BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[pablope]

Pablo,

. I am not intending to dodge any questions.

 

[daler]

I would like to know, happyme, why you think that everything that has been revealed must be written down. Who decreed this commandment?

This would seem to be a diversion, if not an evasion from answering the question. It is a breach of logic to draw one’s attention away from the validity of the point being made, one of the classical fallacies of logic. You might wish to address the question rather than dodge it.

 

[pablope]

There are no clergy or priests in the Baha’i Faith. No one is ordained. When all receive education and can read the words of God for themselves, they stand in no need of priests, mullahs, or rabbis any longer.

Then what you are saying is contrary to the Bible and to what God had done before.

The Jews had priests…the CC has priests…there is a continuation from the OT to the NT.

It looks like what you have is a discontinuation. I can only conclude then that you have a different God than the God of Abraham, David…and the God of Christianity.

The longest Bible prophecy about the Branch is in the 11th chapter of Isaiah:

 

[pablope]

I find your answer here interesting.
And of course you answered to my post to this quote.

Now PRmerger if what you say is true, that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit speaking to the Apostles 50 days after the rising of Christ, why may I ask is this knowledge not written in any of the Apostles Gospels? I am sure that such a happening would have created quite some excitement among the Apostles, so why is there no mention?

Also if I may re quote Christs words again…
16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
King James Bible : John

As you see Christ speaks of the many things he has to tell that the people and Apostles could not bear at that time, my question is why would the Apostles be told only 50 days after His rising from the dead? And really your answers of what that knowledge is is hardly (I believe) what Christ was saying. The Christian canon of the New Testament, is hardly new knowledge, that could not be accepted at that time.

And what of the shewing of things to come?

I am truly puzzled by this.

I think the quote you provided is from the Gospel of John. This is prior to the crucifixion…so can you explain further what you mean by 50 days after rising from the dead?

 

[daler]

Well…I have asked for the apostolic authority to validate your claim and claims…and so far, none has been offered.

 

[daler]

Then what you are saying is contrary to the Bible and to what God had done before.

 

[pablope]

1171271]

Pablo, Did Jesus require apostolic authority? No. He did not. On that point, the answer is settled. Referring to God, “He doeth what He willeth”

 

[daler]

The Jews had priests…the CC has priests…there is a continuation from the OT to the NT.

 

[daler]

No…But he established it together with His Church…and the vehicle by which we are to know the truth from falsehood.

 

[pablope]

No…the priesthood was for the offering of sacrifice to God…which the Jews did…and the CC does to this day…continuously…during the Mass…in every time zone in every parish around the world.

As is stated in Revelations:

8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

“‘Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord God Almighty,’**

who was, and is, and is to come.”

. Once we learn how to peddle the bicycle, the training wheels are not only unnecessary, but tend to get in the way and no longer serve a function.

**

But we still nourishment to continue and to grow in holiness.

.

. Once I have learned to read, I stand in no need of my former teachers.

This, my friend, is what is called…“pride”.

 

[daler]

But we still nourishment to continue and to grow in holiness.

This, my friend, is what is called…“pride”.

When we gain our nourishment by growing our own set of teeth, we no longer need mother’s milk. We needed mother at the time, but only until we gained the ability to “chew our own food.”

Once we have the means and the inclination to chew on the Word of God ourselves, we do not need others to chew on it for us. I am not afraid of my own teeth, whether physical or mental, to gain my own understanding. I have no need of priests anymore to chew spiritual food for me and then give it to me pre-digested, so to speak.

It is not a matter of pride, as you see it, but rather, growth and “progress”.

 

[PRmerger]

Either way PR, I think happyme makes a valid point in questioning why Jesus would not reveal the “things they could not bear” when they were talking face to face, but would see the apostles as being able to bear “all truth” 50 days after He ascended.

Well, her question is predicated on an unsupported assumption: that everything revealed had to be written down.

Where does she get this commandment from? Is there something from your prophets that say this? And, is there something from the Christian revelation that decrees this?

 

[PRmerger]

JCC’s comment may well be a non sequitur, however to say that something is part of the natural world as well as the supernatural world begs questions, serious theological questions.

I’m surprised that you of all people PR would be happy to accept such a theological anomaly.

That’s exactly what the Incarnation is–the natural and supernatural juxtaposed, Servant. How peculiar that you would find this a “theological anomaly.”

Were you under the misapprehension that the Incarnation was some other concept than the natural and supernatural being superimposed?

 

[PRmerger]

NOTE:

If Jesus were able to physically travel into a room and exit the room, “not using the door”, why would it have been necessary for the stone to have been rolled away from the tomb His body had been laid to rest in?

So are you saying that Jesus really did not enter/exit the room “not using the door” but actually opened and closed it?

IOW: which text in Scripture do you think is lying? The fact that the stone was rolled away, or the fact that Jesus walked through doors?

 

[PRmerger]

This would seem to be a diversion, if not an evasion from answering the question. It is a breach of logic to draw one’s attention away from the validity of the point being made, one of the classical fallacies of logic. You might wish to address the question rather than dodge it.

Again, happyme’s question is predicated on a false assumption.

I would like to know where she arrived at this unsupported claim: Everything revealed must be written down.

It certainly is not a Catholic paradigm.

Perhaps it is a Baha’i paradigm? I really wouldn’t know.

 

[happyme]

I would like to know, happyme, why you think that everything that has been revealed must be written down. Who decreed this commandment?

Dear friend

Why would it not be written down?

I note that Christians in general refuse to accept anything that is not written in the Bible.

Now you ask why should it be written down.

As I said before Jesus spoke about having many things to say to His followers also that things of the future would be told, from what you have given me, I can not believe that your story of the Pentecost fulfills these sayings of Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

Dear friend

Why would it not be written down?

Because all of God’s Word cannot be contained on papyrus.

I note that Christians in general refuse to accept anything that is not written in the Bible.

LOL!

Perhaps you are not aware that you are on a Catholic forum?

Were you thinking that you are on a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian forum?

 

[happyme]

I think the quote you provided is from the Gospel of John. This is prior to the crucifixion…so can you explain further what you mean by 50 days after rising from the dead?

Dear pablope Yes the quote is from the Gospel of John, with Jesus explaining how He had more to tell the Apostles but that they would not be able to bear it at that time.

Now two of your friends have said this was fulfilled by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Now Pentecost was 50 days after the resurrection of Christ, was it not?
I am surprised I would have to explain this.

I can’t believe the explanation that I have been given, as Jesus said he had much to tell, He even explained that the Spirit of Truth would not only explain these things but would even show things to come.

And yet I have been given no new teachings, or had explained the future things that would be shown, so for me your teaching that the Holy Spirit fulfilled this at Pentecost is not true.

 

[SteveVH]

I note that Christians in general refuse to accept anything that is not written in the Bible.

Have you ever heard of Sacred Tradition?

Those who broke away from the Catholic Church have no choice but to use the Bible as their sole source of faith and are left to their own devices as far as interpreting it. The result is thousands upon thousands of Christian denominations all disagreeing with each other.

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, possessed its faith before the New Testament was even written, much less canonized. Our faith is based in a Person, Jesus Christ, not a book or set of writings. Jesus gave this truth to the Apostles who were then anointed by the Holy Spirit who guided them into all truth. The Church has guarded this truth since the beginning.

The New Testament is only that part of Sacred Tradition committed to writing and does not contain everything given to the Apostles. If you want that you have to come to the Catholic Church who alone possesses the fullness of truth.

 

[PRmerger]

And yet I have been given no new teachings, or had explained the future things that would be shown, so for me your teaching that the Holy Spirit fulfilled this at Pentecost is not true.

Yes, there have been no new teachings. However, what Christ had “more to tell” was preserved in the Church, through Sacred Tradition.

To wit: the development of doctrine regarding the Trinity, and the hypostatic union, Catholic social and moral teaching…