BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Jcc1960]

It just doesn’t ONLY have the properties of a physical body.

Does that make more sense to you? When He is glorified, his physical body is beyond physical. Metaphysical. But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t physical.

Again, how is it that you can understand a Person being fully human and fully divine, yet seem to have an inability to grasp that a glorified body is physical and can walk through walls?

The distinction I would make is that a physical body belongs to the physical realm, it is of and for the material world. The spirit belongs to the spiritual realm. They coincide in man while we are alive both physically and spiritually. In the case of Christ, and we believe, other Manifestations of God, there is an additional Divine nature that is above and beyond the human soul, but it too pertains to the spiritual kingdom, not the material world.

So, Christ is both human and divine, but that does not mean that the divine nature descended into material existence. They are both present in Christ, the physical body being material, the divine nature being pure spirit.

I
Sure.

But Jesus did indeed rise physically.
I don’t have a problem with that concept. That is how we could overcome death.

Except that our bodies are good and in heaven we shall be as we were intended to be: a body and a soul united for eternity.

Perhaps on earth. But it would be a grave mistake to apply our earthly concepts to heaven. For eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love Him.

One can accept as an article of faith that Christ rose physically. It is certainly true that God is powerful over all things and can perform any miracle. But if He rose physically then His body would again pertain to the material world and be subject to its conditions, except by divine miracle. Miracles are exceptional cases of divine intervention, and there is a wisdom to the fact that they rare and exceptional.

Your statement that bodies are good is important. It seems to me that this was debated in the early centuries of the Christian Era, some arguing that they are inherently evil and must be suppressed until we are freed of them. The idea of a glorified body seems to be a theological compromise that was reached to reconcile the goodness of God’s creation with the evil that man often succumbs to, apparently as a result of the urges of the body. And also answering the idea that the death of the body is bad by saying that it was created to never die.

The Baha’i view is that bodies are good, they are not the cause of evil, it is lack of spiritual development that is the cause of evil. Eternal life is that of the spirit, but saying that is not to denigrate the body or physical existence in general. Our physical existence is our beginning which sets us off onto a journey that can last eternally, if we properly develop our spirit through knowing and serving God and praying for His grace and mercy.

 

[arthra]

Jesus message has many elements, but the most fundamental element is His offer of eternal life through Him.

as for this comment, “Jesus’ message was about selflessness, and Bahaullah has restored that”, it reminds me of the mormons teaching that Jesus’ failed to preserve the path to eternal life for His followers.

bhaullah did nothing for anyone else. he conned people and reaped material rewards (such as prestige, recognition and adoration) in this life.

bhaullah’s teachings serve only to dilute the teachings of Jesus that give every human being an opportunity for eternal life. for this reason, it is best that bahaullah and his teachings be consigned to the dustbin of history.

Eddie,

You’re happy with what you have for now and that’s great…

But you should know that Baha’u’llah sacrificed in His life as well… Spent most of His life in exile… lost His estates …and any position in court life that His birth could have offered Him… Imprisoned in the most foul prisons and all the attempts that were made to poison Him and assassinate Him.

*Why did Christ Jesus suffer the fearful death on the cross?

Why did Muhammad bear persecutions?

Why did the Báb make the supreme sacrifice and why did Bahá’u’lláh pass the years of his life in prison?

Why should all this suffering have been, if not to prove the everlasting life of the spirit?

Christ suffered, He accepted all His trials because of the immortality of His spirit. If a man reflects he will understand the spiritual significance of the law of progress; how all moves from the inferior to the superior degree.

It is only a man without intelligence who, after considering these things, can imagine that the great scheme of creation should suddenly cease to progress, that evolution should come to such an inadequate end!
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 93

 

[tonyfish58]

Hi to all our Christian Friends

I have not had a chance to be a full part of this conversation for now nigh on 2500 threads, so I have just flipped through a couple of threads and I have noticed at times as Bahai’s we do indeed seem a bit blunt!

I would have to agree with comments I have seen that this is indeed a Catholic Forum and yes we are indeed guests here under your fellowship!

We just have to consider as it is so in all Faiths, people become passionate about what they beleive. Each individual is also at His own place in His love of God and we all fall short of how we should react/behave towards each other. We all have to learn what true Humility is.

There are very few that have reached the peak of Humility!

From what I have read and the couple of posts I have made, I think I could summarise the posts to date! As such…

1. The Baha’is have posted that Baha’u’llah is indeed the return that all the Holy Books of the past have Prophesied and have posted their proofs thereof.
2. There have been great questions and answers given from both sides
3. The claims of Baha’u’llah have been repeatably questioned and rejected by the Christians on this Forum as it is your full right to do!

From a Baha’i point of view it is clear as to what now happens, we respect your right to beleive as you do and leave that as it is.

Your love for Christ is a great thing and I in no way wish to take this from you, I have no right to tell you to change your way of thinking, I have no right to tell you to look harder etc etc.

Belief is up to each individual and as Christians you have an obligation also to spread your Faith as we also do as Baha’is.

I hope this never becomes a cause of conflict, as Christian values are what we are all about. May we all enter in to discussion with these thoughts in mind.

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Now can I post of what I see in this world today.

The world has not know conflict and sunk so low morally as we now have. Since the mid 1800’s there has been a great increase of conflict and at the same time a rapid increase in knowledge with a steady decline in morality. We must ask why is this so?

Rightly one could say that the Bible has fore told of these times, but also have other Holy books including the Koran. Ancient American Indians have also seen this in their visions.

There is a great expectation for all the Jews, Christians and even the Muslims that the time foretold will happen or is just about to happen and they will all be vindicated for their beliefs. (General statement as all have varying thoughts re this).

From the time of Christs message to now so many events are recorded where people of the books (be it Christian or Muslim) have failed to live up to the teachings of God. The religions have been divided many times into many ways of belief in the founders.

Why are we as humans so presumptuous that what we beleive will be vindicated? Would not God now give His message as He Willeth to sort out who believes and who actually does not? Did this not happen to the Jews?

The Bible and Koran are clear about this issue and we must be prepared that God will come as He Willeth. We must look with the eyes of a child that has no preconceived ideas. We must be detached from everything including Love in case that Love becomes a veil. We must Test all that claim to be that no False Prophet deceives us.

Friends, let us all make up our own minds, let us search without intent, lets us only be guided by our own heart and prayers. Let us be true lovers of God

Oh that this could be, may Gods Will be done!

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Eddie,

You’re happy with what you have for now and that’s great…

But you should know that Baha’u’llah sacrificed in His life as well… Spent most of His life in exile… lost His estates …and any position in court life that His birth could have offered Him… Imprisoned in the most foul prisons and all the attempts that were made to poison Him and assassinate Him.

*Why did Christ Jesus suffer the fearful death on the cross?

Why did Muhammad bear persecutions?

Why did the Báb make the supreme sacrifice and why did Bahá’u’lláh pass the years of his life in prison?

Why should all this suffering have been, if not to prove the everlasting life of the spirit?

Christ suffered, He accepted all His trials because of the immortality of His spirit. If a man reflects he will understand the spiritual significance of the law of progress; how all moves from the inferior to the superior degree.

It is only a man without intelligence who, after considering these things, can imagine that the great scheme of creation should suddenly cease to progress, that evolution should come to such an inadequate end!
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 93

Arthra - I like this

What Faith is all about, a love for God that this life veils us from.

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

It just doesn’t ONLY have the properties of a physical body.

But Jesus did indeed rise physically.

PR, .
. My thoughts are that the eternal is spiritual, and independent of the material world, at some point… The material world exists to supply energy for some purpose, which I think of as temporary, but necessary, for the development of our souls.
. Somehow I do not see Christ as being “dependent” upon a source of material energy for His existence. I separate His eternal identity from His mortal frame. That is how I see it.
. So for me, He existed before His birth, before even the birth and life of Mary, and even as He says, “Before Abraham was, I am.”

. So His existence never did “depend” upon a material body. That is just how He showed Himself to us. Then, when He did this, and started “talking”, there were some amongst us who decided to shut Him up. They killed Him, as they did John the Baptist, and Isaiah.

. That eternal and Holy Being can take on a suit of flesh whenever God wills it to be, and no matter how many times we try to silence “Him”, He cannot be silenced nor gotten rid of. I am reminded of a verse which, although we may not perceive things quite the same way (which is ok), I would like to share with you.

. "“Give heed to my warning, ye people of Persia, If I be slain at your hands, God will assuredly raise up one who will fill the seat made vacant through my death; for such is God’s method carried into effect of old, and no change can ye find in God’s mode of dealing.”

. “Should they attempt to conceal His light on the continent, He will assuredly rear His head in the midmost heart of the ocean and, raising His voice, proclaim: ‘I am the lifegiver of the world!’ …

. And if they cast Him into a darksome pit, they will find Him seated on earth’s loftiest heights calling aloud to all mankind: ‘Lo, the Desire of the world is come in His majesty, His sovereignty, His transcendent dominion!’

. And if He be buried beneath the depths of the earth, His Spirit soaring to the apex of heaven shall peal the summons: ‘Behold ye the coming of the Glory; witness ye the Kingdom of God, the most Holy, the Gracious, the All-Powerful!’”

. “Within the throat of this Youth, there lie prisoned accents which, if revealed to mankind to an extent smaller than a needle’s eye, would suffice to cause every mountain to crumble, the leaves of the trees to be discolored and their fruits to fall; would compel every head to bow down in worship and every face to turn in adoration towards this omnipotent Ruler Who, at sundry times and in diverse manners, appeareth as a devouring flame, as a billowing ocean, as a radiant light, as the tree which, rooted in the soil of holiness, lifteth its branches and spreadeth out its limbs as far as and beyond the throne of deathless glory.”

. from the Writings of Baha’u’llah

 

[SteveVH]

Steve wrote:

“It seems that you believe that Christ came to teach us how to be good people and that every now and then the world needs to be reminded of this; thus the various manifestations of God. That is why Jesus is just one in a long line of manifestations. And to what end? To carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. Yet it is self evident that with all of the advances in technology, medicine, agriculture, education, etc., that we have not advanced at all as far as men’s hearts are concerned.
Since Baha’u’llah arrived, the worst atrocities in the world have occurred and are still occurring as we speak. He has changed nothing. We do not have a new heaven and a new earth.”

I think Steve’s attitude about humanity is very dark indeed and that with all the advances made to day he still sees no hope for humanity…

Had the rulers of the time of Baha’u’llah accepted His admonition to establish a world parliament and an international court of arbitration… It’s possible WWI could have been averted… Humanity still has a responsibility to accomplish a great deal…but simply denying that mankind can improve and advance is extremely dark and pessimistic in my view.

You would be very correct in saying that I put little if an faith in men. My faith, as for the salvation of mankind, is in Jesus Christ. It is not a salvation based upon human institutions in which we progressively build our own perfect society. It is eternal life in the very presence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit where we behold the face of God and share in his very life. We will need no court of arbitration for no evil can exist there. It is so far beyond Baha’i expectations that there really is no comparison.

The Baha’i faith is pseudo-messianic with a very worldly view of man’s destiny. And if I sound a little dark about the progress of mankind it is because I am a little dark about it. A Catholic priest was just beheaded in Syria, just one of the many innocents being slaughtered in that country alone. The atrocities being committed by mankind are beyond description. It is self-evident to anyone with a rational mind that mankind is capable of great evil. We must fight it everywhere we find it but it will only be finished when Christ returns.

Does your idea of salvation have anything to do with one’s destiny after death? It always seems to come down to building the perfect society. But what happens when one dies?

 

[tonyfish58]

Does your idea of salvation have anything to do with one’s destiny after death? It always seems to come down to building the perfect society. But what happens when one dies?

Steve - Hi from down under

The Baha’i Faith has a lot of scripture re the progress of the Soul after our death. Here is a link to quite a bit of material if you are interested - bahai.org/dir/beliefs/life_death

Salvation is a word much used today that has a far deeper meaning that we give it credit for. Salvation is belief and action on that belief. One must beleive in Christ and then one must live the life, if we do this then death can not overtake us, we must be born again! It is too easy to say I beleive in Christ thinking that Salvation is in that action and then continue on our merry way in this life neglectful of the morals and virtues we must now live by.

Man is destined to live on this planet as God Intended, let us consider the Lords Prayer? Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your Kingdom come, your will be done,
on earth as in heaven Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours. Now and for ever.

Amen.

Have you considered that the conditions of today could be a direct result of us again rejecting the Message of God? We bring these consequences upon ourselves as we are all tied together in some way or another in Gods Creation. Currently we are like a sick body trying to fix every little ailment with a different cure while all the time rejecting the Most Great Potion!

We are strange creatures indeed.

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

Does your idea of salvation have anything to do with one’s destiny after death? It always seems to come down to building the perfect society. But what happens when one dies?

Steve,
. As important as personal salvation is to the individual, Baha’is are taught to offer their very souls for the rest of mankind that they attain to the recognition of God. We do not worry about ourselves, but rather place our whole trust in Him, submitting our selves to His will, seeking to be “quickeners of mankind”, in service to the pressing needs of society, which is suffering, truly suffering, in so much need of unity of identity as God’s creatures, loved and valued.
. The perfect society is clearly important to Jesus, who prayed in the most powerful prayer in the entire history of the Bible: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, here “on Earth”, even as it is in Heaven”
. so this concern of the Baha’is to assist in our own best ways to bring this about is in total conformity of the prayer and hope of Jesus, the Christ, and as Baha’u’llah asserts

. “Nothing” short of the unity of the “entire human race” will suffice to “heal the ills” which afflict mankind."

. Baha’is fully and sincerely believe that we are living in the time when God Himself is bringing about the long promised “There shall be One Fold, and One Shepherd”, and we live and die with that belief, dedicating our lives to participating in contributing our means, time, and life-blood, as Servant’s cousin did only two weeks ago, toward that Godly goal for humanity in this day.
. “And of the increase of “His” government there shall be no end…”
. Indeed, I am aghast that anyone would belittle or oppose the very purpose of God’s Kingdom on earth, its establishment in every country on earth, which is composed of every diverse race and tribe, for I have with my own eyes seen the fulfillment of the words of Isaiah with regard to the Mountain of the Lord, “All nations shall flow unto it.” and
I myself and others have responded to the call, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord.”
. And yet there are those who doubt, who do not even investigate, though others are being imprisoned, tortured, persecuted, and killed “solely” to bring about God’s promised Kingdom on earth.
“Peace on earth, goodwill towards men.” I implore you as my brother and fellow believer in Jesus Christ Himself to open the eye of your heart and, without prejudice, pray that ye may have a vision regarding the Most Great Day, the Day known as the “Day of God”, for it is here.
. God bless you, my brother, from a fellow believer in God and His Christ

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

In Mark 4:26-29, Jesus addresses His disciples in this manner: (which I find very interesting)

How do Catholics reconcile this “gradual” creation of the Kingdom of God with the cataclysmic, sudden and all-subduing version of the bringing about of the Kingdom of God on earth?

Both are scriptural: the kingdom of God is both a present but largely hidden reality, and a future expectation. If the Kingdom of God were an outward thing, that would be contradictory, but as the Kingdom is a spiritual reality, it is quite possible. The kingdom of God is a present reality in two senses: that it is a quality that is already present in the fellowship of the believers, and that its potential exists and is nurtured. This is true in both Christian and Bahai theology. Consider for example Abdu’l-Baha’s comment on laying the corner-stone for the Wilmette temple: “the Temple is already built.” Did he mean: you friends gathered here are the temple, or did he mean, seen through the eyes of God, the physical temple already exists, for in spiritual terms, potential is a reality, as the oak is in the acorn?

 

[Lochias]

Eddie, maybe upon reflection of this post, you may come to realize how incredibly self-centered the religion of Christ has turned people into.

Wow. How rude. You’re certainly not making Bahaulla-Rama-Ding-Dong look any better. If the Ba’hai religion breeds this kind insular, close-minded and super-rude response from its adherents, I want nothing to do with it. Ever.

Jesus’ message was about selflessness, and Bahaullah has restored that

No man will ever compare to Jesus. You’re wrong. 100%, completely, totally wrong. Jesus suffered, died and rose for our sins. Your guy will never come close, ever, to being what Jesus was, teaching what Jesus did.

Really, your post was one of the most absolutely arrogant things I’ve ever read, and I am offended in the extreme. Way to set an example, pal.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

The world has not know conflict and sunk so low morally as we now have. Since the mid 1800’s there has been a great increase of conflict

Not necessarily: Steven Pinker concludes " Violence has been in decline for thousands of years, and today we may be living in the most peaceable era in the existence of our species. … since the peak of the cold war in the 1970s and '80s, organized conflicts of all kinds—civil wars, genocides, repression by autocratic governments, terrorist attacks—have declined throughout the world, and their death tolls have declined even more precipitously."

The period since WWII is known as “the Long Peace” with good reason - it is a historical anomaly (and long may it last).

In my view the widespread feeling that the world is unsafe is based not on facts, but on (1) personal uncertainties due to rapid change and the inadequacy of old world-views and (2) an enormous widening of our horizon of empathy.

 

[daler]

Both are scriptural: the kingdom of God is both a present but largely hidden reality, and a future expectation. If the Kingdom of God were an outward thing, that would be contradictory, but as the Kingdom is a spiritual reality, it is quite possible. The kingdom of God is a present reality in two senses: that it is a quality that is already present in the fellowship of the believers, and that its potential exists and is nurtured. This is true in both Christian and Bahai theology. Consider for example Abdu’l-Baha’s comment on laying the corner-stone for the Wilmette temple: “the Temple is already built.” Did he mean: you friends gathered here are the temple, or did he mean, seen through the eyes of God, the physical temple already exists, for in spiritual terms, potential is a reality, as the oak is in the acorn?

Sen,
. What an insightful thought. When Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of “this” world.”, He was speaking in the manner of Abdul Baha as well.

. “I was not feeling very well this morning, or I would have gone to church. Everywhere we hear the call of the spiritual world; in everything we behold the works of God. The church bells are pealing in memory of Jesus Christ although more than nineteen hundred years have passed since He lived upon the earth. This is through the power of the spirit. No material power could do this.
. Yet people in their blindness deny Christ, seeking to perpetuate their names in worldly deeds. Everyone wishes to be remembered. Through earthly and material accomplishments one will hardly be remembered nine years, while the memory and glory of Christ continue after nineteen hundred have passed. For His name is eternal and His glory everlasting. Therefore, man should hear with attentive ear the call of the spiritual world, seeking first the Kingdom of God and its perfections. This is eternal life; this is everlasting remembrance.”

 

[daler]

Wow. How rude. You’re certainly not making Bahaulla-Rama-Ding-Dong look any better. If the Ba’hai religion breeds this kind insular, close-minded and super-rude response from its adherents, I want nothing to do with it. Ever.

No man will ever compare to Jesus. You’re wrong. 100%, completely, totally wrong. Jesus suffered, died and rose for our sins. Your guy will never come close, ever, to being what Jesus was, teaching what Jesus did.

Really, your post was one of the most absolutely arrogant things I’ve ever read, and I am offended in the extreme. Way to set an example, pal.

Lochias,
. While Servant’s comment may not have utilized tact, I suspect that what he was referring to is the gross failures, wars, and atrocities committed in the name of Christ, which cannot be denied. The great, great good cannot be denied either.
. As for the bad examples, if we look at those, the greatest slaughtering of humanity has unquestionably been undertaken by supposedly “Christian” nations both in making perpetual wars among themselves, the atrocities of colonization, campaigns of genocide and the Holocaust, the long history of slavery, treatment of Native Americans, the use of atomic weapons, etc, etc, etc.
. Were we to only look at that, his statement is undeniably true. However, what is also undeniable are the good fruits, not just the aforementioned list of bad fruits, for Christ did not intend for so much evil to be committed in His name and He cannot be held responsible for the doings of evil men.
. But let us be fair. Can the doings of evil men be attributed to others of their many Prophets? No! For none of the Prophets have encouraged such things, but always the opposite.
. People judge Islam today by the actions of a few, such as the terrorists and the Taliban. But these extremists no more represent true Islam than the Ku Klux Klan does true Christianity. It is the same in every other religion.
. And where is the charity in your own heart that you speak such slanders about a religion of which you know nothing about? Have you studied objectively the Writings of Baha’u’llah? Clearly you have not, yet you pervert your own tongue and shame yourself before Christ when you speak in such an adolescent and demeaning manner.
. I will speak with Servant privately about his lack of tact in making such a general statement, but meanwhile, I ask you to cast the mote out of your own eye.
. God bless you with wisdom and understanding, love and forgiveness.

Peace to you,
Daler

 

[daler]

You would be very correct in saying that I put little if an faith in men. My faith, as for the salvation of mankind, is in Jesus Christ. It is not a salvation based upon human institutions in which we progressively build our own perfect society. It is eternal life in the very presence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit where we behold the face of God and share in his very life. We will need no court of arbitration for no evil can exist there. It is so far beyond Baha’i expectations that there really is no comparison.

The Baha’i faith is pseudo-messianic with a very worldly view of man’s destiny. And if I sound a little dark about the progress of mankind it is because I am a little dark about it. A Catholic priest was just beheaded in Syria, just one of the many innocents being slaughtered in that country alone. The atrocities being committed by mankind are beyond description. It is self-evident to anyone with a rational mind that mankind is capable of great evil. We must fight it everywhere we find it but it will only be finished when Christ returns.

Does your idea of salvation have anything to do with one’s destiny after death? It always seems to come down to building the perfect society. But what happens when one dies?

Steve,
. I share your grief at the appalling actions of men, the death of this priest, the destruction of churches in Egypt, persecution of Christians, and people of good will everywhere. Are we all not feeling at a loss wondering what to do to get the trainloads of humanity back on its tracks? The question becomes, “How do we accomplish this?” for it can only be accomplished in unity and harmony with the will of God.
. The difficulty becomes getting people to agree what the will of God is, for each has their own opinion. It would seem that a good place to start would be in understanding each other as much as we can. The Christian and the Muslim should familiarize themselves with each others Holy Books, sit down and get to know each other, share hospitality, and engage in inter-Faith dialogue.
. As to human institutions, I agree that they will generally fall short, but “Blessed are the peacemakers”, and some of these institutions are filled with peacemakers. The salvation of mankind will not happen by itself.
. International courts are a step towards justice and reconciliation even if they do not 100% satisfy each claimant. At least there are open channels of dialogue at the United Nations, which has much to do with the prevention of several nuclear conflicts to its credit. That it has not become equal to its vision and ideals is simply because people have not granted it sufficient means to do more.
. There is progress in the world. Much progress. But the news brings stories of tragedy more than stories of the good humanity achieves in its more noble efforts.
. Even as other religions have created “Institutions” to effect positive change in the world, so, too, has the Baha’i Faith, in following its vision according to the inspiration derived from the Writings of Its Authors. That we have supreme optimism for the future does not mean that we do not recognize how great the challenges are. Indeed, it is only by facing reality that we can hope to greet it with change and become the “peacemakers” Jesus and Baha’u’llah desire for us to be.
. God bless you, my friend,
. Daler

 

[PRmerger]

Hi to all our Christian Friends

I have not had a chance to be a full part of this conversation for now nigh on 2500 threads, so I have just flipped through a couple of threads and I have noticed at times as Bahai’s we do indeed seem a bit blunt!

I would have to agree with comments I have seen that this is indeed a Catholic Forum and yes we are indeed guests here under your fellowship!

Indeed.

We just have to consider as it is so in all Faiths, people become passionate about what they beleive. Each individual is also at His own place in His love of God and we all fall short of how we should react/behave towards each other. We all have to learn what true Humility is.

There are very few that have reached the peak of Humility!

From what I have read and the couple of posts I have made, I think I could summarise the posts to date! As such…

1. The Baha’is have posted that Baha’u’llah is indeed the return that all the Holy Books of the past have Prophesied and have posted their proofs thereof.

1. There have been great questions and answers given from both sides

1. The claims of Baha’u’llah have been repeatably questioned and rejected by the Christians on this Forum as it is your full right to do!

From a Baha’i point of view it is clear as to what now happens, we respect your right to beleive as you do and leave that as it is.

Your love for Christ is a great thing and I in no way wish to take this from you, I have no right to tell you to change your way of thinking, I have no right to tell you to look harder etc etc.

Belief is up to each individual and as Christians you have an obligation also to spread your Faith as we also do as Baha’is.

I hope this never becomes a cause of conflict, as Christian values are what we are all about. May we all enter in to discussion with these thoughts in mind.

Regards Tony

Belief is, indeed, up to each individual. Coercion is not a Christian* modus.*

However, Truth is what trumps everything. We as Christians do not profess, “You are free to believe whatever you believe is true, as long as it makes you happy and good.”

 

[PRmerger]

PR, .
. My thoughts are that the eternal is spiritual, and independent of the material world, at some point…

Yes.

The material world exists to supply energy for some purpose, which I think of as temporary, but necessary, for the development of our souls.

No. The material world exists to manifest God’s glory. It makes visible the invisible mystery of the Triune Godhead.

.Somehow I do not see Christ as being “dependent” upon a source of material energy for His existence

Yes. Christ is not dependent upon anything.

I separate His eternal identity from His mortal frame

That is a heresy rejected by Christianity. The body is good and there is no need to separate anyone’s identity from one’s mortal frame.

So for me, He existed before His birth, before even the birth and life of Mary, and even as He says, “Before Abraham was, I am.”

Yes, this is very Catholic!

. So His existence never did “depend” upon a material body. That is just how He showed Himself to us. Then, when He did this, and started “talking”, there were some amongst us who decided to shut Him up. They killed Him, as they did John the Baptist, and Isaiah

Sure.

 

[PRmerger]

The difference with all of these being that Catholics can back up what they claim. No other religion on earth can boast that.

Logic and reason lead to the Catholic Church, if people choose logic and reason. It really is that simple.

 

[PRmerger]

The distinction I would make is that a physical body belongs to the physical realm, it is of and for the material world. The spirit belongs to the spiritual realm. They coincide in man while we are alive both physically and spiritually. In the case of Christ, and we believe, other Manifestations of God, there is an additional Divine nature that is above and beyond the human soul, but it too pertains to the spiritual kingdom, not the material world.

Ok.

So, Christ is both human and divine, but that does not mean that the divine nature descended into material existence. They are both present in Christ, the physical body being material, the divine nature being pure spirit.

Fine.

That still doesn’t answer the question as to how you can understand the Incarnation to be true yet have some sort of obstacle to understanding that a glorified body can walk through walls.

One can accept as an article of faith that Christ rose physically. It is certainly true that God is powerful over all things and can perform any miracle. But if He rose physically then His body would again pertain to the material world and be subject to its conditions, except by divine miracle. Miracles are exceptional cases of divine intervention, and there is a wisdom to the fact that they rare and exceptional.

Great.

So you do understand that the physically resurrected and glorified body of Christ could indeed walk through walls.

Your statement that bodies are good is important. It seems to me that this was debated in the early centuries of the Christian Era, some arguing that they are inherently evil and must be suppressed until we are freed of them. The idea of a glorified body seems to be a theological compromise that was reached to reconcile the goodness of God’s creation with the evil that man often succumbs to, apparently as a result of the urges of the body

How do you know it was a compromise? That seems to be imposing your own truth upon reality.

I suggest that the idea of a glorified body is a truth achieved through the guidance of the Holy Spirit through Holy Mother Church.

The Baha’i view is that bodies are good, they are not the cause of evil, it is lack of spiritual development that is the cause of evil. Eternal life is that of the spirit, but saying that is not to denigrate the body or physical existence in general. Our physical existence is our beginning which sets us off onto a journey that can last eternally, if we properly develop our spirit through knowing and serving God and praying for His grace and mercy.

And grace is at our disposal at every Catholic church and in every Catholic sacrament.

 

[PRmerger]

Point of order: do we know that it was Jesus that rolled back the stone?

Fair enough. However the stone was rolled back, do you believe that this was a lie, or the fact that Jesus walked through walls was a lie?

Baha’is? Esp daler? Any response?