BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[daler]

So I am interested in just what you believe to be man’s destiny and how does he reach that destiny. Does it involve the salvation of one’s soul?

Thanks.

Steve,
. I, too, am blue in the face, brother, but am wearing a smile for you…
. You are a good soul, and I can sense that.
. Your questions are as posted, and my answers shall not appear as quotations, buy in my own words, except to #3 and #4, which cannot be stated more clearly, along with the words of Jesus.

1 - Do you believe we need salvation?

. Absolutely, in my opinion, for we are prone to error and gross misconduct, following our lower animal nature, which some define as sinful. We fail, without help from on high, to attain our full spiritual potential, as though we are mere candles which remain unlit. Which brings us to question #

2 - Do you believe we need a Savior?

. Absolutely, and He appears in every age to light the candle of our hearts. In the time of Abraham, He blessed us with turning us away from idol worship and towards the Oneness of God. Like those who turned towards Noah, all who followed Abraham were saved. Likewise, when Moses appeared with the Laws of God, they who obeyed Him and followed in submission to those Divine Laws were saved. So, too, in the days of the manifestation of the appearance of that Blessed Light Jesus, who believed in Him, believed in God, and those who denied Him and turned away from His face turned away from the the face of God and His Beauty, for God was perfectly reflected to us as the verse plainly states: “He who hath seen Me hath seen the Father.”

3 - How are we saved?

. " “The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of His creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, has gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” (Gleanings 330-31).
.
4 - What do you believe to be the final destiny of man?

. “All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been created.” (Gleanings 214-15).

, "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” Jesus

 

[daler]

One has to wonder why this is an impediment to you, while the idea of the Incarnation is not.

For is it also not true that a person who is 100% man who is also 100% divine “just doesn’t make any sense”?

PR,
. I hope you are well. There is no impediment to our understanding of the Resurrection of Christ, although you and I differ on such things as we have spoken. As to the term “incarnation”, we Baha’is accept what Baha’u’llah says on this matter, and this is our understanding.

. “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

 

[Servant19]

Servant, have you ever considered the fact that Jesus is both God and man. He is still both God and man. A perfect union of the divine with the human; the hypostatic union. Considering this, I find it curious that you doubt that Jesus’ resurrected body would have both the human and divine aspects to it, not separate and limited, but united and unlimited by the laws of nature.

As much as we have conversed it occurs to me that I still know relatively little about your true beliefs. Such as:

• Do you believe we need salvation?
• Do you believe we need a Savior?
• How are we saved?
• What do you believe to be the final destiny of man?

I think the question of salvation may get at the heart of why we seem to talk past each other. It is what makes Jesus Christ, to us, everything; he fulfills the longing of every human heart. We have absolutely no reason to look for anything or anyone else. You have heard this until I am sure you are blue in the face. It is why Baha’u’llah offers us nothing; we have everything in Christ.

So I am interested in just what you believe to be man’s destiny and how does he reach that destiny. Does it involve the salvation of one’s soul?

Thanks.

Hi Steve,

I am quite happy to address your questions, dear brother…

Before we start talking about our need for salvation, I would like to address what is SIN, first and foremost, for if we are not on the same page with sin, how can we progress in our understanding of salvation?

So here goes, and I will be honest with all this, I mean no offense to anyone, but I don’t want to tread on toes etc etc, lets be frank.

Adam and Eve are not REAL people. I believe that the nature of the narrative is simply to enable people to recognize that:

1. We have free will
2. God the Father has designed a Will for us to follow. As with all created things, there is a purpose to our existence.
3. We can CHOOSE to go and align our lives with the Father’s Will or go the opposite direction (which is called traditionally the way of Satan)
4. The Father provides us with “guidance” on what His Will is.
5. If we were to follow His guidance to the best of our ability we will have lived a life that is pleasing to the Father, and will inherently bring us “closer to Him” (reflect Godly attributes)
6. SIN is if we were to NOT follow His guidance to the best of our ability, we will have lived a life that is NOT pleasing to the Father, and this will inherently keep us “further from Him” (we DON’T reflect Godly attributes, there is no such thing as “SATANIC” attributes, just lack of Godly ones)
7. All sin is reflected in an ACTION

Adam acted upon his will rather than upon his Father’s Will and he sinned. The eating of the apple was an ACTION.

Sin is an ACTION.

Now, lets move onto salvation. We only achieve salvation when we align our lives to the Will of God through manifesting ACTIONS which He provides us with guidance for.

IT IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC THING THE MOMENT WE SAY HALELLUJAH!

Faith in a Saviour will not bring salvation. It is Faith AND Works, or as Baha’u’llah put it:

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” (bolding added by myself)

…these twin duties are inseparable.

So the question arises, if I were a good Catholic, feeding the poor, helping the homeless, why would I need Baha’u’llah.

The answer is simple.

1. God loves His creation
2. There is a time and place for all actions.

Today I will go about building a house with a builder and an architect. The house will get built. Will the exact same principles apply if I wanted to build an entire city?
At the same time, if I wanted to build an entire city, would you not suggest that I should do a smaller project first, so I can learn the ropes?

The Father, through Jesus has taught us how to build a house. The Father, through Baha’u’llah has taught us how to build a planet.

IT IS A SIN, let me repeat, IT IS A SIN, to simply assume that just feeding the poor and helping the homeless, generation after generation, with the MASSIVE gulf that still exists between rich and poor (and poverty is just one example) to simply assume that feeding them here and there is the way to salvation. The Catholic church does a lot of good, yet still millions upon millions of children are dying every year from poverty.
Simple intelligence dictates that there needs to be a change of ACTION.

Even Einstein worked it out, doing the same thing again and again expecting different results is a definition of insanity.
Are we feeding the poor because we REALLY care for them, or are we going through the same motions because it will give us so called “salvation”

Some home truths to ponder on there…

IT IS A SIN…

So salvation is achieved through DEEDS. We cannot know what the deeds are, what the Father’s Will is, without showing our Faith in His Divine Teacher. There is no salvation with out the faith and the works.
**
…these twin duties are inseparable…**

 

[Servant19]

Hahaha…seems as though myself and daler were typing “with the same fingers” at exactly the same time

Hows that for UNITY IN ACTION BROTHER DALE??



Allah’u’Abha my sweet friend

 

[daler]

Hahaha…seems as though myself and daler were typing “with the same fingers” at exactly the same time

Hows that for UNITY IN ACTION BROTHER DALE??



Allah’u’Abha my sweet friend

Yes, my Baha’i brother, the Holy Spirit inspired us with the same Words. Indeed, the Spirit of Truth is evident, guiding humanity into all Truth, for Jesus Himself made the promise, and “whatsoever hath proceeded out of His blameless, His truth-speaking, trustworthy mouth, can never be altered…”

. “The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul.”

. "O concourse of bishops! Ye are the stars of the heaven of My knowledge. My mercy desireth not that ye should fall upon the earth. My justice, however, declareth: ‘This is that which the Son hath decreed.’ And whatsoever hath proceeded out of His blameless, His truth-speaking, trustworthy mouth, can never be altered. The bells, verily, peal out My Name, and lament over Me, but My spirit rejoiceth with evident gladness. The body of the Loved One yearneth for the cross, and His head is eager for the spear, in the path of the All-Merciful. The ascendancy of the oppressor can in no wise deter Him from His purpose. We have summoned all created things to attain the presence of thy Lord, the King of all names. Blessed is the man that hath set his face towards God, the Lord of the Day of Reckoning.

O concourse of monks! If ye choose to follow Me, I will make you heirs of My Kingdom; and if ye transgress against Me, I will, in My long-suffering, endure it patiently, and I, verily, am the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful."

 

[Jcc1960]

Well, therein lies your error.

No one has said that Jesus’ resurrected body is “supposedly the same as a physical body.”

What is being proclaimed is that Jesus’ resurrection was a physical resurrection. Not a spiritual one.

Huge difference there.

Right, you are saying that it is in fact a physical body that does not have the properties of a physical body. It doesn’t make any more sense when you say it that way.

One of the many significance of Jesus sacrifice is that He overcame death, would you agree with that? I can see where Christian theologians would tie that to His physical form, but really, think about it, if the spirit survives physical death, isn’t that overcoming death?

For us sinners, eternal life of the spirit in the true sense is not guaranteed, we need to be redeemed by our faith in God and His mercy. That is how we can overcome death. A physical body that doesn’t grow, develop or reproduce is not relevant to that.

 

[PRmerger]

Right, you are saying that it is in fact a physical body that does not have the properties of a physical body. It doesn’t make any more sense when you say it that way.

It just doesn’t ONLY have the properties of a physical body.

Does that make more sense to you? When He is glorified, his physical body is beyond physical. Metaphysical. But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t physical.

Again, how is it that you can understand a Person being fully human and fully divine, yet seem to have an inability to grasp that a glorified body is physical and can walk through walls?

One of the many significance of Jesus sacrifice is that He overcame death, would you agree with that? I can see where Christian theologians would tie that to His physical form, but really, think about it, if the spirit survives physical death, isn’t that overcoming death?

Sure.

But Jesus did indeed rise physically.

For us sinners, eternal life of the spirit in the true sense is not guaranteed, we need to be redeemed by our faith in God and His mercy. That is how we can overcome death.

I don’t have a problem with that concept. That is how we could overcome death.

Except that our bodies are good and in heaven we shall be as we were intended to be: a body and a soul united for eternity.

A physical body that doesn’t grow, develop or reproduce is not relevant to that.

Perhaps on earth. But it would be a grave mistake to apply our earthly concepts to heaven. For eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love Him.

 

[PRmerger]

So are you saying that Jesus really did not enter/exit the room “not using the door” but actually opened and closed it?

IOW: which text in Scripture do you think is lying? The fact that the stone was rolled away, or the fact that Jesus walked through doors?

Baha’i friends: could you please address the above?

Which one is the lie? That Jesus rolled back the stone after His resurrection? Or that Jesus walked through walls?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Baha’i friends: could you please address the above?

Which one is the lie? That Jesus rolled back the stone after His resurrection? Or that Jesus walked through walls?

Point of order: do we know that it was Jesus that rolled back the stone? Matthew says there was an earthquake when an angel came and rolled back the stone, so that the tomb was open for Mary Magdalen and the “other Mary” (not, I think, Mary the mother of Jesus).

It’s only a point of order, because if an immaterial angel could roll back a stone, so could an immaterial resurrected Jesus. And if an immaterial angel could roll back a stone, a material resurrected Jesus could pass through walls. Personally, I see little point in reasoning in this pedestrian and literal way about accounts that are written as *stories *, and which are symbols constructed from metaphors. But according to the Gospel stories, it was an angel, or else the disciples who came simply found the stone rolled back. The point in either case is that it tells us the disciples could get in – not how Jesus got out!

 

[SteveVH]

Hahaha…seems as though myself and daler were typing “with the same fingers” at exactly the same time

Hows that for UNITY IN ACTION BROTHER DALE??



Allah’u’Abha my sweet friend

Its a miracle!

 

[eddie_too]

bahai sounds like a political party with its fundamental teaching that it will change this world in to a paradise.

the catholic resurrection of the dead concerns the transformation of the human body from being corruptible to being incorruptible.

why would a human being want to exist as only an ethereal spirit without his or her body?

without a body, how could we be human?

why would people teach against believing that our bodies will become incorruptible?

 

[Servant19]

The human spirit IS INCORRUPTIBLE…

It’s also the means by which Jesus is present when you gather with a few friends in His name.

The spirit can do more than the body can, it can transcend time AND space…

 

[arthra]

bahai sounds like a political party with its fundamental teaching that it will change this world in to a paradise.

…

Just to note here Baha’is are not “a political party”… A Baha’i in fact cannot be partisan politically… We vote of course as a civil duty but not as say Democrats, Republicans because we’re non-partisan.

The changes that have occurred toward a better world are also through the Grace of God and humanity awakening to the spirit of the age.

We can serve on a non-partisan commission. Some Baha’is have served as Judges…

I think Baha’is are pretty familiar with the belief that Christ rose from dead only we believe it was a spiritual resurrection…

One final comment… and this my own personal belief. I think some of the appearances of Christ after the crucifixion recorded in the Gospels could have been from visionary experiences similar to the Transfiguration on the Mount where the closest disciples saw Moses and Elijah and of course these could also be symbolically interpreted.

 

[eddie_too]

depends on how you define incorruptible.

if by incorruptible you mean the human soul is immortal, i agree.

if by incorruptible you mean that the human soul cannot experience eternal damnation, i disagree.

obviously, the human body corrupts in this world. but after its resurrection, the human body is incorruptible, even the bodies of the souls in hell.

in another sense, the human soul can also corrupt if by corrupt we mean turn away from its ultimate destiny.

so, for good communication it is important that we define the terms we use, especially if we apply them to different concepts, i.e. body, soul, good, evil, etc.

 

[SteveVH]

1 - Do you believe we need salvation?

. Absolutely, in my opinion, for we are prone to error and gross misconduct, following our lower animal nature, which some define as sinful. We fail, without help from on high, to attain our full spiritual potential, as though we are mere candles which remain unlit.

So we are in need of salvation because we are prone to error and gross misconduct. We would agree, however we call it sin; turning our back on God.

2 - Do you believe we need a Savior?

Absolutely, and He appears in every age to light the candle of our hearts. In the time of Abraham, He blessed us with turning us away from idol worship and towards the Oneness of God. Like those who turned towards Noah, all who followed Abraham were saved. Likewise, when Moses appeared with the Laws of God, they who obeyed Him and followed in submission to those Divine Laws were saved. So, too, in the days of the manifestation of the appearance of that Blessed Light Jesus, who believed in Him, believed in God, and those who denied Him and turned away from His face turned away from the the face of God and His Beauty, for God was perfectly reflected to us as the verse plainly states: “He who hath seen Me hath seen the Father.”

So we need a savior to bring us divine law? What is the destiny of a soul who, through human weakness, could not keep the law?

3 - How are we saved?

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of His creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, has gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” (Gleanings 330-31).

Our only duty, then, is to recognize God? As the Scriptures tell us "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder."

4 - What do you believe to be the final destiny of man?

"All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. (Gleanings 214-15).

It is interesting that nowhere in your statements is the suffering, death and resurrection of Christ mentioned; the very act of love that redeemed the world. This is where the disconnect occurs between our views. Christ has defeated sin and death and it is to Him alone that we must submit our lives. He has fulfilled God’s plan to save us by giving his very life. He has paid the price that we cannot pay.

It seems that you believe that Christ came to teach us how to be good people and that every now and then the world needs to be reminded of this; thus the various manifestations of God. That is why Jesus is just one in a long line of manifestations. And to what end? To carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. Yet it is self evident that with all of the advances in technology, medicine, agriculture, education, etc., that we have not advanced at all as far as men’s hearts are concerned. Since Baha’u’llah arrived, the worst atrocities in the world have occurred and are still occurring as we speak. He has changed nothing. We do not have a new heaven and a new earth.

 

[eddie_too]

the Lord’s tomb was empty Easter morning. that is hardly testimony supporting a dead and decaying body as the bahai idea of a spiritual resurrection implies.

anyone can add suppositions to the testimony and subsequent teachings that flowed from the empty tomb, suppositions that support some alternative understanding such as the dead body was still there; or, like the jews of the time claimed, His followers overwhelmed the roman guards and stole the body so as to be able to perpetuate an enormous and enduring scam. a scam pulled off by people who fifty days after the resurrection were still cowering in secret for fear of their lives.

it is clear to me which belief is more supportable and demands less surrender of the senses and reason.

 

[arthra]

Steve wrote:

“It seems that you believe that Christ came to teach us how to be good people and that every now and then the world needs to be reminded of this; thus the various manifestations of God. That is why Jesus is just one in a long line of manifestations. And to what end? To carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. Yet it is self evident that with all of the advances in technology, medicine, agriculture, education, etc., that we have not advanced at all as far as men’s hearts are concerned.
Since Baha’u’llah arrived, the worst atrocities in the world have occurred and are still occurring as we speak. He has changed nothing. We do not have a new heaven and a new earth.”

I think Steve’s attitude about humanity is very dark indeed and that with all the advances made to day he still sees no hope for humanity…

Had the rulers of the time of Baha’u’llah accepted His admonition to establish a world parliament and an international court of arbitration… It’s possible WWI could have been averted… Humanity still has a responsibility to accomplish a great deal…but simply denying that mankind can improve and advance is extremely dark and pessimistic in my view.

 

[eddie_too]

the reason it seems to me that bahai is primarily a political party or philosophy is based on the emphasis its followers give to this world and how to change this world.

from a religious perspective, bahai teachings offer nothing to repair mankind’s relationship with its Creator.

bahai teachings indicate that human beings can atone for their sins by stopping sinning and doing good works. those who cannot become perfect or whose good works are lacking become doomed.

for me, that is the essence of pessimism and defeat. it is all up to the finite and imperfect human creature to somehow convince its perfect and infinite Creator that it is WORTHY of its Creator’s benevolence.

bahai does not address the question of why should infinite and perfect Being be controlled by the acts of finite and imperfect human beings?

 

[arthra]

Eddie wrote:

“bahai does not address the question of why should infinite and perfect Being be controlled by the acts of finite and imperfect human beings?”

Baha’is believe God loves us as imperfect as we are…

God loves His creation and the creation…which we are…humanity … attempts to return that love…

The love that man has for man is also a part of this picture…

Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him – a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation…

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 65

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

I am quite happy to address your questions, dear brother…

Before we start talking about our need for salvation, I would like to address what is SIN, first and foremost, for if we are not on the same page with sin, how can we progress in our understanding of salvation?

I couldn’t agree more.

So here goes, and I will be honest with all this, I mean no offense to anyone, but I don’t want to tread on toes etc etc, lets be frank.

Adam and Eve are not REAL people.

Possibly. However it matters not. God created mankind and mankind disobeyed Him placing him in the position of needing a Savior which God promised to send. That is the point.

I believe that the nature of the narrative is simply to enable people to recognize that:

1. We have free will

Agreed.

1. God the Father has designed a Will for us to follow. As with all created things, there is a purpose to our existence.

Agreed.

1. We can CHOOSE to go and align our lives with the Father’s Will or go the opposite direction (which is called traditionally the way of Satan)

Agreed. And we are told that going the opposite direction leads to both bodily and spiritual death.
You left that part out.

1. The Father provides us with “guidance” on what His Will is.

Agreed.

1. If we were to follow His guidance to the best of our ability we will have lived a life that is pleasing to the Father, and will inherently bring us “closer to Him” (reflect Godly attributes)

Yes, we become closer to God by doing his will.

1. SIN is if we were to NOT follow His guidance to the best of our ability, we will have lived a life that is NOT pleasing to the Father, and this will inherently keep us “further from Him” (we DON’T reflect Godly attributes, there is no such thing as “SATANIC” attributes, just lack of Godly ones)

And what happens to us when we remain apart from God? It seems that you do not wish to recognize the power of evil in the world; that there is one who is battling for our souls. Is this correct?

1. All sin is reflected in an ACTION

We believe that sin occurs in our thoughts and in our deeds, in what we have done and in what we have failed to do. Doing nothing in the face of evil is a sin. So it is not always an “action”.

Adam acted upon his will rather than upon his Father’s Will and he sinned. The eating of the apple was an ACTION.

You are correct in that Adam chose his will over the will of God, represented by the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The sin occurred in giving into the temptation of the serpent who had planted doubt in the hearts of Adam and Eve. They believed that God was holding out on them and that they could be equal (yet apart) from him. They lost their trust in God.

Now, lets move onto salvation. We only achieve salvation when we align our lives to the Will of God through manifesting ACTIONS which He provides us with guidance for.

Our actions are a reflection of our faith and love for God. But our actions do not save us because we constantly fall, even when trying to do our best. No, we need a Savior; Jesus Christ who satisfied Justice by giving his life for the life of the world.

IT IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC THING THE MOMENT WE SAY HALELLUJAH!

That is a very Catholic belief. Conversion is a daily, life long process in which we conform our lives to the will of God. We must run the race and persevere to the end.