Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[ChristIsTheWay]

There has been much focus in the discussion on the nature of the Baha’i view of their leader, Baha’u’llah, and their view of Jesus. Baha’i please correct me if I am wrong, however, from the reading I have done so far, Baha’i do not have a faith which is focused on the worship of Baha’u’llah. Instead, they focus on his teachings. Which were to learn to live as Moses, Elijah, Abraham, and Jesus, in all of life. To dare to approach that which is Holy and is without name, to walk with Him, to actually know one is with Him, in the same manner these men lived.

I think because Christianity is focused on Jesus, Christians don’t get that your faith is focused on teachings and the Lord, the Father, the I Am, knowing one’s own soul, and daring to approach God as His Child. Bringing the light of Heaven into one’s heart and soul and being. You do not exalt Baha’u’llah as we do Jesus. You see him as your leader and father of your faith who told you, you are a child of God, live it, be it, have the faith of a mustard seed and move mountains, engage the hearts of men as one, allow God to call you to Him and remain. Don’t do miracles, be miracles.

Is that anywhere near right?

I’d say you’re very close to what we as Baha’i believe. I am a new Baha’i, so I can’t say with absolute certainty but from what I’ve learned so far, I’d say you’re definitely in the ball park, if not right on the money. Thanks for being so kind in your assessment of our religion. It is appreciated. Servant19 is also right about Abdu’l-Baha being a prime example of what being faithful to God and Baha’u’llah means in practice. I wish I had more to add to this discussion but this all I have right now. Still getting my feet wet as a Baha’i. God bless you all.

 

[Little_Star_1]

hello little star,

now you said this in the first paragraph…

then in the second paragraph you say…

now first and foremost my religion is Christianity,but my faith is Roman Catholic.

if any denomination of Christianity came on a Roman Catholic forum and said things that dont match up with the faith of the RC forum im pretty sure they would get the replies similar to the Baha’is who have come on here…

now i can see some of God in what they say but first and foremost this is why i think that you maybe loosing sight why the conversations are what they are…

if im a million miles away im sorry,the thread previous to this is the size of war and peace.my eyes water after ten minutes of reading it its that long.lol…

God bless

just read the post above,very nice indeed…

The thing is this, it is a forum, not a Catholic service. This is a thread where the Baha’i have a chance to open up to members of other faiths and answer questions regarding their religion. There is a reason why the forum allows people of other faiths to discuss their faith here. An inter-faith dialogue is healthy as long as it is respectful.

Also, Christians are require to show a high level of respect to any and everyone at all times. To use the fact that a group belonging to another faith may have traditions or beliefs that differ from your own as an excuse to out and out attack them, is to act out of accordance with what our faith instructs us to do. Sure, it may be human, but it is not Christian.

If anything, this dialogue presents the challenge to exercise your adherence to our religion. I mean, if Christ said love your enemies, it sure does direct us to love those that are not against us but may believe differently than we do. It is a chance to show some maturity in your faith.

I am not losing sight of anything. They are throwing away one of the foremost doctrines of our faith in the pursuit of defending it. What they don’t see is that they have nothing to defend against.

 

[Jcc1960]

It is important to understand that as Christians we believe that Jesus Christ is the One about whom the prophets prophesied. In his taking on flesh and dwelling among us the fullness of God’s revelation of himself was given to mankind.

So when we say that Jesus is not “just a prophet” we are drawing a distinction between Jesus and every other man who has ever lived on this earth. No prophet points to himself. Jesus always pointed to himself: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

Jesus is absolutely unique in that he is God among us; not simply a wise prophet, or a good teacher, or one more in a long line of manifestations.

From the Christian view, when Muhammad said that it does not “befit the majesty of God that He should take unto Himself a son” he is in direct contradiction to the very revelation of God Himself and is therefore a false prophet, leading people away from Truth Himself.

I have been traveling and have not posted on this thread since soon after it started, but this goes to the heart of the matter as far my issue with the Baha’i faith is concerned, and that is the intrinsic contradictions in a faith that embraces contradicting prophets as well as contradicting beliefs. One cannot believe in the resurrection and at the same time in reincarnation. One cannot simultaneously believe that Jesus is the Son of God and believe that God does not have a Son. This seems to be a question of reason as well as religious belief and I cannot see how one reconciles, even logically, the simultaneous belief in contradicting doctrines and “prophets”.

Steve, welcome back. You have clearly stated your Christian beliefs, and I thank you for that. Your understanding of Baha’i beliefs is still lacking, however. You say that Baha’is embrace “contradicting prophets as well as contradicting beliefs”. No, that is not what Baha’is do. We do not embrace the contradictions, nor deny them, we resolve the contradictions.

There are many specific beliefs in different religions that are conflicting. We reject those beliefs. For instance, we do not believe in reincarnation, and our message to those who do is that they need to change their understanding of rebirth. We say that it means to be reborn into the spiritual realm, not the earthly realm. With regards to a prophet returning, like Elijah returned as John the Baptist, that is not reincarnation, but it is a return of another prophet in the same position and role as Elijah. And, as far as the return of Christ, it is the return of a new Manifestation of God that fulfills the prophecies of His return, Who we believe is Baha’u’llah.
.
There is no violation of logic or reason in this. It does involve rejecting interpretations of scripture that are near and dear to the hearts of billions of followers of the existing religions. Well, each of those religions started with a handful of followers, and rejected previous interpretations, so it is logical that the Baha’i Faith should do the same.

 

[Servant19]

I came back to make a clarification. What Baha’i teaches is for us to realize that we are One with God and to remain aware of that in all that we do. As a Christian, my focus would still be on Jesus and asking that he bring me the insight and the focus to raise my awareness of my oneness with God.

I kind of get what you mean about how you regard Baha’u’llah. Can’t describe it, but feel it. But, for me the role you assign to him is already established in me as the role played by Jesus. However, I am sure Jesus would not have a problem with me giving my respect and feeling a kinship of sorts between he and Baha’u’llah. In my human mind, it would be like inviting a friend along on this journey I am taking with Jesus to God.

Please don’t think I see this last comment as doctrine of any sorts. I learn by placing these types of links in my mind. It is not intended to diminish Jesus or Baha’u’llah. Just how my heart can hold it is all.

To Baha’is there is no distinguishing between the Persons of Jesus and Baha’u’llah, the only difference is that at this moment (today) the Teachings of Baha’u’llah are less distorted, less interpreted and therefore supremely relevant to conquer the hearts of a global soul in desperate need of guidance.

There are now thousands upon thousands (maybe even millions) of people who are not registered Baha’is who have graduated from the Ruhi program and are implementing the service outcomes it is suggesting.

So, there are multitudes of people who are living the LIFE of a Baha’i who are not yet registered Baha’is, which is WONDERFUL.

However, at some point, there comes a time when these individuals will have to make a decision. When you are implementing the deeds and services suggested through Baha’u’llah’s Revelation, and see the amazing outcomes it produces creating the Kingdom of God within your community, then why would you “wilfully” deny Baha’u’llah and not register yourself as a Baha’i and partake of the spiritual bounties that registered Baha’is can partake in, namely the Nineteen Day Feast, Baha’i elections and serving on Baha’i administrative institutions, and contributing to the Baha’i Fund?

Its a question that nearly all protagonists in Baha’i community endeavours face on a daily basis, for for the most part, its a no-brainer.

Hope that helps. Blessings and light

 

[Servant19]

I’d say you’re very close to what we as Baha’i believe. I am a new Baha’i, so I can’t say with absolute certainty but from what I’ve learned so far, I’d say you’re definitely in the ball park, if not right on the money. Thanks for being so kind in your assessment of our religion. It is appreciated. Servant19 is also right about Abdu’l-Baha being a prime example of what being faithful to God and Baha’u’llah means in practice. I wish I had more to add to this discussion but this all I have right now. Still getting my feet wet as a Baha’i. God bless you all.

It is a blessing to read your thoughts on this thread, dear brother

May Baha’u’llah bless all your selfless services in His name

 

[Servant19]

Then why are you bothering with me? I mentioned nothing about proofs, what I am doing is questioning central elements of bahai faith whereas you want to provide something personal and establish emotional connections and beliefs.

Ignatian, I can probably list a total of 20 posts from this thread and the other Baha’i thread which have answered each and every question you claim that has not been answered by the Baha’is

God bless

 

[Servant19]

So you would maintain against what some other bahai have said that the manifestations are individuals? That Jesus is not literally MOses or Abraham? Only in the sense by which they share a similar nature?

Show me the post where a Baha’i has said that Manifestations of God are NOT individuals?
That Jesus is LITERALLY Moses…just one post?

A post number will do…

 

[Servant19]

Then explain it to me.

Explain what to you Ignatian?

 

[Servant19]

For one thing you are lying not only to me but to yourselves when you say we both agree. You know this is not true and that we contradict each other but it is so hard for bahai to accept the reality of people contradicting, its as if you cannot face reality. You would if you could say to Jesus and the pharisees “Come on guys we all agree, we’re all one.” despite Jesus calling the pharisees snakes and sons of satan.

No, Baha’is never said we don’t contradict the Catholic Faith.

Baha’u’llah does not contradict the Words of Jesus found in the Bible. Its very simple…
In fact, there is sincere academic argument to say that the Catholic Faith itself contradicts the Words of Jesus.

EVERYTHING else is mere interpretation and conjecture.

So please tell me again where the deception is?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, welcome back. You have clearly stated your Christian beliefs, and I thank you for that. Your understanding of Baha’i beliefs is still lacking, however. You say that Baha’is embrace “contradicting prophets as well as contradicting beliefs”. No, that is not what Baha’is do. We do not embrace the contradictions, nor deny them, we resolve the contradictions.

There are many specific beliefs in different religions that are conflicting. We reject those beliefs. For instance, we do not believe in reincarnation, and our message to those who do is that they need to change their understanding of rebirth. We say that it means to be reborn into the spiritual realm, not the earthly realm. With regards to a prophet returning, like Elijah returned as John the Baptist, that is not reincarnation, but it is a return of another prophet in the same position and role as Elijah. And, as far as the return of Christ, it is the return of a new Manifestation of God that fulfills the prophecies of His return, Who we believe is Baha’u’llah.
.
There is no violation of logic or reason in this. It does involve rejecting interpretations of scripture that are near and dear to the hearts of billions of followers of the existing religions. Well, each of those religions started with a handful of followers, and rejected previous interpretations, so it is logical that the Baha’i Faith should do the same.

Thanks for your response. Let me first clarify my position.

What prompted my post was the statement from Muhammad concerning the Son of God. It is my understanding that you hold Muhammad as a true prophet and manifestation of God. Please correct me if I am wrong. You also hold Jesus as a true prophet and manifestation of God. Yet one denies the other. I am sorry, but that is a direct violation of reason and logic. I realize that you embrace many other “prophets” and “manifestations” of God but for the sake of discussion let’s consider just these two for now.

The only way that one can reconcile these two beliefs (God does not have a Son / Jesus is the Son of God) is to deny what these very religions say about their own beliefs and proceed to construct one’s own meaning. Each of the beliefs contradict one another and each of them would deny the Baha’i faith which has created its own interpretation of the teachings of both Muhammad and Jesus.

It offends the Christian to have Jesus placed in the same category as Muhammad, or Buddha, or Krishna, or Zoroaster or any other being in the universe. That is why I wanted you to understand very clearly the Christian position concerning Jesus. He simply cannot be compared to the rest. He is the one they all seek, even unknowingly. As I said, Jesus does not point us to another, as prophets do, but rather to himself. This is just one among many aspects of the Christian faith that is denied or ignored by those of the Baha’i faith, yet they still profess Jesus as a manifestation of God.

Either Jesus was exactly who he claimed to be; the Son of God and Savior of the world, or he was not. There is no grey area here. Jesus was either the Son of God or he was a liar and a complete fraud. One must deny the very words of Christ himself in order to accept the teachings found in the Baha’i faith. That is what I do not understand.

 

[daler]

Thanks for your response. Let me first clarify my position.

What prompted my post was the statement from Muhammad concerning the Son of God. It is my understanding that you hold Muhammad as a true prophet and manifestation of God. Please correct me if I am wrong. You also hold Jesus as a true prophet and manifestation of God. Yet one denies the other. I am sorry, but that is a direct violation of reason and logic. I realize that you embrace many other “prophets” and “manifestations” of God but for the sake of discussion let’s consider just these two for now.

The only way that one can reconcile these two beliefs (God does not have a Son / Jesus is the Son of God) is to deny what these very religions say about their own beliefs and proceed to construct one’s own meaning. Each of the beliefs contradict one another and each of them would deny the Baha’i faith which has created its own interpretation of the teachings of both Muhammad and Jesus.

It offends the Christian to have Jesus placed in the same category as Muhammad, or Buddha, or Krishna, or Zoroaster or any other being in the universe. That is why I wanted you to understand very clearly the Christian position concerning Jesus. He simply cannot be compared to the rest. He is the one they all seek, even unknowingly. As I said, Jesus does not point us to another, as prophets do, but rather to himself. This is just one among many aspects of the Christian faith that is denied or ignored by those of the Baha’i faith, yet they still profess Jesus as a manifestation of God.

Either Jesus was exactly who he claimed to be; the Son of God and Savior of the world, or he was not. There is no grey area here. Jesus was either the Son of God or he was a liar and a complete fraud. One must deny the very words of Christ himself in order to accept the teachings found in the Baha’i faith. That is what I do not understand.

Steve, Maybe I can help on this. I’ll do my best to answer these vital concerns and seemingly contradictory positions held by these religions.

First, Baha’u’llah Himself uses the term “Son” regarding the Divine Identity of Jesus. So all of us who are Baha’i view Jesus as indeed the “Son of God”. We are agreed as to this Title, but our understanding of it seems to be at variance with traditional Literal interpretation by many Christians as to what that means, or implies.

My own understanding is this. That the Prophets or Manifestations of God are acutely close, or spiritually intimate, with God. It is that Intimacy with Him which is implied by the various Titles used in association with these Manifestations.
For Example:
Abraham was the “Friend” of God. Does that mean that God was not Friends with Moses or Jesus? That doesn’t make sense.
Moses was His “Lawgiver”, or Intercolator. Does that mean the others were not?
Jesus is called the “Son” of God, yet He Himself says that we are all sons of God. Was Moses not His spiritual Son, and Abraham also?
Muhammad is called the “Apostle” of God, but there were other Apostles.
The Bab is the “Gate” of God. Were there not other Gates, or Doors to the Vineyard of God’s Presence?
Baha’u’llah is the “Glory” of God, but all of the Prophets let a little bit of God’s Glory shine upon the faces of humanity.

But to your point about the Quran where it says that God does not have a “Son”, I believe that this should be held next to the appellation of Ruhu’llah, the Spirit of God, which is applied to Jesus.
Is He (Jesus) not extremely exalted by this term of His being the very “Spirit” of God? There is supreme power in this single phrase, to describe was as the Spirit of God, is there not?
So the Muslim position seems to me to simply be saying that the normal sense of the word “son” as a literal son is not something to be understood in that way. It is not a detraction from the Station of Christ, in my opinion, but is understood in the context of Jesus holding the same position, in one sense, as my big brother held where my own dad was concerned (I was the youngest). That my father entrusted my older brother, and later myself, to represent him, and carry his word with us, in certain dealings with people. We could speak for him, as it were.
The Catholic view, along with other Christians have a sore point on this, I understand, but to Baha’is, there is not a contradiction or lessening of the Station of Christ, and as I said, we also use the term “Son” of God, but that does not mean that God has DNA which He passed on directly to Jesus, His Spiritual “Son”.

We could surely say that Adam was the Son of God, for there were none before Him, and even He was without father or mother in this world. Does that mean that Adam was greater than Jesus, having “neither” father nor mother? No. Each was sent to us by God to do His bidding, to speak His Words to us, and to communicate His Will and manifest His Presence amongst mankind, and that is what a Manifestation of God is when He “manifests” God’s Presence, Teachings, and Will to humanity.

 

[daler]

You also hold Jesus as a true prophet and manifestation of God. …

That is what I do not understand.

Further, let us consider that in Luke 24:19 it says:

“Jesus of Nazareth, Who was a Prophet, mighty in work and word…”

and in Matthew 6:4 to 6, Jesus “Himself” uses the term Prophet to describe “Himself”!

“But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.”

Therefore, should anyone be offended by the use of the term “Prophet” when both Jesus and Luke are using that term for Christ? No. We must accept it, and then struggle as we must with the other question: What is meant by the term “Son” of God? Is it a “Spiritual” distinction, or a material (familial) relationship?

In light of this, it seems reasonable to assume that Muhammad, Whose claim is that a Spiritual designation is intended. Hence, “Ruhu’llah” Jesus is the “Spirit” of God, or we could say the “Spiritual Son of God”, perhaps. I think this would be right.

As to Baha’u’llah’s Writings:

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence 86 exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified."

 

[daler]

It offends the Christian to have Jesus placed in the same category as Muhammad, or Buddha, or Krishna, or Zoroaster or any other being in the universe…

On the subject of “Incarnation’”

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Baha’u’llah

 

[daler]

I kind of get what you mean about how you regard Baha’u’llah. Can’t describe it, but feel it. But, for me the role you assign to him is already established in me as the role played by Jesus. However, I am sure Jesus would not have a problem with me giving my respect and feeling a kinship of sorts between he and Baha’u’llah. In my human mind, it would be like inviting a friend along on this journey I am taking with Jesus to God.

Little Star,

In my way of thinking, God “fashions Himself a Pen” from Age to Age whenever He desires to communicate with His children. Whether that “Pen” is outwardly manifested to us in the Person of Moses, Jesus, or Baha’u’llah, it is inwardly held by the Hand of God Himself.

"The Pen of the Ancient King hath never ceased to remember the loved ones of God. At one time, rivers of mercy have streamed from His Pen, at another, through its movement, God’s perspicuous Book hath been revealed. He is the One to Whom none can compare, Whose utterance mortal man can never rival. He it is Who from everlasting hath been established upon the seat of ascendancy and might, He from Whose lips have gone out counsels that can satisfy the needs of the whole of mankind, and admonitions that can profit them.

The One true God beareth Me witness, and His creatures will testify, that not for a moment did I allow Myself to be hidden from the eyes of men, nor did I consent to shield My person from their injury. Before the face of all men I have arisen, and bidden them fulfil My pleasure. My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.

Through the power of the words He hath uttered the whole of the human race can be illumined with the light of unity, and the remembrance of His Name is able to set on fire the hearts of all men, and burn away the veils that intervene between them and His glory. One righteous act is endowed with a potency that can so elevate the dust as to cause it to pass beyond the heaven of heavens. It can tear every bond asunder, and hath the power to restore the force that hath spent itself and vanished….

Be pure, O people of God, be pure; be righteous, be righteous…. Say: O people of God! That which can ensure the victory of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, His hosts and helpers on earth, have been set down in the sacred Books and Scriptures, and are as clear and manifest as the sun. These hosts are such righteous deeds, such conduct and character, as are acceptable in His sight. Whoso ariseth, in this Day, to aid Our Cause, and summoneth to his assistance the hosts of a praiseworthy character and upright conduct, the influence flowing from such an action will, most certainly, be diffused throughout the whole world."

Baha’u’llah

 

[doormouse73]

after reading most of the last thread and this new one.

why do i get the feeling that in debate the bahais quote the their prophet in the same way the muslims do with the Koran…

its like a circular argument…

God bless…

 

[Jcc1960]

Thanks for your response. Let me first clarify my position.

What prompted my post was the statement from Muhammad concerning the Son of God. It is my understanding that you hold Muhammad as a true prophet and manifestation of God. Please correct me if I am wrong. You also hold Jesus as a true prophet and manifestation of God. Yet one denies the other. I am sorry, but that is a direct violation of reason and logic. I realize that you embrace many other “prophets” and “manifestations” of God but for the sake of discussion let’s consider just these two for now.

The only way that one can reconcile these two beliefs (God does not have a Son / Jesus is the Son of God) is to deny what these very religions say about their own beliefs and proceed to construct one’s own meaning. Each of the beliefs contradict one another and each of them would deny the Baha’i faith which has created its own interpretation of the teachings of both Muhammad and Jesus.

It offends the Christian to have Jesus placed in the same category as Muhammad, or Buddha, or Krishna, or Zoroaster or any other being in the universe. That is why I wanted you to understand very clearly the Christian position concerning Jesus. He simply cannot be compared to the rest. He is the one they all seek, even unknowingly. As I said, Jesus does not point us to another, as prophets do, but rather to himself. This is just one among many aspects of the Christian faith that is denied or ignored by those of the Baha’i faith, yet they still profess Jesus as a manifestation of God.

Either Jesus was exactly who he claimed to be; the Son of God and Savior of the world, or he was not. There is no grey area here. Jesus was either the Son of God or he was a liar and a complete fraud. One must deny the very words of Christ himself in order to accept the teachings found in the Baha’i faith. That is what I do not understand.

Steve, I understand your position. As a faithful Catholic, you truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and also is God, along with the Holy Spirit, a Triune God. And you believe that is what He claimed to be, different from any other person that ever walked the earth, far above any prophet. That is how the Church has interpreted the scriptures and other writings of the Apostles and Patriarchs.

Baha’is do not ignore the fact that this is the interpretation of the Church, and, with some variation, most Christians. It’s just that we have a different understanding of what Jesus said and did, which is different from what Christians believe. That is why we are not Christians.

Moses was not a false prophet, yet I suggest you read the very active thread on “if Jesus was clearly the Messiah, then why do Jews reject him.” Jews on this list feel that above anything, Jesus was a test of their faith, and thank God, they passed the test and didn’t follow Him. That is proof if you need it, which I don’t suppose you do, that people can read the same scriptures and have very different understandings of what they mean. It is a question of interpretation, and also a question of recognized authority to interpret. You believe that only the Church has that authority, Jews believe it resides with their religious authorities. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah and His designated successors have that authority, but we each have a responsibility understand for ourselves, not simply follow ancestral beliefs.

 

[SteveVH]

First, Baha’u’llah Himself uses the term “Son” regarding the Divine Identity of Jesus. So all of us who are Baha’i view Jesus as indeed the “Son of God”. We are agreed as to this Title, but our understanding of it seems to be at variance with traditional Literal interpretation by many Christians as to what that means, or implies.

It would seem somewhat presumptuous of me to tell a Muslim, for instance, what Muhammad really meant. And you can be sure that the Muslim interpretation is not the Baha’i interpretation. The Christian understanding of the Son of God is that he is the second Person of the Trinity, that he is eternally God, whole and entire. To take that meaning, the meaning given to us by those who walked with Christ himself, and give it a different meaning to fit a different belief system is to simply invent a new religion without regard to the original meaning.

My own understanding is this. That the Prophets or Manifestations of God are acutely close, or spiritually intimate, with God. It is that Intimacy with Him which is implied by the various Titles used in association with these Manifestations.

And this is the difference. We believe that Jesus Christ is not just acutely close or spiritually intimate with God, but that he is God. This is apparently a belief that you do not hold and therefore your understanding conflicts with one of the central tenets of Christianity. You must reject or ignore the words of the very Person you profess to embrace in order to fit him into your paradigm.

But to your point about the Quran where it says that God does not have a “Son”, I believe that this should be held next to the appellation of Ruhu’llah, the Spirit of God, which is applied to Jesus.

But now you are having to mix in ideas from the Baha’i faith in order to soften the beliefs held in Islam. My question is this: Why believe at all in Muhammad if what he says contradicts your own beliefs? Would you not agree that if a so-called “prophet” is in error on anything that is prophesied he is a false prophet?

Is He (Jesus) not extremely exalted by this term of His being the very “Spirit” of God?

To call him the Spirit of God is to not recognize his eternal state as the only begotten Son of God. He is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Son; they are distinct divine Persons and their relationships should not be confused. So while I can applaud the sentiment in wishing to exalt Jesus Christ, the effort is in error and therefore causes confusion as to the true nature of God. Jesus sends the Spirit, he is not the Spirit.

So the Muslim position seems to me to simply be saying that the normal sense of the word “son” as a literal son is not something to be understood in that way.

And this would be in error according to the Apostles who lived and walked and were taught by him. We believe that Jesus is quite literally the Son of God and the only eternally begotten Son of God. We will also become sons and daughters of God, but through adoption. In his divine Person, Jesus is eternally the Son of the Father. In his incarnation Jesus’ literal Father is God and his literal mother is Mary. Jesus was not the product of human procreation.

It is not a detraction from the Station of Christ, in my opinion

Would you agree that it is a detraction if it is not true?

The Catholic view, along with other Christians have a sore point on this, I understand, but to Baha’is, there is not a contradiction or lessening of the Station of Christ, and as I said, we also use the term “Son” of God, but that does not mean that God has DNA which He passed on directly to Jesus, His Spiritual “Son”.

Jesus’ DNA was from his mother. Before his incarnation he had no DNA; he is God.

We could surely say that Adam was the Son of God, for there were none before Him, and even He was without father or mother in this world. Does that mean that Adam was greater than Jesus, having “neither” father nor mother? No. Each was sent to us by God to do His bidding, to speak His Words to us, and to communicate His Will and manifest His Presence amongst mankind, and that is what a Manifestation of God is when He “manifests” God’s Presence, Teachings, and Will to humanity.

And here again you equate Adam with Jesus Christ as one in a long line of manifestations. Yes, we could certainly call Adam a son (with a small “s”) of God, but one huge difference is that Adam was created whereas Jesus is eternal. Jesus created Adam, therefore they are not even in the same universe as far as glory and honor are concerned. I worship Jesus. I would never worship Adam. He was a sinful creature just like me.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, I understand your position. As a faithful Catholic, you truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and also is God, along with the Holy Spirit, a Triune God. And you believe that is what He claimed to be, different from any other person that ever walked the earth, far above any prophet. That is how the Church has interpreted the scriptures and other writings of the Apostles and Patriarchs.

Baha’is do not ignore the fact that this is the interpretation of the Church, and, with some variation, most Christians. It’s just that we have a different understanding of what Jesus said and did, which is different from what Christians believe. That is why we are not Christians.

Moses was not a false prophet, yet I suggest you read the very active thread on “if Jesus was clearly the Messiah, then why do Jews reject him.” Jews on this list feel that above anything, Jesus was a test of their faith, and thank God, they passed the test and didn’t follow Him. That is proof if you need it, which I don’t suppose you do, that people can read the same scriptures and have very different understandings of what they mean. It is a question of interpretation, and also a question of recognized authority to interpret. You believe that only the Church has that authority, Jews believe it resides with their religious authorities. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah and His designated successors have that authority, but we each have a responsibility understand for ourselves, not simply follow ancestral beliefs.

May I ask you something? What credence do you give to the Christian Scriptures? Do you actually read the words of Christ as given to us in the New Testament in making your determinations or is there some other source?

Thanks.

 

[SteveVH]

Further, let us consider that in Luke 24:19 it says:

“Jesus of Nazareth, Who was a Prophet, mighty in work and word…”

and in Matthew 6:4 to 6, Jesus “Himself” uses the term Prophet to describe “Himself”!

“But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.”

Therefore, should anyone be offended by the use of the term “Prophet” when both Jesus and Luke are using that term for Christ? No. We must accept it, and then struggle as we must with the other question: What is meant by the term “Son” of God? Is it a “Spiritual” distinction, or a material (familial) relationship?

Okay, I think there has been both miscommunication and misunderstanding on the point of Jesus being a prophet. Yes, in a sense, Jesus is certainly a prophet, but a Prophet like no other prophet. The issue is no so much in saying that Jesus was a prophet but in saying that he was only a prophet, like Moses, or Isaiah.

Here is the Christian position:

“In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.”. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

“In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.” (Saint John of the Cross, The Ascent of Mount Carmel)

As you can see, we await no further revelation from God. He is the fullness of God’s revelation. We await no further prophets because we have no need for further prophecy. If Jesus is who we believe he is, would this not make sense to you?

 

[arthra]

The ascent of Mount Carmel… now that’s a beautiful thing for Baha’is. I’ve walked up there a couple of times!