BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[arthra]

are any of these a Catholic bible.??

Relax doormouse… I was quoting the Gospel of Matthew to illustrate that Pilate had designated that the priests had their own guard …so it implies Roman guards were not used…that’s all. It isn’t from the Qur’an.

But this does illustrate some of the confusion in some circles.

From the New Jerusalem Bible:

			*Next day, that is, when Preparation Day was over, the chief priests and the [Pharisees](http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9282) went in a body to Pilate			 			* 				* 				63 				and said to him, 'Your Excellency, we recall that this impostor  said, while he was still alive, "After three days I shall rise again."		 	*
			* 				64 				Therefore give the order to have the sepulchre kept secure until the  third day, for fear his disciples come and steal him away and tell the  people, "He has risen from the dead." This last piece of [fraud](http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=4851) would be worse than what went before.'			*

•   	 				 				65 				Pilate said to them, 'You may have your guard; go and make all as secure as you know how.*

catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=47&bible_chapter=27&submit=Go

 

[PRmerger]

Wow. How rude. You’re certainly not making Bahaulla-Rama-Ding-Dong look any better.

With all due respect, Lochias, we do not need to speak of any other religion’s spiritual leaders with such irreverence.

 

[PRmerger]

The distinction I would make is that a physical body belongs to the physical realm, it is of and for the material world. The spirit belongs to the spiritual realm.

So how is it that you believe a spiritual entity, an angel, was able to intercept the material world and move a boulder which covered the grave of Jesus?

 

[PRmerger]

The same thing happened after the martyrdom of the Bab. His body riddled from a firing squad of no less than 750 soldiers was, along with His companion who had been tied to Him and suspended high upon a wall as a target, was cast into a mote outside the city of Tabriz. The bodies were guarded by soldiers who sole duty was to see that they were not removed. Nevertheless, on the 2nd or 3rd night some of His followers were able to sneak in and remove the bodies under the cover of darkness. It is possible that the soldiers were either distracted or drunk, but as the latter is forbidden to Muslims, unlikely. If it be God’s will, He can accomplish such a thing.

Interesting…

And why do you think it would be God’s will for the apostles to be able to sneak out the body of Christ under the auspices of the greatest military corp of the time?

 

[PRmerger]

PR,
. I can very much relate to what you are saying. My own father passed away in 2005, just 6 weeks shy of his 100th birthday. I lost a daughter only 4 years ago, on Sept 2nd, and last Monday said prayers at her grave. She was only 24 and how I wish that I could wrap my physical arms around her still.

I hope and pray this gave you comfort and peace.

But I tell you honestly, I know that she is right here beside me, even as I type this to you. I don’t just think it, or feel it, which I do, but I also know it.

I don’t doubt that.

However, which would you rather have: her beside you spiritually, as you feel her now?

Or her beside you physically, body and soul, as she was with you 10 years ago?

There is no need to answer, for I am certain that no one would exchange the physical presence of their loved one for a spiritual feeling that he/she is present in the room.

I am sure you understand my point: having Jesus physically present is 1000 times better than simply having Him present there in spirit.

 

[PRmerger]

There is one Gospel Matthew 27th chapter verses 62-65 that talks about guards but were they “Roman guards” as you suggest?

Now on the following day, which is the day after the Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, saying, “Sir, we remember that the deceiver said, while He was yet alive, 'After three days I arise from the dead.” Command, therefore, that the sepulchre be made secure until the third day; lest His disciples come and steal Him away, and say to the people ‘He is risen from the dead’; and the last error will be worse than the first." Pilate said to them, "Ye have a guard; go, make it secure as ye know how." Then they went and made the sepulchre secure, by sealing the stone and with the guard.

Pilate is telling the priests and Pharisees to set their own guard. If carefully studied I think some of these views that are traditionally thought of can be considered again.

As above there are some amazing parallels between the martyrdom of the Bab and the crucifixion of Jesus…

I think there were both. Roman and Jewish guards.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

are any of these a Catholic bible.??

Yes, of course. The Douay–Rheims Bible is the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version (roughly speaking).

I still don’t see how the Quran came into the picture here, but this area of the Catholic Forums is for questions about the Bahai Faith. If you have a question about the Quran, I suggest starting a new thread, or just try googling it

 

[doormouse73]

Yes, of course. The Douay–Rheims Bible is the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version (roughly speaking).

I still don’t see how the Quran came into the picture here, but this area of the Catholic Forums is for questions about the Bahai Faith. If you have a question about the Quran, I suggest starting a new thread, or just try googling it

i was pointing out that God is no a deceiver,like your man said he was by using this version of reading…he might have done it unintentionally or he may have put in a subliminal…never the less…he did put it in.that was my gripe about how God is to be described…

and when you say yes of course do you mean that they are Catholic or they are not Catholic?

because they are not Catholic are they…

any way back to the q & a of bahais…

 

[doormouse73]

how do you treat apostates in bahai?the same same as islam,mormans,JW ?

 

[Jcc1960]

So how is it that you believe a spiritual entity, an angel, was able to intercept the material world and move a boulder which covered the grave of Jesus?

As far as I know it is possible that spiritual beings can directly interact with the physical world, although it would be far more common for them to influence or inspire us humans to do God’s work.

As far as the stone that covered Jesus’ grave, Matthew 28:2 says there was a severe earthquake, and an angel rolled away the stone. As with much of the Gospels it can be interpreted more than one way. Did the angel cause the earthquake, which moved the stone? Did the angel move the stone with such force that it appeared to be an earthquake? Or, for skeptics, was the earthquake due to natural causes? The way the story is told is a testament of faith and also a test of faith. As such it does not appear to me as a literal eyewitness account. But, it could have happened that way.

 

[Jcc1960]

how do you treat apostates in bahai?the same same as islam,mormans,JW ?

Good question, thank you for that.

This depends on the nature of the apostasy. There are some people who simply decide that they no longer believe, in which case we treat them with love, respect their wishes, and if they still want to continue to associate with Baha’is they are welcome to do so. In some cases they are family members of Baha’is so I would hope would still want to associate with Baha’is, but that depends on them.

If someone still professes faith, but decides to act in gross violation of the teachings then the Baha’i administrative institutions may remove their administrative rights, meaning they will not be permitted vote, serve on institutions of the Faith, or donate to Baha’i funds. They would still be welcome to join us in prayer, and participate in other ways.

If someone claims to be a Baha’i yet acts intentionally to undermine the Institutions of the Faith, or even to create a sect or schism, that is an extremely serious violation of Baha’u’llah’s Covenant and as a result, Baha’is are required to cut off all association with such persons. This is fortunately an extremely rare occurrence.

Does that answer you question?

 

[Lochias]

With all due respect, Lochias, we do not need to speak of any other religion’s spiritual leaders with such irreverence.

Reverence is reserved for the holy. Their spiritual leader may be a decent fellow (or not, as the case may be) but I do not treat religious figures outside of our Church with reverence. It would be wrong.

 

[PRmerger]

Reverence is reserved for the holy. Their spiritual leader may be a decent fellow (or not, as the case may be) but I do not treat religious figures outside of our Church with reverence. It would be wrong.

All people deserve reverence. No one, esp. a leader of a peaceful religious group, ought to have his name disrespected with derogatory associatons/wordplays.

Wow. How rude. You’re certainly not making Bahaulla-Rama-Ding-Dong look any better.

 

[AveChriste11]

Good question, thank you for that.

This depends on the nature of the apostasy. There are some people who simply decide that they no longer believe, in which case we treat them with love, respect their wishes, and if they still want to continue to associate with Baha’is they are welcome to do so. In some cases they are family members of Baha’is so I would hope would still want to associate with Baha’is, but that depends on them.

If someone still professes faith, but decides to act in gross violation of the teachings then the Baha’i administrative institutions may remove their administrative rights, meaning they will not be permitted vote, serve on institutions of the Faith, or donate to Baha’i funds. They would still be welcome to join us in prayer, and participate in other ways.

If someone claims to be a Baha’i yet acts intentionally to undermine the Institutions of the Faith, or even to create a sect or schism, that is an extremely serious violation of Baha’u’llah’s Covenant and as a result, Baha’is are required to cut off all association with such persons. This is fortunately an extremely rare occurrence.

Does that answer you question?

What Jcc here says is very accurate. Everyone respected my decision to leave the Faith and I was never shunned. I lost touch with them due to my own personal reasons and my social anxiety but everyone has been kind to me in spite of deciding that I no longer believed in the teachings of the Baha’I Faith.

 

[SteveVH]

I think there were both. Roman and Jewish guards.

You’re right. There were the Temple guards that were used for matters pertaining to Jewish law; one less thing for the Romans to have to worry about. But they had to get the Romans involved in a matter such as an execution which is why they claimed that Jesus said he was King of the Jews. Jesus was crucified, officially, for treason. The Romans could have care less about blasphemy.

What they did care about was keeping the peace which is why Pilate did what he did to begin with. He certainly had an interest in making sure Jesus’ followers didn’t stir up any more trouble and therefore had an interest in guarding the tomb.

 

[daler]

i was pointing out that God is no a deceiver,like your man said he was by using this version of reading…he might have done it unintentionally or he may have put in a subliminal…never the less…he did put it in.that was my gripe about how God is to be described…

and when you say yes of course do you mean that they are Catholic or they are not Catholic?

because they are not Catholic are they…

any way back to the q & a of bahais…

Friend,
The quote from Matthew 27:62 & 63 is the source of the word “deceiver”. If you read the context it is the Jewish priests and Pharisees who used the term.

. 62 "Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate,
. 63 and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’…

You may google the link: biblehub.com/matthew/27-62.htm

 

[daler]

What Jcc here says is very accurate. Everyone respected my decision to leave the Faith and I was never shunned. I lost touch with them due to my own personal reasons and my social anxiety but everyone has been kind to me in spite of deciding that I no longer believed in the teachings of the Baha’I Faith.

What is most important pertaining to religious belief of any kind is that a person come of their own free will, not to blindly imitate others, whether inherited from family traditions, or peer pressure.

Had any of us here been born in India, most likely we would be Hindu, or perhaps Buddhist.
Had we been born in Arabia, for example, most likely we would be Muslim.
Or if born to a family of Jewish background, in all probability, we would inherit those believes.

So if someone is born into a Mormon family, and that is all they know, they tend to imitate or profess the Mormon religion.
Or if someone is born a Catholic, they generally believe in Catholic interpretation and faith.
I was born Methodist, and believed that for about half my life until I found my own beliefs, which aligned with the Baha’i Faith.

We need to be more than imitators of whatever religious group we are surrounded with in order for those beliefs to truly be our own. All must search out the truth for themselves.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

and when you say yes of course do you mean that they are Catholic or they are not Catholic?
…
.

I mean, of course they include Catholic translations - all you have to do is go to the site that compares translations , scroll down to the Douay-Rheims Bible, and you will see “Saying: Sir, we have remembered, that that seducer said, while he was yet alive: After three days I will rise again.”

The Bible translation that English-speaking Bahais use is a matter of personal choice. No doctrinal point is being made when a Bahai quotes a Protestant, Catholic, ecumenical or academic version

 

[doormouse73]

Friend,
The quote from Matthew 27:62 & 63 is the source of the word “deceiver”. If you read the context it is the Jewish priests and Pharisees who used the term.

. 62 "Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate,
. 63 and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’…

You may google the link: biblehub.com/matthew/27-62.htm

That is my point you are behaving and acting like them with your contradictions of God.

 

[tonyfish58]

Reverence is reserved for the holy. Their spiritual leader may be a decent fellow (or not, as the case may be) but I do not treat religious figures outside of our Church with reverence. It would be wrong.

That seems a strange stance to take? Is this what Christ taught us? Is this how we would spread Christs pure word of Love?

I have found a couple of passages worth reflection

1 Peter 2:17-18 KJV 18 - Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. 18 Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

1 Peter 3:2 ESV - When they see your respectful and pure conduct.

1 John 4:16-18 ESV - So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

This is what Baha’u’llah said about Christ - Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-36.html

Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him. Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh XXXVI

Does this not reflect this passage?

John 15 - King James Version (KJV) :26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Regards Tony