BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[doormouse73]

Stylter,
. There are parallels between the religions of the Jews, Christians, and Islam. Abraham destroyed the idols which His own father made and sold. Jesus trashed the money tables in the Temple, saying 'Not in My Father’s House" Muhammad went to the Ka’aba and destroyed the idols.
. There is a recurrence, or descent, into idolatry, which appears in human history. Manasseh returned to idolatry, even has his own grandfather, the prophet Isaiah, sawn in half!! Thus, the Prophets must deal again and again with the rebellious nature of man, like Moses coming down the mountain and the episode of the golden calf.

. With this in mind, my sense is that Muhammad was viewing the multiplication of God into three Gods as a departure from what God intended. “They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three…” His emphasis was always solely on the One God of Abraham and getting the warring idolatrous polytheistic tribes of Arabia to return to the religion of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.

Muhammad went to the Ka’aba and destroyed the idols

no, he kept the black rock…

the kabba is a place of market/money he kept that aswell.

he also spoke of satanic verses to woe people into believing in his way of thinking… just like you are doing the same with all this redefining words and action in the Gospels…

what you say about this prophet of yours there has been thousands of other people who have suffered the same fate as your man.but they don’t say that they were the next Jesus Christ…

 

[daler]

You come to a Catholic forum and directly challenge the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith and then complain when we tell you that the meaning of the words of Scripture have been twisted to fit the Baha’i paradigm. Please. On the contrary, we have been more than charitable to those who would have us deny our faith in Jesus Christ and place our allegiance with an impostor claiming to be His second coming.

When a Christian comes to you, whether known to you or not, and says: Steve: “He has come”. There is automatically a divide, even as there was a division when a Jew came to another Jew, whether known to him or not, and said, “The Messiah has come.”

. Now those who cling to only those who hold the reins of authority, yielding to their positions, place themselves in the hands of others besides God. Was this not true of the Jews who continued to follow the Pharisees who, citing scripture upon scripture, “proved” that Jesus was not the Christ? In the end, who was right?

. Baha’u’llah, while imprisoned in Akka, wrote to Pope Pius IX, telling him who He was. Within two years the Pope lost the Papal states after rejecting the claim of Baha’u’llah. The defeat of Napoleon III also followed receipt of letters from Baha’u’llah, from His prison cell. The same happened to the Czar, Sultan, the Kaiser, the Shah, etc,

This is history. You can do an independent read from your own Catholic Encyclopedia

newadvent.org/cathen/12134b.htm

 

[pablope]

Because it was revealed by God to Peter.

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Also, are you saying that Jesus’ revelation needed to be validated to be classified as authentically from God?

Jesus is God.

The Revelation of Bahaullah needs no validation from mortal men

But then, with this assertion, you are going against the example of St. Paul in Gal 2:2. The revelation to Paul was to submit his gospel…for assurance it is from God.

So…how does the Bahai meet this example…that a revelation, to be true and from God…which will not contradict what has been revealed before…that the revelation, to be true…will direct the receiver of the revelation…to submit to an authority for validation…and which lines up with 1john4…from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

[daler]

Even though the prophecy from Daniel said 2,300, we need to realize that the vision came from God. This is significant because of 2 Peter 3:8:

This could mean that this prophecy means eternity. It could mean one day. It could mean anything God wanted it to be, but it’s not what you said it was.

Bballer,
. This gets into another very, very interesting prophecy from revelation, regarding the 1260 years. One must set aside all prejudice to even consider it, but since the year 1260 AH is in fact the year 1844 AD, which is 2300 years after Artaxerxes issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC, the nature of the religion comes into play, not only from Jewish and Christian prophecy, but Muslim, as well, for they also speak of a day of a thousand years.

. Following the death of the Prophet Muhammad, in 632 AD, there were a succession of th 12 Imams who were guides until the year 260 AH. Then there was silence for the next 1000 years, when it was said that the Qaim will arise, in the year 1260 AH, or 1844 AD, thus fulfilling both Old and New Testament time prophecies, as well as Muslim.

. This gets into the Beast, etc, which is about the Ummayyads who usurped power from Ali, who had been appointed Successor to Muhammad, and this division ultimately became the modern day Sunni and Shiite split. The woman with the 12 stars on her head are about these 12 Imams who followed Muhammad for 260 years. Then, after the lapse of 1000 years, the Bab appeared, as “the man-child”, who was devoured by the dragon.

. The Bab was publicly executed in Tabriz in 1850 by a firing squad of 750 Muslim soldiers.

. God’s promise to Abraham that He will make a great nation through Ishmael refers to Islam. This, then, figures into the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation regarding the year 1260 (AH)

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.
—Genesis 17:20

 

[pablope]

pablope - This is actually not a true statement - Most of these numbers were first brought up by early Christians waiting for the return of Christ in the early 1800’s. There were many people predicting the time and a lot of them came up with the mid 1800’s. Seven Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses etc are where these numbers actually started. This same 1260 is part of Koran Scripture as well.

Based on their own interpretation…and you have a separate interpretation…that is why I asked…which is correct?

Who is correct? Well that is up to each person to search and decide upon, but all are at least obligated to search.

 

[pablope]

pablope;11166744:

There is a misunderstanding here. The Bab and Baha’u’llah both submitted to the authority of the government, which tortured and killed the Bab, tortured, imprisoned, and exiled Baha’u’llah for 40 years as He was banished from land to land, finally imprisoned in Akka in Palestine.

What I was referring to is that His being Who He is is not dependent upon the determination of any religious authority, apostolic or otherwise, even as Jesus being Who He is was not dependent upon Jewish authority to recognize Him. Indeed, religious divines have Always rejected the coming of God’s Prophets, in every age, every time.

You are misunderstanding…the authority I am talking about is apostolic authority…authority from God…from which to submit one’s teaching or claim for validation…similar to the example of St. Paul:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Now look at Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
Look at verse 3 and see what the Antioch Church elders do…“they placed their hands on them and sent them off.”

Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

So…how does the Bahai claim meet the standard set by the three passages above?

Who sent BahuallaH? Who did he submit his teaching to? Who ordained him?

 

[doormouse73]

When a Christian comes to you, whether known to you or not, and says: Steve: “He has come”. There is automatically a divide, even as there was a division when a Jew came to another Jew, whether known to him or not, and said, “The Messiah has come.”

Within two years the Pope lost the Papal states after rejecting the claim of Baha’u’llah

show me proof of this claim … or are you insinuating that it was an act of God?

why would God do this then elect another pope,when he could have freed Baha’u’llah like God did to some of the Apostles … and made him pope…

i think you have to much time on your hands… with respect this is definitely my last post…

 

[daler]

daler;11168186:

You are misunderstanding…the authority I am talking about is apostolic authority…authority from God…from which to submit one’s teaching or claim for validation…similar to the example of St. Paul:

So…how does the Bahai claim meet the standard set by the three passages above?

Who sent BahuallaH? Who did he submit his teaching to? Who ordained him?

Pablo,
. If I am understanding what you have written here, you are referring to Paul submitting to the authority of Peter. Is this correct? Jesus had no need to submit to anyone’s authority, although He did go to John to be baptized in order to fulfill prophecy, even though John said “It is I who have need to be baptized of you.”

. As to Baha’u’llah:

. “I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely.”

 

[daler]

show me proof of this claim … or are you insinuating that it was an act of God?

why would God do this then elect another pope,when he could have freed Baha’u’llah like God did to some of the Apostles … and made him pope…

i think you have to much time on your hands… with respect this is definitely my last post…

This link, in addition to the one previously referenced, should suffice:

fxmartinez.net/?p=185

 

[Lochias]

This link, in addition to the one previously referenced, should suffice:

fxmartinez.net/?p=185

Not buyin’ it, not one red cent. The leader of the Baha’i has as much authority as my little toe, as evidenced by the fact that we still have Popes. Too bad, so sad.

 

[pablope]

Pablo,
. If I am understanding what you have written here, you are referring to Paul submitting to the authority of Peter. Is this correct? Jesus had no need to submit to anyone’s authority, although He did go to John to be baptized in order to fulfill prophecy, even though John said “It is I who have need to be baptized of you.”

."

That is right…and any new claim, any new revelation…with God being consistent…would not deviate from the pattern of Paul.

As I pointed out…from Gal 2:2…the revelation to Paul was to go to Jerusalem…and submit his gospel to the apostles…not to go out on his own and make his own claims and teach on his own.

For before he goes on his first missionary journey…in Acts 13, he is ordained.

Jesus did not submit to any authority…for He is God…be he did give authority to Peter:

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,** and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.”

And in John…Jesus tells peter to feed my sheep, tend my sheep.

So any claim would not deviate from that told in the Bible…but would follow the same principle and pattern…that is why I asked…how does the Bahai and its claims follow the pattern laid out in the example of Paul, of Peter?**

 

[pablope]

Yes that’s exactly my point Steve

Baha’u’llah has stated very clearly, that this knowledge (that He is the Return of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God) has come from the Father.

In fact, Bahaullah has come in the Glory of the Father. This sounds pretty infallible too.

Paul claimed the same thing…but later on, the revelation to Paul in Gal 2:2 was to submit to the apostles in Jerusalem.

But…following the pattern of Paul…who with apostolic authority, can validate this claim?

How does this claim meet this passage from 1john4:

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

[Servant19]

Hi pablope, I am trying to understand what you are asking.

I am assuming you are asking if Bahaullah submitted His Revelation to the Pope (who has apostolic authority) so that it can be validated for its authenticity?

Some points to share:

1. Baha’u’llah is God. The Papacy has been overthrown by the Father ever since He introduced Muhammad into the world, and even more so since He revealed Himself through Baha’u’llah.
2. If what you are saying is valid, you are basically asking Jesus to submit His Revelation for validation to the pharisees…NO!! You ask God to do such things at your peril! Heaven forbid. You have misunderstood the test for falsehood.
3. Baha’u’llah guided and the Father revealed His station to many many “Peters” of the Bahai Dispensation. There is one “Rock” of the Bahai Dispensation and that was Abdu’l-Baha, who upon being shown by the Father who He was, would no longer treat his father as a father, but rather as if He was God. Abdul-Baha would BOW at his Fathers feet when in His presence

 

[daler]

1. Baha’u’llah is God. The Papacy has been overthrown by the Father ever since He introduced Muhammad into the world, and even more so since He revealed Himself through Baha’u’llah.

. What I think Servant meant to say was that to be in the Presence of Baha’u’llah was to be in the Presence of God, just like to be in the Presence of Jesus was to be in the Presence of God, for wherever either of Them are, there is God.

. “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God”, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world…”

. And, regarding His own relationship to God, He testifies:

. “When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”

. Thus, there is a dual perspective held by the Manifestation of God, as the human vehicle of Revelation, a Pen in God’s own Hand, as it were, “I and My Father are One.”

and as the humble servant Who Himself turns to God, “My Father is greater than I.”

 

[daler]

So any claim would not deviate from that told in the Bible…but would follow the same principle and pattern…that is why I asked…how does the Bahai and its claims follow the pattern laid out in the example of Paul, of Peter?

 

[SteveVH]

We refer to this process as “progressive revelation”

Which philosophy denies the very nature of Jesus Christ as God’s only Word. Jesus isn’t a stepping stone on the road of progress. He is the pinnacle at the mountain top; the destiny of mankind. Every knee will bow and every tongue will proclaim that Jesus is Lord. It has happened. He has come and he is risen. Believe it while there is still time.

 

[PRmerger]

How can you be sure that Jesus is the Messiah?

How can you be sure that He is the Lord of Salvation?

Because He said so right?

Actually, it’s because He rose from the dead. And because He paid for my sins.

No other “manifestation” of God has ever done this.

Your prophets have said some very nice, wise things, but they haven’t even come close to being a manifestation of God.

It is like the difference between the Eucharist and a nice piece of bread.

 

[SteveVH]

It is like the difference between the Eucharist and a nice piece of bread.

That is the perfect analogy.

 

[PRmerger]

That is the perfect analogy.

:curtsey::curtsey:

 

[happyme]

You just helped our argument. The Spirit of Truth did come. That was at Pentecost, which as you can see happened after this was said. The Spirit of Truth came and revealed all truth to the Apostles who in turn handed them down to their successors.

Dear friend and friends, I have heard this said before regarding the words of Christ here:-
16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
King James Bible : John

You say this knowledge came at Pentecost, that it was the Spirit of Truth and that all truth was revealed to the Apostles who then handed it down to their successors.
If this is so, would you please tell us of this new knowledge, that apparently the people of Christs time could not bear?
And what things were revealed that were to come?

I have never been told any of these things, I would be most interested?