BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[happyme]

Because all of God’s Word cannot be contained on papyrus.

LOL!

Perhaps you are not aware that you are on a Catholic forum?

Were you thinking that you are on a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian forum?

Dear friend

If as you say not all of God’s Word can be contained on papyrus how are you so sure that what Christ spoke about happened at Pentecost?

I note that you say that Baha’u’llah is a false prophet, but He fulfills perfectly all that Christ spoke about in the Gospel of John, even showing things to come.

 

[PRmerger]

Dear friend

If as you say not all of God’s Word can be contained on papyrus how are you so sure that what Christ spoke about happened at Pentecost?

Why would I doubt it?

There is nothing more that needs to be said. He has come! He has died! He has risen!

What else is there?

I note that you say that Baha’u’llah is a false prophet, but He fulfills perfectly all that Christ spoke about in the Gospel of John, even showing things to come.

It would appear that any false prophet could make that claim, right?

How do we know when someone who comes after Jesus is teaching false doctrine?

Because he is professing things which are contrary to the faith, given once for all, to the saints.

And that means your prophets, who have said a multitude of things which are divorced from the One True Faith.

 

[happyme]

Have you ever heard of Sacred Tradition?

Those who broke away from the Catholic Church have no choice but to use the Bible as their sole source of faith and are left to their own devices as far as interpreting it. The result is thousands upon thousands of Christian denominations all disagreeing with each other.

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, possessed its faith before the New Testament was even written, much less canonized. Our faith is based in a Person, Jesus Christ, not a book or set of writings. Jesus gave this truth to the Apostles who were then anointed by the Holy Spirit who guided them into all truth. The Church has guarded this truth since the beginning.

The New Testament is only that part of Sacred Tradition committed to writing and does not contain everything given to the Apostles. If you want that you have to come to the Catholic Church who alone possesses the fullness of truth.

Yes my friend I have heard of sacred tradition, we also read about it in Jesus’s words when He was speaking to the Jews who refused to listen to what He had to say.

I also read in the Gospels how the Christian message was being incorrectly taught in the time of the Apostles, and they were very concerned of such things.

Then of course we have the history of the church and the many gatherings and fights about what was true and what was not, decisions were made. Many Christians were pushed away etc. You feel that you have the only truth in the Catholic church, I question that. And of course I believe we are shown by a Messenger of God, that apparently, although the church has done many good things, there are certain inaccuracies as well.

I just wonder why, when proofs can be given from the Old and New testaments of further knowledge from God that you do not investigate, you just turn your backs on discussion.
I find it surprising and sad.

Peace and love to you.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes my friend I have heard of sacred tradition, we also read about it in Jesus’s words when He was speaking to the Jews who refused to listen to what He had to say.

I also read in the Gospels how the Christian message was being incorrectly taught in the time of the Apostles, and they were very concerned of such things.

Then of course we have the history of the church and the many gatherings and fights about what was true and what was not, decisions were made

Yes, and you can thank the Catholic Church for making these decisions so you can know exactly what it was that Jesus said and did.

Many Christians were pushed away etc. You feel that you have the only truth in the Catholic church, I question that. And of course I believe we are shown by a Messenger of God, that apparently, although the church has done many good things, there are certain inaccuracies as well.

Such as what inaccuracies?

I just wonder why, when proofs can be given from the Old and New testaments of further knowledge from God that you do not investigate, you just turn your backs on discussion.
I find it surprising and sad.

Peace and love to you.

Are you aware that this is the 3rd Baha’i thread that has been presented of late here on the Catholic Answers Forum?

So it’s quite odd that you would say that we Catholics are turning our backs on discussion.

It would appear that it is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you have said. Discussion has ensued. Quite lengthy discussion.

I suggest you check out the prior threads in which Catholics have discussed quite eloquently with Baha’is. You seem to be unaware of those discussions, happyme.

 

[pablope]

When we gain our nourishment by growing our own set of teeth, we no longer need mother’s milk. We needed mother at the time, but only until we gained the ability to “chew our own food.”

Once we have the means and the inclination to chew on the Word of God ourselves, we do not need others to chew on it for us. I am not afraid of my own teeth, whether physical or mental, to gain my own understanding. I have no need of priests anymore to chew spiritual food for me and then give it to me pre-digested, so to speak.

It is not a matter of pride, as you see it, but rather, growth and “progress”.

Then what you are saying is contrary to the Christian faith…for as the Bible commands…we are to pray for another…I suggest you look into the doctrine of the Communion of Saints.

And what about the priesthood…the need for it…to offer the continous sacrifice to God…why do the Bahai say there is no need for priests to offer the sacrifice of the Lamb to God?

 

[happyme]

Why would I doubt it?

There is nothing more that needs to be said. He has come! He has died! He has risen!

What else is there?

It would appear that any false prophet could make that claim, right?

How do we know when someone who comes after Jesus is teaching false doctrine?

Because he is professing things which are contrary to the faith, given once for all, to the saints.

And that means your prophets, who have said a multitude of things which are divorced from the One True Faith.

Dear friend

For thousands of years the church has been trying to convince the Jews about Jesus, they have their book as well, and their literal expectations were not met.
To reject someone who speaks with the authority of God, who completes so many prophecies for you to dismiss as any false prophet can make a claim, your words. I would feel that a person would be studying and making very very sure of their stand, because as has been shown in the past many a proud religious following has been found wanting.

I have done this study, and I assure you, the many false prophets I have seen come and go are of no comparison to Baha’u’llah, and the Ocean of His words and Truth. A Messenger of God who allowed Himself to suffer years of imprisonment and torture, so that mankind may be free. Who could write a volume similar to the size of a Bible in a couple of hours, and while writing hold a conversation with someone concerning some totally different subject, who knew a persons thoughts and would answer them before the thought was finnished, no no my friend Baha’u’llah is no ordinary man, He is the Son of Man, the one Christ spoke about as the Spirit of Truth who would come.

Peace and love to you

 

[PRmerger]

Dear friend

For thousands of years the church has been trying to convince the Jews about Jesus, they have their book as well, and their literal expectations were not met.
To reject someone who speaks with the authority of God, who completes so many prophecies for you to dismiss as any false prophet can make a claim, your words. I would feel that a person would be studying and making very very sure of their stand, because as has been shown in the past many a proud religious following has been found wanting.

I have done this study, and I assure you, the many false prophets I have seen come and go are of no comparison to Baha’u’llah, and the Ocean of His words and Truth. A Messenger of God who allowed Himself to suffer years of imprisonment and torture, so that mankind may be free. Who could write a volume similar to the size of a Bible in a couple of hours, and while writing hold a conversation with someone concerning some totally different subject, who knew a persons thoughts and would answer them before the thought was finnished, no no my friend Baha’u’llah is no ordinary man, He is the Son of Man, the one Christ spoke about as the Spirit of Truth who would come.

Peace and love to you

How would you identify a false prophet, then, happyme?

What criteria do you use?

 

[pablope]

Dear pablope Yes the quote is from the Gospel of John, with Jesus explaining how He had more to tell the Apostles but that they would not be able to bear it at that time.

Now two of your friends have said this was fulfilled by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Now Pentecost was 50 days after the resurrection of Christ, was it not?
I am surprised I would have to explain this.

Okay…I get it, or have some understanding of it. I would alos suggest that you provide chapter to make it easier to locate passages.

What Jesus meant…was they the Apostles would not understand all of what Jesus told them…until the HS came at pentecost.

Pentecost occured 9 days after the ascension.

From JOhn 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

And John 16 from v6 should answer your question:

6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

I can’t believe the explanation that I have been given, as Jesus said he had much to tell, He even explained that the Spirit of Truth would not only explain these things but would even show things to come.

Can you provide the passage where it says “but would even show things to come.”

We need to see that in context. I think you are taking it to mean prediction of the future. For the Apostles, it could have meant their fate…or what they were going to face after the ascension.

And yet I have been given no new teachings, or had explained the future things that would be shown, so for me your teaching that the Holy Spirit fulfilled this at Pentecost is not true.

Everything that needs to be revealed by God has been revealed in Christ. There are no new teachings but a growth in the understanding and a growth in faith. I think you are misinterpretating something.

As for Pentecost…see what happened to the Apostles after pentecost…from Acts 2:

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,** 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?**

 

[pablope]

Dear friend

If as you say not all of God’s Word can be contained on papyrus how are you so sure that what Christ spoke about happened at Pentecost?

 

[happyme]

Again, happyme’s question is predicated on a false assumption.

I would like to know where she arrived at this unsupported claim: Everything revealed must be written down.

It certainly is not a Catholic paradigm.

Perhaps it is a Baha’i paradigm? I really wouldn’t know.

What false assumption is that?

So you can’t refer to Christs words for many of your ideas, or should I say make your own interpretations for that is where straying from the written Word of the messenger of God leads.

And yes unless as a Baha’i we can find where Baha’u’llah has Written some law or other, then it is not scripture, only the Words of the Messenger of God are binding. Otherwise you make up whatever you wish as you go along.
You ask the Baha’is for proof, but refuse to offer proof in return, you fall back on tradition, a very insecure foundation.

 

[happyme]

Is there a reason to doubt Christ?

 

[PRmerger]

What false assumption is that?

The idea that all of God’s revelation had to be written down.

Where did you get that idea? Whose command is that?

 

[PRmerger]

What false assumption is that?

So you can’t refer to Christs words for many of your ideas, or should I say make your own interpretations for that is where straying from the written Word of the messenger of God leads.

Oh, we don’t refer to ONLY Christ’s words, but we do refer only to the Word of God.

Big difference, happyme. Huge difference.

Jesus is the Word of God.

And the Words of God are transmitted through 2 channels: Sacred Tradition and Sacred Tradition.

 

[PRmerger]

And yes unless as a Baha’i we can find where Baha’u’llah has Written some law or other, then it is not scripture, only the Words of the Messenger of God are binding.

Excellent. Then where does your prophet say that all of God’s revelation had to be written down?

 

[happyme]

Okay…I get it, or have some understanding of it. I would alos suggest that you provide chapter to make it easier to locate passages.

What Jesus meant…was they the Apostles would not understand all of what Jesus told them…until the HS came at pentecost.

Pentecost occured 9 days after the ascension.

From JOhn 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

And John 16 from v6 should answer your question:

6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Can you provide the passage where it says “but would even show things to come.”

We need to see that in context. I think you are taking it to mean prediction of the future. For the Apostles, it could have meant their fate…or what they were going to face after the ascension.

Everything that needs to be revealed by God has been revealed in Christ. There are no new teachings but a growth in the understanding and a growth in faith. I think you are misinterpretating something.

As for Pentecost…see what happened to the Apostles after pentecost…from Acts 2:

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,** 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?**

Dear friend I have given over and over chapter and verses of the quote from John, I will give it again as you appear not to read the posts…

16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
King James Bible : John

You say:- What Jesus meant…was they the Apostles would not understand all of what Jesus told them…until the HS came at pentecost.

So now you can speak for Christ, sorry I do not accept that.

You say:- Pentecost occured 9 days after the ascension. Ok so the Catholic church is incorrect in their encyclopedia that clearly states 50 days. Hmmmm

As you can see you are misquoting me, I have given the quote above again, chapter 16

Sorry but I feel that you do not interpret correctly, but od course your interpretation agrees with your conclusion.

You ask:- Can you provide the passage where it says “but would even show things to come.” John 16.13

Your explanation of the speaking in tongues of the Apostles does not clear the problem of Christ saying:- 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
If the Apostles had been told of the many things Jesus considered they would not bear at the time He was with them, I am sure they would have recorded such an event. Although your friend appears to think that is not important, I feel it is of great importance.

Peace and love to you.

 

[happyme]

Excellent. Then where does your prophet say that all of God’s revelation had to be written down?

You are trying to misquote me again, I never said all of God’s revelation has to be written down.
But certainly all of Jesus message should be written down, of course the sad fact is that most of what has been collected was written years later and not always by the supposed author, many times it is “according to”.

Now what I did say is that only what the Messenger of God wrote or said is scripture, when someone else writes years later according to this or that Apostle, mistakes can and do happen.

Now to your comment about all of God’s revelation has to be written down, well His revelation never ends so as new messengers come in the future more and more knowledge will be revealed.
If you think that you have all the knowledge of God at this time, let me just say, God’s knowledge and His guidance is endless, you would not live long enough to read or digest it all my friend. You are trying to limit the vastness of God my friend.

Peace and love to you.

 

[PRmerger]

You are trying to misquote me again,

Again? Have I tried to do this before? I think you may be getting confused.

I never said all of God’s revelation has to be written down.

Excellent. So I assume your prophet never said such a thing…

But certainly all of Jesus message should be written down, of course the sad fact is that most of what has been collected was written years later and not always by the supposed author, many times it is "according to

"

Is there something from Jesus’ words that say that “all of Jesus message should be written down”?

 

[happyme]

Oh, we don’t refer to ONLY Christ’s words, but we do refer only to the Word of God.

Big difference, happyme. Huge difference.

Jesus is the Word of God.

And the Words of God are transmitted through 2 channels: Sacred Tradition and Sacred Tradition.

So where else does God’s Word come from, only through Jesus? right so your comment is rather amusing.

Of course I see Christ and Baha’u’llah as one and the same.
Even though they were different individuals.
So Christ being the Word of God is also the same with Baha’u’llah.

And the Word of God is transmitted through one channel The Son of Man.

I leave sacred tradition to you my friend, I am sure the Jews will also be amused as they stick to their sacred tradition also.

Peace and love to you

 

[PRmerger]

So where else does God’s Word come from, only through Jesus?

Through Jesus via the Church. The Catholic Church.

And, again, where does Jesus say that all of His words must be written down?

(Answer: nowhere.)

You have been proclaiming some sort of unsubstantiated assertion that Jesus’ words had to be written down.

No commandment exists for this, save in the minds of some people.

 

[PRmerger]

Now what I did say is that only what the Messenger of God wrote or said is scripture, when someone else writes years later according to this or that Apostle, mistakes can and do happen.

Then each and every time you quote from our Bible, and say, “Didn’t Jesus say ?”
you’re going to have to give this proviso, “But I don’t really know if Jesus really said this as a Baha’i because I believe that mistakes can and do happen.”

So when you are quoting Jesus as saying, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now” are we to understand that you as a Baha’i don’t really know if He said this or not?

If so, then please do not quote Him, because we’re just going to come back at you with this: But, happyme, you don’t even know if Jesus said this!

Do you see what sort of ludicrous position you have backed yourself into?