Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

[PeaceBeWithU]

How is it troublesome when Christianity is the embodiment of this truth dear Randy?.

It is troublesome when a person considers Truth to be relative. Realitydoes not change from one day to the next. God does not change from one day to the next, nor does the message that Christ taught. Truth is not relative. Truth is reality.

Reality is the embodiment of this truth.

Exactly, and reality does not change. The earth was never flat. The reality is that the world was always the shape it is now. The fact that people didn’t know it back then does not change the fact that it was. Therefore Truth is not relative. Truth remains Truth, despite the opinions of people.

From a human perspective, everything is relative. At one time we knew the earth was flat (that was our reality), now we have advanced that truth, and new frontiers of the earths existence are being sought…

Again, Truth is not relative to human understanding. The world never was flat. The reality of the shape of the earth never changed. Human ignorance of the truth didn’t make the truth any less of a reality. We didn’t create an ‘advanced truth’ we simply gained a greater understanding of a truth that was there the entire time. The earth did not change. The truth did not change.

At one time, the thought of a triune God was but manifest blasphemy, at another, God was triune.

As far as the triune God, it is the same as the above. Realizing an error and then correcting it does not mean that the truth changed, it simply means you realized a truth that was there the entire time.

Why would God guide to contradictory Truths? Is it really a contradiction from God’s perspective, or is it a “SEEMING” contradiction from a human, finite, perspective?.

God wouldn’t give us contradictory truths. That’s what I was saying. You cannot say in the same breath that Christ is One with God, and then at the same time say that Christ is something lesser than God, equal to Moses, Buddah etc. No matter what ‘perspective’ you look through there is a contradiction there because TRUTH does not hinge on perspective. It is a reality, whether a million people believe it or not. The world was round even when we thought it flat. Reality didn’t change. Christ is God, despite the opinions of a multitude of people. The reality doesn’t change. People’s ACCEPTANCE of reality is the only thing that changes.

No dear friend, it is not reasonable at all. Truth from a human perspective denies our fallibility as human beings.

Beating head against a wall Truth does not have a perspective. It simply is. Our fallibility as human beings doesn’t affect the truth one single iota. Reality doesn’t hinge on our understanding, and thank God for that!

…the very reason why Moses did not claim Divinity was because the capacity to understand that Truth was not there. .

I’m trying to wrap my head around this statement. What you are saying is that, yes, indeed Moses had the same divinity as Jesus, which means Moses was ‘one with God’ but he chose to NOT reveal that fact because the people of his time wouldn’t understand that?

I gotta say ‘hogwash’. For starters, although it isn’t true, it isn’t a hard concept to grasp. The Israelites of that time were subjects of the Egyptians, who worshipped their Pharoh as a god/king. The idea of a god in mortal form wouldn’t have been a foreign concept, and even if it was, it still isn’t tough to understand. There would be no conceivable reason whatsoever to keep that information a secret. Further, Moses was a human being with human parents- unlike Jesus, who was conceived of the Holy Spirit and conceived by the Virgin Mary. Moses was very mortal. He as also a sinner (murdered a fellow) which Jesus was not. To top it all off, he was scared of the burning bush and didn’t want to carry the message which God put before him. He even had to ask ‘what should I tell them your name is?’ because he didn’t know which god he was talking to!

So, unless you re-write the scriptures to fit this idea I think there is plenty of evidence to say that Moses was not divine, but was a very human prophet of God.

If you notice, Judaism is very much concerned with human development, the “here and now”, Law, not so much on life after death, eternal things, etc etc

We must be thinking of two completely different religions. Judaism is very much concerned with God, mortal sin, and the state of a person’s soul on earth. Heaven, Hell, human righteousness, prophesy, sin, and acting in accord with God’s will are very present.

Yes, God deemed the world to be ready to worship a Human Temple as a “God”
The concept of the Manifestation of God was first introduced to Israel through Jesus…

This makes no sense. God says again and again “I am your only God. Have no other Gods but me”. The people of Israel got in a lot of hot water by falling away from their faith to chase after other religions, worshipping idols, living sinful lives. Christ didn’t come so that we could worship his human body. He came to save us from our sins and unite us with God once again.

Again, the concept of a god in human form wasn’t new. It was rather old by the 1st century.

The argument that ‘people wouldn’t have understood, so all this had to be kept secret’ simply doesn’t hold water.

Moses was not to mention His station. That was not in His job description

Moses was a prophet. That was his job description. You’d have to completely disregard huge portions of the bible and then create a complete fiction in it’s place to say otherwise.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

You are again looking at the Manifestation of God from a human perspective. You see differences. From a human perspective we are inclined towards seeing differences. You see their teachings are different, you see one says “worship me”, the other says “worship no one but God”, and another says “don’t worship at all” .

I see differences because there are differences. That is a simple truth, and it is the same regardless of perspective. Buddah is different than Jesus. Moses is different than Buddah. Change perspective any way you want, but that’s still a true statement.

These are all indeed contradictions. (from a human, fallible perspective).

There are contradictions because they taught different things and contradicted one another. What does human fallibility have to do with it? Are you saying that somehow we misunderstood the message of Buddah or Christ? That they were really totally saying the exact same thing this entire time and somehow we missed it? Was Buddah engaging in bringing people closer to God through repentance? Was he preaching salvation instead of enlightenment this entire time, and somehow we missed it?

I could full 20 pages explaining all of these things to you, case by case, reason by reason, and there are very valid reasons for these seeming contradictions, but in summary it is all based on one of two things:

1. Either human beings were not ready for more truth, (as I have explained to Randy above), OR
2. Human beings have gradually over time, misinterpreted the Truth (and this is my belief for a lot of the very old global religions)

Was there a specific thing that you wish to have explained dear friend?

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Either they weren’t ready for it, or they messed it up…

So, Christ isn’t God… they messed that up…
Moses was divine… but they weren’t ready for that…
Buddah knew all about Christ and God… but preached something completely different because they weren’t ready for that and they messed it up…
There isn’t really a hell… they messed that up…
There really isn’t a devil… but they weren’t ready to hear that…

uh huh. Sorry, but to me this sounds like nothing more than a ‘license’ to change scripture, invent a fiction, put it all into a blender, and come out with something warm and fuzzy that people just want to hear.

You have to have a bedrock somewhere, otherwise it all gets washed away.

 

[arthra]

Gary posted above:

*"Baha’i appears as distant from God, as to be utterly unknowable is to be unable to assimilate to obtain within a personal relationship with the savior.

God can be known and is known, we can know God through nature and His creatures and further through revelation. Your in denial of both as I see.

According to the Bahá’í writings, the manifestation of God is not an incarnation of God, as the transcendent Godhead can never incarnate itself in a mere mortal frame. Yet there is no articulated response in this regard. Which is the point in fair judgement."*

Gary thanks for your post!

I think a few points need to be made here regarding the Baha’i views you are interested in…

It’s true … Baha’is believe that God is unknowable… by this we mean the essence of God is unknowable. The attributes of God can be seen in the creation as you have noted, but the essence of God is not visible to us. From the Baha’i writings:

** Immeasurably exalted is His Essence above the descriptions of His creatures. He, alone, occupieth the Seat of transcendent majesty, of supreme and inaccessible glory. The birds of men’s hearts, however high they soar, can never hope to attain the heights of His unknowable Essence. It is He Who hath called into being the whole of creation, Who hath caused every created thing to spring forth at His behest.**

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, 2d rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1976), p. 193.

When God sends His Messengers and Manifestations He also reveals to us what is most needed for the time. God does not leave us alone without Divine Guidance and it is through His Messengers or Manifestations that we can know what we can of Him.
:

And when the entire creation was stirred up, and the whole earth was convulsed, and the sweet savors of Thy name, the All-Praised, had almost ceased to breathe over Thy realms, and the winds of Thy mercy had well-nigh been stilled throughout Thy dominions, Thou didst, through the power of Thy might, raise me up among Thy servants, and bid me to show forth Thy sovereignty amidst Thy people.

From Prayers and Meditations of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 104.

as you know we Baha’is do not accept the idea that God incarnates Himself in a physical form …

• Art

 

[Tomdstone]

It is troublesome when a person considers Truth to be relative. Realitydoes not change from one day to the next. God does not change from one day to the next, nor does the message that Christ taught. Truth is not relative…

It looks to me like Catholics believe that what God commands is relative. For example, in the OT, God commanded not to eat certain foods, whereas in the NT, this command has changed. God commanded circumcision in the OT, but today Catholics are not obligated to obey this. Or, even in the NT, women are to wear headcovering in Church, whereas, Catholics today, after Vatican II, do not believe that this must be observed.

 

[Tomdstone]

The world has not changed or per say people have not changed since Christ was here.

Not true. There have been changes since Christ was born. At the time of his birth, the command of God to have males circumcised was observed. Now it is no longer mandatory.

 

[Techno2000]

as you know we Baha’is do not accept the idea that God incarnates Himself in a physical form …

• Art

But God can “manifest” Himself in a physical form… the example being Baha’u’llah right ?

 

[Randy_Carson]

It looks to me like Catholics believe that what God commands is relative. For example, in the OT, God commanded not to eat certain foods, whereas in the NT, this command has changed. God commanded circumcision in the OT, but today Catholics are not obligated to obey this. Or, even in the NT, women are to wear headcovering in Church, whereas, Catholics today, after Vatican II, do not believe that this must be observed.

Tom-

The answer to your question is here:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-we-are-not-bound-by-everything-in-the-old-law

 

[GaryTaylor]

It’s true … Baha’is believe that God is unknowable… by this we mean the essence of God is unknowable.

We are at odds in how one knows God as linked.

The attributes of God can be seen in the creation as you have noted, but the essence of God is not visible to us. From the Baha’i writings:.

It is written: “We shall see Him as He is” (1 John 2:2). and linked.

can never hope to attain the heights of His unknowable Essence.

Right, this is odds and vague without added elaboration on unknowable .

When God sends His Messengers and Manifestations He also reveals to us what is most needed for the time. God does not leave us alone without Divine Guidance and it is through His Messengers or Manifestations that we can know what we can of Him.

There is no other name which salvation comes save Jesus Christ. The prophets of scripture contradict Bahá’í who does not teach that the physical desires of human beings are “evil” or “bad.” Everything in God’s creation is regarded as essentially and fundamentally good. The fall of man forward is contrary to Christian faith. To prevent Adan and Eve from eating the fruit of the tree of life, thus becoming immortal, God expelled them from the Garden of Eden. The Council of Orange elaborates.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ewtn.com%2Flibrary%2FCOUNCILS%2FORANGE.HTM&ei=2xGGVKD9JYGdgwTyy4GoBw&usg=AFQjCNHTZMMbW4asl5R4Aec9MjytewylFA

Abdu’l-Bahá describes it thus:

In creation there is no evil, all is good. Certain qualities and natures innate in some men and apparently blameworthy are not so in reality. For example, from the beginning of his life you can see in a nursing child the signs of greed, of anger, and of temper. Then, it may be said, good and evil are innate in the reality of man, and this is contrary to the pure goodness of nature and creation. The answer to this is that greed, which is to ask for something more, is a praiseworthy quality provided that it is used suitably. So, if a man is greedy to acquire science and knowledge, or to become compassionate, generous, and just, it is most praiseworthy. If he exercises his anger and wrath against the bloodthirsty tyrants who are like ferocious beasts, it is very praiseworthy; but if he does not use these qualities in a right way, they are blameworthy… It is the same with all the natural qualities of man, which constitute the capital of life; if they be used and displayed in an unlawful way, they become blameworthy. Therefore, it is clear that creation is purely good.4

It is written Jeremiah 31-34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

Luke 1:77
to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Romans 11:27
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD…

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbiblehub.com%2Fjeremiah%2F31-34.htm&ei=bAqGVIKFG4nwggS0gYOgCw&usg=AFQjCNFf3-azwoh4qLyQYTRx9qertwJgWw

as you know we Baha’is do not accept the idea that God incarnates Himself in a physical form …

Yet no argument has come forward as to why this is beyond Gods capacity of will. Further it was established at the first ecumenical council against the Arians the Son was of the same essence (homoousios) as the Father and is from that essence of the Father.

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.

Thus this…

Baha’is believe that Three Messengers of God came after Jesus:

1. Muhammad (570-643 A.D.)
2. The Bab (1819-1850 A.D.)
3. Baha’u’llah (1817-1892 A.D.)

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vatican.va%2Farchive%2Fccc_css%2Farchive%2Fcatechism%2Fp1s1c2a1.htm&ei=4g-GVP3oPIirgwS4l4OYBg&usg=AFQjCNEJt2o_SUU8h-v2no6jlji_M1Xo0w

Thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

But God can “manifest” Himself in a physical form… the example being Baha’u’llah right ?

These ideas are modern-day manifestations of ancient heresies refuted by the Ecumenical Councils long ago.

 

[Tomdstone]

Tom-

The answer to your question is here:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-we-are-not-bound-by-everything-in-the-old-law

The article more or less supports my point that what God has commanded is relative to the time in which you live.

 

[Techno2000]

These ideas are modern-day manifestations of ancient heresies refuted by the Ecumenical Councils long ago.

Manifestation is a clever word because its so vague.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Manifestation is a clever word because its so vague.

I was referring to manifestations or resurgences of ancient heresies and not Manifestations as the Baha’i use the term, but yes, it is curious that Manifestation must be distinguished from Incarnation so very carefully.

Something occurred to me that might be worth looking at:

Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910) - Christian Science
Joseph Smith (1805-1844) - Mormonism
Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916) - Jehovah’s Witnesses
Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí (1817-1892) - Baha’i

Is this just a coincendence?

 

[Techno2000]

I was referring to manifestations or resurgences of ancient heresies and not Manifestations as the Baha’i use the term, but yes, it is curious that Manifestation must be distinguished from Incarnation so very carefully.

Something occurred to me that might be worth looking at:

Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910) - Christian Science
Joseph Smith (1805-1844) - Mormonism
Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916) - Jehovah’s Witnesses
Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí (1817-1892) - Baha’i

Is this just a coincendence?

I know what you mean Randy…So because Baha’u’llah is the manifestation of God according to the Baha’i and this is easily believed by them, if Jesus would have just use the word “manifestation” of God would they believe he was God, being that this word is so vague .

 

[GaryTaylor]

When the sinner findeth himself wholly detached and freed from all save God, he should beg forgiveness and pardon from Him. Confession of sins and transgressions before human beings is not permissible, as it hath never been nor will ever be conducive to divine forgiveness. Moreover such confession before people results in one’s humiliation and abasement, and God—exalted be His glory—wisheth not the humiliation of His servants. Verily He is the Compassionate, the Merciful. (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, page 24)

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. (James 5:16)

[Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:21-23)

Do you guys believe in the Ten Commandments, how so in relation to good and evil and mans fall? These Manifestations, the title is allegorical?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m trying to lead a discussion here! :crying:

 

[Servant19]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Servant, I think you need to ponder this. In the case of the flat earth, that was not reality, but error. The TRUTH is that the earth is not flat. No one is speaking of knowing all truth. The truth exists whether we believe it or even know it. As I have said to you before, no matter how sincerely one might believe thy can fly, when they jump off of the 30 story building they will still have to deal with the objective TRUTH of gravity and they will go splat every time.

Yes I agree with you here Steve.

The example was probably not the best one but the principle is the same.

Truth is gradually learned by human beings. This is reality.

God does it no other way.
We see it as a great expression of wisdom to teach our children in a gradual manner the learnings of this world.

How could the All-Wise one educate us any differently?

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[Servant19]

Judgement, who has the final word of interpretation. The judgement has been made to be “fair” in this world its the Catholic Church. And from reading here it appears prudent in Gods wisdom. You don’t want to afford the Church the same fairness Baha’i demands. You have an obvious double standard here, Baha’i isn’t the authority of Christian scripture, which makes his opinion subject to the rule of scripture as a false prophet.

The question arose of what God cannot do according to Baha’i? I missed your response. Are we having a conversation or not?

Nonsense, the injection of infinite, essence, is not consistent with “fathom God” God’s existence is self-evident. Therefore, any effort to demonstrate God’s existence or essence is, at best, unnecessary. God can be known and is known, this statement is self-evident if its predicate is contained in the essence of the subject. In other words “You admit God exists”, your incorrect thinking resides in “fathom God”. Which obviously is a dilemma for “you” of which your opinion is then transferred as fact and by Baha’i? .Can you add this writing also along with what God cannot do. Thank You in advance.

The concept of Deus a se is an important Catholic teaching for you to contemplate dear Gary.

In the Catholic treasury website it clearly states:

“God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (De Fide)”

This is what Bahais mean when we say that God is unknowable.

Hope that clears things up for you

It is for this reason that we say that Gods essence (which is incomprehensible to even those in heaven) cannot incarnate into human form. For, in human form, God becomes “comprehensible” to even those not in heaven.

Does that seem unreasonable to you?

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[Servant19]

Actually it appears as your cross and certainly misunderstanding imho. Which is addressed right above. Your doctrine of the manifestation of God, needs to be broken down completely as so critical analysis can be taken. Bahá’í teaches a God that transcends the world so completely as to remain utterly unknowable. So then how do you know the unknowable of Gods manifestation?

Baha’i appears as distant from God, as to be utterly unknowable is to be unable to assimilate to obtain within a personal relationship with the savior.

God can be known and is known, we can know God through nature and His creatures and further through revelation. Your in denial of both as I see.

According to the Bahá’í writings, the manifestation of God is not an incarnation of God, as the transcendent Godhead can never incarnate itself in a mere mortal frame. Yet there is no articulated response in this regard. Which is the point in fair judgement.

The answer to your question here is in my post above.

Catholicism teaches that Gods Essence is incomprehensible. So does Bahaullah.

So how may we possibly know God?

The answer is through His active attributes. We see His attributes throughout creation and the quality of expression of these attributes is found in degrees. For all things are made in the image of God. The word “image” here is a reference to Gods active attributes.

According to the Bahai Writings, these attributes are expressed in minerals in the smallest degree (the diamond being the pinnacle of Gods expression in the mineral realm) then we have the vegetable, then the animal, then the human being in this physical world and then the human being in the Kingdom.

The Manifestation of God is the pinnacle of all creation, and although they are physically different on this earthly plane, they are all united in the Kingdom, and they all share in the Word, which is the Primal Emanation from the Essence of God.

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[Servant19]

:tsktsk:

I answered your question but that was not a green light to derail this thread. Fortunately, once we have concluded that Jesus DID claim to be God and that His claim was legitimate, then you will have your answer. However, if we try to skip any steps in the chain of logic, then the foundation will not be solid.

I think arthra gave you a very good response.

We have in no way concluded that Jesus DID claim to be God. He allowed people to draw conclusions which were in no way harmful to them.

Even today, I pray to Bahaullah. I know He is not God, but He alone is the focus of all my attention in prayer and in this tgere is no falsehood.

I’m humble enough to acknowledge my limitations

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[Servant19]

As I understand what you are saying, Jesus knew that some people misunderstood His teaching, but He was okay with that because he was acting under some sort of “Prime Directive” that prevented Him from interfering with our development. Is that right?

Well, as you may be aware, Jesus used parables when teaching the crowds. The Gospels are chock full of them, and there are many occasions when the people did not understand Him. And you claim that it was better for “Jesus NOT to correct them, to bring us closer to God.”

What you have missed, apparently, is the fact that Jesus DID explain everything in private to His disciples. The Bible makes this clear:

Mark 4:33-34
33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them [the crowds], as they were able to hear it; 34 he did not speak to them [the crowds] without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.

Matthew 13:10-11
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them [the crowds] in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them [the crowds] it has not been given.

From these two passages, we see that Jesus actually DID enable his closest disciples to understand the truths he was teaching. But does this mean that those truth were meant for a select, inner circle of believers only? NO!

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

And so, Servant19, we can see that your position is false based upon Jesus’ own words. Jesus taught the truth, He explained Himself carefully to a few trusted disciples, and He commissioned those disciples to explain those revealed truths to the entire world.

It WAS incumbent upon Jesus to teach the truth to the people so that none would be lost.

Well let us study some of the Letters of His Chief Steward, His Rock Peter.

Was there anywhere that Peter declares the most central teaching of Christianity, that Jesus is God?

Peter categorically declares in 1Peter 3:6

“…Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her Lord.”

Now I know this is in the context of the wife submitting themselves to their husbands but the word “master” or “leader” would have sufficed to get the point across, but even Abraham was declared a Lord.

Finally, if the Apostles knew that Jesus is God, there would be no need to use the word “GOD” in any of their Letters. They would always simply say Jesus Christ, but they don’t. They always say “God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ”, or “God THROUGH or Saviour Jesus Christ”

If they knew Jesus was God, there would be no need to say AND or THROUGH. I can give references if you need but there are so many instances of this, it will be easy for you to find…



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