS God .

“And** the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us**, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14, bold/underline by me.

“I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24, bold/underline by me)

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.” (Isaiah 44:16 bold/underline by me)

Plenty more biblical evidence of Jesus’s divinity here: carm.org/bible-verses-show-jesus-divine

Also take into account that Jesus had the ability to forgive sin (an ability only God has), allowed himself to be worshipped as God. He made it clear that he was not Elijah, John the Baptist, or ‘some other prophet from long ago’.

Jesus’s divinity is deeply ingrained in the scriptures my friend.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I worship Jesus in His Spirit and glory. To me there is no difference between Jesus and God.

If there is no difference between Jesus and God, then I ask again: Did Jesus claim to be God?

We will take this one step at a time.

John was a disciple of Jesus, an Apostle, and eye-witness to all of Jesus’ public ministry. Writing around the year AD 95 (sixty years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus), John wrote:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).

and

“The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” (Jn 1:14)

From this, we can see John’s logic in this way:

1. Jesus is the Word. (Jn 1:14)
2. The Word was God. (Jn 1:1)
3. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Now, a question: Do you agree that John believed Jesus was God?

 

[Servant19]

I don’t understand the distinction that you are trying to make in the passages with your questions about ontologically correct vs. epistemologically correct. If you know that Jesus is God then you are ontologically saying “Yes, Christ exists, and yes, we can categorize him with the Divine Being of God.” Therefore the statement has become ontologically true and properly categorized (which is what ontologists do).

Looking at it from an epistemological standpoint, one would ask “how do we know what we know.” And, in this instance we know what we know because the knowledge has been recorded, handed down, scrutinized by the Church for 2000+ years and found to be correct. One could also add in ‘faith in the scriptures’ under this heading.

Neither ontology nor epistemology changes the interpretation of the scriptures in any meaningful way. Ontology only focuses on what is known to be real, and epistemology deals with ‘how we know the things we know’. So what were you trying to say?

Epistemology and ontology are encapsulated in the Catholic concepts of Deus a se and Deus pro nobis

We are limited, finite beings dear friend. There is no way we can fathom the ontology of God. We are given Jesus as an epistemological Manifestation of God.

.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Because Jesus and God are epistemologically one, Randy

One cannot compare Jesus to an angel, or to Paul or to Barnabas.

I worship Jesus in His Spirit and glory. To me there is no difference between Jesus and God.

.

Color me confused. A few posts above you stated that nothing said that Jesus IS God, and yet now you say there is no difference between Jesus and God and that the two are one.

Which is it?

 

[Servant19]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and*** the Word was God***. (John 1:1, bold/underline by me)

“And** the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us**, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14, bold/underline by me.

“I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24, bold/underline by me)

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.” (Isaiah 44:16 bold/underline by me)

Plenty more biblical evidence of Jesus’s divinity here: carm.org/bible-verses-show-jesus-divine

Also take into account that Jesus had the ability to forgive sin (an ability only God has), allowed himself to be worshipped as God. He made it clear that he was not Elijah, John the Baptist, or ‘some other prophet from long ago’.

Jesus’s divinity is deeply ingrained in the scriptures my friend.

Can you give me a reasonable explanation how something can “be” something and “be with” something at the same time?

The only concept I can think of that can fit this criteria is the Sun and its light rays. Would that be correct in your estimation?

.

 

[Servant19]

Color me confused. A few posts above you stated that nothing said that Jesus IS God, and yet now you say there is no difference between Jesus and God and that the two are one.

Which is it?

I’m talking from a human perspective dear friend

From God’s perspective Jesus is His Son, and there is a distinction. Both are eternal, yet one is created, the other is uncreated.

.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Epistemology and ontology are encapsulated in the Catholic concepts of Deus a se and Deus pro nobis

We are limited, finite beings dear friend. There is no way we can fathom the ontology of God. We are given Jesus as an epistemological Manifestation of God.

.

Did you not just say that God and Jesus are one? Now you are saying that we cannot know God, therefore we were given Christ as a way of knowing God, and yet above you said that God and Jesus are the same. I’m having a difficult time following that sort of logic.

If God and Jesus are one, and we cannot know God, it follows that we could not know Jesus either.

 

[Servant19]

If there is no difference between Jesus and God, then I ask again: Did Jesus claim to be God?

We will take this one step at a time.

John was a disciple of Jesus, an Apostle, and eye-witness to all of Jesus’ public ministry. Writing around the year AD 95 (sixty years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus), John wrote:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).

and

“The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” (Jn 1:14)

From this, we can see John’s logic in this way:

1. Jesus is the Word. (Jn 1:14)
2. The Word was God. (Jn 1:1)
3. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Now, a question: Do you agree that John believed Jesus was God?

Yes John believed it.

But it’s only through the Revelation of Baha’u’llah that I knew He was wrong, in an ontological sense.

.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes John believed it.

Great.

And when Thomas, “Doubting Thomas” as he is commonly known, was finally convinced that Jesus had risen, he fell down and exclaimed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)

Will you concede that Thomas also believed that Jesus was God?

 

[Servant19]

Did you not just say that God and Jesus are one?

Yes, but only from my (a human beings) perspective

Now you are saying that we cannot know God, therefore we were given Christ as a way of knowing God, and yet above you said that God and Jesus are the same. I’m having a difficult time following that sort of logic.

If God and Jesus are one, and we cannot know God, it follows that we could not know Jesus either.

Yes, but God sent us Jesus so that we may be enabled to know of Him

When you go to the hospital, you see a doctor there and he tells you all you need to know about your ailment. To you he is the doctor, the healer of all your ills.

Did you know that he is actually a one of a pair of doctors (one of whom is a specialist), and the specialist is giving him all the knowledge he can know about you and your illness through an earpiece?

You cannot see the earpiece and have not the faintest idea that there even is an earpiece. To you, the doctor you are seeing is THE DOCTOR. THE ONE.

That is epistemology.

But ontologically, there is a distinction.

.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

And John the Baptist was not Elijah…

They were one in spirit and power, as are Baha’u’llah and Jesus

.

I’m truly trying to understand this, so please stick with us and explain, because what I’ve gathered so far doesn’t make sense. I did a little reading about Baha’u’llah, and I’m trying to really get a grip on the core belief to understand it better.

Correct me if I am wrong, please.

From what I understand the core belief of Baha’u’llah is that Baha’u’llah is in fact the second coming of Christ, as well as the buddah, prophet of Islam, and every other ‘chosen one’ that every religion of the world has prophesied about.

This is possible because- according to Baha’u’llah, all religions on earth (though they varied greatly from one geographical location and age) they really all come from the single source, which is God.

Correct so far?

So then we get into the subject of Christ, and this is where it really starts to get murky, because I’ve heard you say that Christ is not God, then say Christ and God are the same. Then you say you know Christ because you know Baha’u’llah, but Baha’u’llah is not Christ. Then we get back to Christ is Lord, and yet somehow he is also just a manifestation of God, but not God himself, and apparently he can be held equal to Buddah or Muhhamed or Moses.

If Christ is Lord, or the same as God (as you put it) then how can he be equal to someone like Moses, who was not Lord nor God?

I guess I’m getting mixed messages here, which I believe is why the OP was asking the simple question: According to Baha’u’llah, is Jesus Christ God?

 

[Servant19]

Great.

And when Thomas, “Doubting Thomas” as he is commonly known, was finally convinced that Jesus had risen, he fell down and exclaimed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)

Will you concede that Thomas also believed that Jesus was God?

Yes He believed it too…

.