Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

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arthra said:
We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred!
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Christians would agree that anyone who believes that the original manuscripts of the New Testament books have ascended into heaven is foolish.

This not what Christians believe nor has this ever been taught by the Catholic Church.

Even mentioning it seems pointless unless Baha’u’llah wanted to use the example of the foolishness of a few to discredit all Christians.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Christians would agree with you that anyone who believes that the original manuscripts of the New Testament books have ascended into heaven is foolish.

This not what Christians believe.

The fact that Baha’u’llah believed this silly idea reveals just how ignorant he was of true Christianity.
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Thanks for your post!

You’ll note that the reference is not to Christian belief but to the belief of many Muslims that the true Gospel was no longer available.
  • Art;)
 
arthra said:
Thanks for your post!

You’ll note that the reference is not to Christian belief but to the belief of many Muslims that the true Gospel was no longer available.
  • Art;)
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Thanks for the clarification. I modified my post, also.
 
Randy you’re not dealing with the the mind of Baha’u’llah here, you’re dealing with something much worst.

Posted by Servant19
Baha’u’llah did not sit around musing about what He could write next.

The majority of His Writings were not actually written by Him at all. Such was the rapidity of His Revelation that He would require up to 8 secretaries all at once to record the Word which was being revealed, often for hours and hours on end.
 
I’ve just updated and improved the argument supporting my OP (originally given in post #185) as follows:
  1. Jesus claimed that He was God in language that was appropriate for His day and audience.
  2. Both His friends and His enemies understood that He claimed to be God.
  3. If His friends and enemies had simply misunderstood Him, He would have had the responsibility to correct them, because
  4. Proper understanding about Jesus is essential to avoid condemnation. (cf. Jn 3:18)
  5. Further, Jesus desires that none should be lost. (cf. 2 Peter 3:9)
  6. In fact, the Bible shows that Jesus did correct His disciples and explain His teachings to them in private.
  7. However, there is not a single verse in which He told his apostles privately that He was not God.
  8. Absent any corrections or statements to the contrary from Jesus, we know that He approved of His disciples belief that He was God.
 
Servant19 said:
What is substance?

God is a Spirit…what is the substance of a Spirit?

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I’m just curious, Servant…you use words like “epistemological” and “ontological” with practiced ease, but then you ask about a fundamental Aristotelian concept like “substance”?

How does that happen? 🤷
 
Servant19 said:
Jesus never talked about an Incarnation. Neither did Baha’u’llah. It is a man-made concept in a sincere attempt to understand who Jesus was 🙂
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The Prophet Isaiah did.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The child will be called “Mighty God”. That’s the incarnation, Servant - prophesied and fulfilled in the Son of the Virgin Mary, Jesus of Nazareth.

I think the appropriate phrase now is:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Servant19 said:
And where does it say that the Holy Spirit is God?
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The Holy Spirit mentioned on equal level with God

Matt. 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,”

2 Cor. 13:14, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”

Eph. 4:4-6, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.”

2 Cor. 3:16-18, “but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.”

The Holy Spirit is referred to as a person by scripture

Who

Rom. 8:11, “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.”

John 6:63, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

1 John 5:6, “And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.”
See also 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Tim. 1:14;

He

John 14:26, "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

Himself

Rom. 8:16, “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,”

Rom. 8:26, “And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;”
 
I apologize for this initial response, it being badly proof read. I was on a tablet at the time. Here is the corrected response.

In response to servant. So, us giving the highest form of worship to Jesus is not idolatry? Last I checked idolatry was worshipping that which is not God. It begs to be asked, that if God intended to allow men to worship mere creations why did he change his mind and condemn it with Muhammad? Is this how progressive revelation works? Or does that indicate that Christians got it wrong and needed Muhammad to correct them? Doesn’t that make more sense in the grand scheme of things than to say Nicaea got it epistemologically right (whatever that means)? Either way you look at it, you are ultimately forced to say we are wrong, yet so committed to political correctness in religion you don’t want to offend us. Religion is the last place we should be politically correct in.
 
Servant19 said:
Baha’u’llah is not God.

But Baha’u’llah has said that it is not an error to worship Him as a God. Nor is it an error to worship Jesus, but He was not God either…

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Baha’u’llah: I’m not a God, but you’re not wrong if you say I am.

Randy Carson: I’m not a woman, but you’re not wrong if you that I am.

You actually believe that logic is sound, Servant?
 
eddie_too said:
randy c,

on a personal note, please let me know if I am stepping on your thread and diverting its focus.

mostly, I am trying to counter the false teachings that the bahai bring to this forum. I do not say false teachings accusatorily. I believe the bahai are here in good faith to spread their belief system. I simply do not want any Christian to fall for the confusion and dissonance those teachings bring with them.

the essence of the bahai teachings is that Jesus is not Lord and that what He taught is not important to mankind. now on this second point I would like to elaborate just a little.

i know the bahai will dispute the part about them teaching Jesus is not important to mankind. however, in defense of this claim about their teachings, i would point out that the bahai totally reject the teachings the apostles and their successors handed down to us. they advocate abandoning those teachings as though they are unimportant to the world. whereas, every Christian should know that there is not substitute in this world for the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

no one and no group can be preaching the truth if they reject the Real Presence. i state that unequivocally and without reservation. for catholics, that alone is all you need to know about whether a person who claims to possess the truth actually does possess the truth.

i know we can debate doctrines and beliefs and history and scripture until we are all blue in the face, until the cows come home, if you will, but the bottom line is that no one who rejects the Real Presence can possibly possess the truth about the Divine Mysteries and reality. when by chance their teachings agree with the teachings of the RCC, there is no reason to dispute them, but that does not mean that because, just like the blind sow, occasionally a false religion throws out something that agrees with the RCC we should subsequently find their false teachings acceptable.

discernment is also a gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the apostles and the Holy Spirit indwells in the RCC, but even our bishops must continuously seek holiness if they are to best discern the workings of the Holy Spirit.
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You make good points.

My objection to the presence of the Baha’i in this forum AT ALL is that they are using it as a platforum (I just coined that word) to broadcast their message since they have nothing to rival CAF in terms of audience.
 
Techno2000 said:
Randy you’re not dealing with the the mind of Baha’u’llah here, you’re dealing with something much worst.

Posted by Servant19
Baha’u’llah did not sit around musing about what He could write next.

The majority of His Writings were not actually written by Him at all. Such was the rapidity of His Revelation that He would require up to 8 secretaries all at once to record the Word which was being revealed, often for hours and hours on end.
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If true, that is troubling, isn’t it? :sad_yes:
 
Techno2000 said:
Yes, it looks like The Baha’u’llah was dabbling in the occult
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Maybe not intentionally or even knowingly.

I personally believe that “masters” or “gurus” like this are led astray from a very early age by evil spirits who represent themselves as messengers of God. Because angels are vastly superior to us, it is easy for them to teach and reveal all sorts of things to the young, potential guru to win his or her confidence. Later, that “wisdom” will also astound those who hear it and win followers who accept such knowledge as miraculous. But it is not from God.

As you probably know, his real name was Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, and here’s a photo:

 
another aspect of this whole discussion about interpreting scripture is that it is much harder to communicate in writing than in words. the written word lends itself to interpretation and, unless the author of the words is present to explain what he or she meant, as we see repeatedly the same written words can be interpreted in many ways depending upon who is doing the interpretations.

add to that the fact that the apostles were putting Jesus’ oral words to them in to writing at least a few years after His Ascension and it is probable that the written words were not going to be as precise and clear as the oral teachings that Jesus gave to the apostles. that is why it is the apostles and their successors alone who have the divine authority to interpret what they wrote.

even though the apostles knew the weaknesses inherent in the use of written words, they still thought it useful to have the written accounts of the life and words of Jesus. there are several, at least, possible reasons they decided to write the Gospels. first and foremost may be that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. another reason might be that they wanted the flock to have access to Jesus’ words even in the absence of any priest or bishop. another reason might be that they thought that putting the Gospel in to writing might prevent future arguments about what Jesus taught (and while it appears that this reason was not borne out by subsequent history, i.e. the Great Schism and the protestant reformation), we cannot know how often the written words served precisely this purpose on other occasions where disputes arose.
 
Randy_Carson said:
The Prophet Isaiah did.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The child will be called “Mighty God”. That’s the incarnation, Servant - prophesied and fulfilled in the Son of the Virgin Mary, Jesus of Nazareth.

I think the appropriate phrase now is:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-taHLMpCdtlk/UD1iXhri0bI/AAAAAAAAGh4/rcp6LVhvsO8/s1600/Boo+Yeah.jpg
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I would believe your conclusion here dear Randy, if you can show me when Jesus was called Everlasting Father, and if you can show me how Jesus ever talked about governance? How did Jesus put the government upon His shoulder?

This verse is in reference to Baha’u’llah who was entitled all of those Names. He has come in the station of the Everlasting Father, and the government is upon His shoulder.

🙂

( I like your photo, he’s cute 🙂 )

.
 
Servant19 said:
I would believe your conclusion here dear Randy, if you can show me when Jesus was called Everlasting Father, and if you can show me how Jesus ever talked about governance? How did Jesus put the government upon His shoulder?

This verse is in reference to Baha’u’llah who was entitled all of those Names. He has come in the station of the Everlasting Father, and the government is upon His shoulder.

.
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Could you first tell me about the virgin birth of Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, who later named himself Baha’u’llah?



Weren’t his parents named Khadíjih Khánum and Mírzá `Abbás Núrí?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Could you first tell me about the virgin birth of Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, who later named himself Baha’u’llah?

Weren’t his parents named Khadíjih Khánum and Mírzá `Abbás Núrí?
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Dear friend, please respect the Baha’i Faith and remove the photo of Baha’u’llah first.

God bless you 🙂

.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Could you first tell me about the virgin birth of Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, who later named himself Baha’u’llah?

Weren’t his parents named Khadíjih Khánum and Mírzá `Abbás Núrí?
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Isn’t this thread about Jesus saying He is God?

Maybe you can address this point in the other thread about Baha’u’llah being a Saint?

.
 
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