BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[PRmerger]

Dear friend and friends, I have heard this said before regarding the words of Christ here:-
16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
King James Bible : John

You say this knowledge came at Pentecost, that it was the Spirit of Truth and that all truth was revealed to the Apostles who then handed it down to their successors.
If this is so, would you please tell us of this new knowledge, that apparently the people of Christs time could not bear?
And what things were revealed that were to come?

I have never been told any of these things, I would be most interested?

The first thing which comes to mind is the Trinity. The second is the canon of the New Testament. The third is the hypostatic union.

 

[pablope]

Hi pablope, I am trying to understand what you are asking.

I am assuming you are asking if Bahaullah submitted His Revelation to the Pope (who has apostolic authority) so that it can be validated for its authenticity?

 

[pablope]

The second coming, the true second coming of Christ…would be a noisy affair…not a secret affair…as what the Bible tells us.

. We refer to this process as “progressive revelation”

Again…as I asked…validate this claim the name of the apostolic authority who said this is indeed from God.
from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

[daler]

. The Jews also believed that the coming of the Messiah would be a noisy affair, with Him coming, riding on a horse, and conquering the Romans, preceded by Elijah gliding down from heaven.

Indeed, as Jesus Himself said,

. “So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.”

. We who testify of Him are plainly saying that He has already come and found you sleeping, that the hour of His coming has occurred, even as He came amongst the Jews and found them sleeping. Then look what happened to the Jews!!! We pray that it does not “continue” happening to the Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc.

. “Taste ye what your hands have wrought!” Thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

. In this scenario, as has been the same throughout history, God’s Messenger comes, a few recognize Him. Others scoff and carry themselves proudly before God, saying this, and saying that. Has this not been the case ever since Adam?

. “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.”

. We who have recognized Baha’u’llah are even as the “early” Christians who recognized Jesus as the Messiah. We are those of whom He spoke the following words:

. “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

 

[daler]

Again…as I asked…validate this claim the name of the apostolic authority who said this is indeed from God.
from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

[daler]

Again…as I asked…validate this claim the name of the apostolic authority who said this is indeed from God.

 

[pablope]

11169060:

Pablo,
.
. ** We refer to this process as “progressive revelation”**

You know…I just recalled something…this is no different than the Mormon doctrine or dogma or whatever the mormons call it…continuing revelation…

 

[pablope]

[Q0062]

If nobody knows the hour and day…then how can you tell He indeed has come?

. In this scenario, as has been the same throughout history, God’s Messenger comes, a few recognize Him. Others scoff and carry themselves proudly before God, saying this, and saying that.

Wait a minute…is Bahaullah god himself or just a messenger of God?

or for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

So…how does all what you posted answer the questions I asked of you…?

 

[pablope]

;11170062]

Pablo,
If I may ask you to re-read my post #123 about the Ten Virgins, and the coming of the Lord as a Thief in the Night.

 

[daler]

[Q0062]

Pablo,
. My answer to your first question would be: “My sheep know My voice”
. for me, the greatest proofs are the Words of Baha’u’llah, even as the greatest proof for me of Jesus are His words.
. Next to that would be in the realm of prophecies, hundreds of them, all fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

. Understand that when God speaks, He (God) is speaking, through His Mouthpiece.
You might liken this to someone with a microphone, talking, and there are speakers in the room, but in different ages. There’s an old Motorola, whom we shall call Moses. There is a Philco (Ford), which is Jesus. Here is a Sony, or a Panasonic speaker. I use this as a metaphorical representation, of course, to illustrate a point.
. When someone destroyed a speaker, such as beheading John the Baptist, or crucifying Christ, God was not touched. Nor was the true reality of Jesus touched, but only His mortal frame. Whether you can accept the analogy or not, you can understand it, right?
. So there are times when the Voice of God is direct, and may say, through His Mouthpiece, or Speaker, “Verily, I am God”. Now we are referring to God’s Voice, and God is not this cabinet “speaker”, so to speak.
. But the Person of the Manifestation of God may also commune with God, as in the Lord’s prayer, or on the cross. This is the Baha’i belief, that this human Soul, the physical person, is not actually God, but rather in His Presence, we are in God’s Presence. Do you follow?

. “Think ye, O people, that I hold within My grasp the control of God’s ultimate Will and Purpose?… Had the ultimate destiny of God’s Faith been in Mine hands, I would have never consented, even though for one moment, to manifest Myself unto you, nor would I have allowed one word to fall from My lips. Of this God Himself is, verily, a witness.”

. “I am the royal Falcon on the arm of the Almighty. I unfold the drooping wings of every broken bird and start it on its flight. … This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list….”

Baha’u’llah

 

[pablope]

pablope;11170062:

The Apostles are “those who recognize” the Lord. What apostolic authority was greater than they who were living in the days of their Lord, who testified with their very lives that He is the Lord?
. We “are” those Apostles, if ye would receive it, and like those gone before us, some of us are being killed, such as the cousin of Servant, Mr. Rezvani, shot in the back of the head only a week and a half ago.
. Saul witnessed the stoning of Stephen. You are witnessing the shooting of Rezvani. He is one of those who said to those around him:

This is how authority is transferred…per the Bible:

From the OT:

18 So the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit of leadership,[a] and lay your hand on him. 1…22 Moses did as the Lord commanded him. He took Joshua and had him stand before Eleazar the priest and the whole assembly. 23 Then he laid his hands on him and commissioned him, as the Lord instructed through Moses.

the NT:

Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

Now you see…even Paul had to undergo the laying of hands…to have authority to teach.

And he further instructs in his epistles:

In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus: “For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee.”

2 Tim 1:6

“I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”

c. 1 Tim 4:14
“Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.”

So here is my question…who with apostolic authority laid hands or ordained you?

How do you follow the example of Paul in Acts 13?

 

[daler]

So…how can I know whether these words are actually God ordained or inspired? You keep dodging the question I asked…

Pablo,
. I am not intending to dodge any questions. We have inherent within us the capacity to know and recognize God’s voice. If we lacked that capacity, how could we be judged by Him for our failure to recognize.
. Yet this often takes time, as it did for Saul to finally become Paul. It is different for each one of us, but for me, after hearing of the Baha’i Faith about five times in ten years, I finally sat down and studied the Writings of Baha’u’llah and read books about how His coming fulfilled numerous prophecies. No one else could do this for me. I had to be ready, even as Paul had to be ready.

. As I read the passages from the Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah, they resonate inside my soul as coming from God, in the same way the Words of Jesus, the Lord’s Prayer, the Beatitudes resonate in my soul. I know they are from God.

. If you wish, here is a link to the Hidden Words:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/HW/

 

[daler]

So here is my question…who with apostolic authority laid hands or ordained you?

How do you follow the example of Paul in Acts 13?

There are no clergy or priests in the Baha’i Faith. No one is ordained. When all receive education and can read the words of God for themselves, they stand in no need of priests, mullahs, or rabbis any longer.

Baha’is are faithful to a Covenant, and the Center of the Covenant was Abdul Baha, to whom all Baha’is turned after the ascension of Baha’u’llah. He was His eldest Son, the Branch,

The longest Bible prophecy about the Branch is in the 11th chapter of Isaiah:

“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. … righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard … with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. … They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. … And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” -Isaiah 11:1-12

. I must get some rest. Thank you for your courtesy. God bless, daler

 

[Jcc1960]

Not at all. What we believe has been held since the Church began and has been very well defined. We don’t twist anything. We believe what Christ demonstrated. That a glorified body can eat food and simultaneously walk through solid objects; a body unknown in the natural world. Maybe if you would take the time to actually find out what the Church believes and when it believed it and why it believes it you would have greater insight as to why we reject, completely, the false prophet Baha’u’llah.

If the glorified body is unknown to the natural world, then it should not be associated with the natural world. That doesn’t mean Christ’s appearance to the Apostles wasn’t real, it was very real, but it was not part of the natural world.

N
The Baha’i would have us believe that something termed a “mystery” means that it is anyone’s guess as to the truth of that mystery. Christ gave the Church his own authority to discern truth. So while we may not be able to humanly grasp the entirety of a mystery we can, nevertheless, believe it because it was given to us by Christ and the Apostles. For instance, we don’t have to grasp the mystery of the Eucharist in order to believe that it is the real presence of Christ; body, blood, soul and divinity, which we consume. And we don’t have to fully grasp the nature of a glorified body in order to believe that we will have one.

These are truths given to us by Christ himself and preserved through the centuries by his Church in which he remains and to which he gave the Holy Spirit to lead it into all truth.

Mystery is always at the heart of every religion. That is why faith is required. The reality is that God and His creation are bigger than we are and we are not capable of understanding everything. No, it is not “anyone’s guess” as to what they mean.

I do not dispute that the Church has authority to interpret Christ’s teachings and His reality, and that interpretation serves the Church and her faithful, but a mystery is a mystery by its nature. Explanations have their limits, and never fully capture the reality.

Yes, Christ gave us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is also present in Baha’u’llah, and rejecting the Holy Spirit dishonors God.

 

[PRmerger]

If the glorified body is unknown to the natural world, then it should not be associated with the natural world.

Your conclusion is a nonsequitur, Jcc.

That doesn’t mean Christ’s appearance to the Apostles wasn’t real, it was very real, but it was not part of the natural world

Or it was part of the natural world, as well as part of the supernatural world.

Mystery is always at the heart of every religion. That is why faith is required. The reality is that God and His creation are bigger than we are and we are not capable of understanding everything. No, it is not “anyone’s guess” as to what they mean.

Amen!

I do not dispute that the Church has authority to interpret Christ’s teachings and His reality, and that interpretation serves the Church and her faithful, but a mystery is a mystery by its nature. Explanations have their limits, and never fully capture the reality.

You are correct.

Yes, Christ gave us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is also present in Baha’u’llah, and rejecting the Holy Spirit dishonors God.

And accepting false idols dishonors God.

 

[happyme]

The first thing which comes to mind is the Trinity. The second is the canon of the New Testament. The third is the hypostatic union.

I find your answer here interesting.
And of course you answered to my post to this quote.

Quote:Bballer32 You just helped our argument. The Spirit of Truth did come. That was at Pentecost, which as you can see happened after this was said. The Spirit of Truth came and revealed all truth to the Apostles who in turn handed them down to their successors. End quote.

Now PRmerger if what you say is true, that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit speaking to the Apostles 50 days after the rising of Christ, why may I ask is this knowledge not written in any of the Apostles Gospels? I am sure that such a happening would have created quite some excitement among the Apostles, so why is there no mention?

Also if I may re quote Christs words again…
16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
King James Bible : John

As you see Christ speaks of the many things he has to tell that the people and Apostles could not bear at that time, my question is why would the Apostles be told only 50 days after His rising from the dead? And really your answers of what that knowledge is is hardly (I believe) what Christ was saying. The Christian canon of the New Testament, is hardly new knowledge, that could not be accepted at that time.

And what of the shewing of things to come?

I am truly puzzled by this.

 

[PRmerger]

Now PRmerger if what you say is true, that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit speaking to the Apostles 50 days after the rising of Christ, why may I ask is this knowledge not written in any of the Apostles Gospels? I am sure that such a happening would have created quite some excitement among the Apostles, so why is there no mention?.

I would like to know, happyme, why you think that everything that has been revealed must be written down. Who decreed this commandment?

 

[Servant19]

I would like to know, happyme, why you think that everything that has been revealed must be written down. Who decreed this commandment?

Either way PR, I think happyme makes a valid point in questioning why Jesus would not reveal the “things they could not bear” when they were talking face to face, but would see the apostles as being able to bear “all truth” 50 days after He ascended.

What changed in 50 days that enabled the apostles to “bear” all truth so suddenly?

 

[Servant19]

Your conclusion is a nonsequitur, Jcc.

Or it was part of the natural world, as well as part of the supernatural world.

JCC’s comment may well be a non sequitur, however to say that something is part of the natural world as well as the supernatural world begs questions, serious theological questions.

I’m surprised that you of all people PR would be happy to accept such a theological anomaly.

 

[daler]

JCC’s comment may well be a non sequitur, however to say that something is part of the natural world as well as the supernatural world begs questions, serious theological questions.

I’m surprised that you of all people PR would be happy to accept such a theological anomaly.

NOTE:

If Jesus were able to physically travel into a room and exit the room, “not using the door”, why would it have been necessary for the stone to have been rolled away from the tomb His body had been laid to rest in?

To say that this or that is a “mystery” (the word meaning shrouded as by a myst), simply means “I don’t know”.

Then, people start to fill in the blanks, speaking of magic, telling and compelling others stories of the mystical interpretations of the “mystery”.

It is the “compelling” part that is offensive. They say, “Believe, or you shall be chastised and condemned to hell.” Or, “We shall cast you out from among us unless you submit to our interpretation of the mystery.” Or “If you dare commit the high treason of “reason”, you shall be burned at the stake in our inquisitions!”

This, unfortunately, is the history of the Church…