BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[PRmerger]

How would you identify a false prophet, then, happyme?

What criteria do you use?

Could you please answer this, happyme?

Thanks.

 

[happyme]

Again? Have I tried to do this before? I think you may be getting confused.

Excellent. So I assume your prophet never said such a thing…

"

Is there something from Jesus’ words that say that “all of Jesus message should be written down”?

And why should it not be written down, after all it is for the guidance of the world, how are you to be guided if Christ has come and all you had recorded was He said love one another and nothing else.
Guidance is guidance my friend, this is how God, corrects and strives to awaken our spiritual awareness, and prepare us for our real life.

I feel you are being factitious my friend

Peace to you

 

[PRmerger]

And why should it not be written down,

For this very reason: it is not commanded.

It is a man-made assertion that you’ve been duped into believing.

Even your own holy prophets, I suppose, have not made this claim? Otherwise you would have provided some quotes from them.

You are going against your own religion and making something up.

 

[happyme]

Then each and every time you quote from our Bible, and say, “Didn’t Jesus say ?”
you’re going to have to give this proviso, “But I don’t really know if Jesus really said this as a Baha’i because I believe that mistakes can and do happen.”

So when you are quoting Jesus as saying, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now” are we to understand that you as a Baha’i don’t really know if He said this or not?

If so, then please do not quote Him, because we’re just going to come back at you with this: But, happyme, you don’t even know if Jesus said this!

Do you see what sort of ludicrous position you have backed yourself into?

No my friend, I do not feel I have backed into a corner at all.
You have been trying very hard to confuse me though I can see that.

No I accept that the bible contains sufficient truth to guide mankind, why because Baha’u’llah tells me so.

Now I have just tried to get you to look at the flimsy evidence you produce that the quote I gave from John is as you see it, whereas I see quite clearly it speaks of Baha’u’llah.

As you say I am getting a little tired I will rest and get back to you.
Peace to you

 

[SteveVH]

:So Christ being the Word of God is also the same with Baha’u’llah.

I’m just curious. Do you believe that this is some kind of “channeling” wherein in God possess a human body for a time and then comes back and possesses another?

We believe that Jesus is the incarnation of the eternal Son of God. There is only one and he has come, he is risen, he ascended and he will come again. But it will be Jesus and it will be the end of time and human history.

Do you not find it peculiar that the Son of God would return and die and never rise. Baha’u’llah is dead in the ground. What kind of a savior is that? He has not, apparently, defeated death. This is just one of the many reasons we know that Baha’u’llah is an impostor and therefore a false prophet.

 

[PRmerger]

No my friend, I do not feel I have backed into a corner at all.
You have been trying very hard to confuse me though I can see that.

If you are confused it is because you are being honest. You see that your positions have been thwarted with reason and logic…and that confuses you.

I think that if you think about what you have been espousing here, and honestly assess your arguments, you will see that you have been duped into believing a lot of illogical things.

The first one is that you say men can make mistakes and yet you trust what the Catholic Church has said about Jesus.

So it does appear that you do believe that, at least some of the time, the Catholic Church did not make any mistakes, when she told you: Jesus said A, B and C.

You see that men made these decisions about what to put in the Bible, and you trust that they did not err.

That is a good starting point for further discussion!

 

[pablope]

Then you are definitely confused. The spirit of truth is another reference for the Holy Spirit…which is to guide the Church to all truth.

You are confusing words and words and words.

As for these people you speak of, are you saying that they fulfilled all the prophecies of the Bible, regarding the second coming? Did they write volumes of sacred writings?
No I don’t think so the comparison is vast between them and Baha’u’llah, a quick study would prove this point.

Yes…the book of Mormon of Smith, White and the 7th day adventists, the JWs of Russell…all claimed to be from God…all established their own religions and cults…so the claim is not new.

So…which of all these competing claims is the truth and why?

As Christ rightly says He will not speak of Himself, He speaks as instructed by God, Baha’u’llah spoke often of Jesus and Glorified Him, He also brought a wealth of new Knowledge, and spoke of future events, many of which have come true there are only a few that are yet to happen. He also has brought God’s government to the earth, which is slowly growing throughout the world.

And so has a bunch of others…all claiming the same things as your Bahaullah.

 

[PRmerger]

Do you not find it peculiar that the Son of God would return and die and never rise. Baha’u’llah is dead in the ground. What kind of a savior is that? He has not, apparently, defeated death. This is just one of the many reasons we know that Baha’u’llah is an impostor and therefore a false prophet.

Do Baha’is even believe we need a savior?

 

[pablope]

Dear friend I have given over and over chapter and verses of the quote from John, I will give it again as you appear not to read the posts…

16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
King James Bible : John

Where have I misqouted you?

I do not interpret correctly? What makes you so sure your interpretation the correct one?

And does not your own interpretation, your forced interpretation, also agree with our own conclusion?

My interpretation is based on tradition and Tradition…there is a historical basis…that the phrase “and he will shew you things to come” meant what is to befall the apostles…the hardships they will have to face. Not predictions of the future.

Your explanation of the speaking in tongues of the Apostles does not clear the problem of Christ saying:- 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
If the Apostles had been told of the many things Jesus considered they would not bear at the time He was with them, I am sure they would have recorded such an event.

Although your friend appears to think that is not important, I feel it is of great importance.

Peace and love to you.

Ah…so you are making an assertion here…what is your basis for you being sure that they would have recorded it?

Where did Jesus give a command for any of the Apostles to record anything?

For starters…why don’t you answer this…"why was the Gospel of Mark written? Why did Mark write his gospel? What was the reason?

[/QUOTE]

 

[SteveVH]

Do Baha’is even believe we need a savior?

That’s a great point. On one hand they proclaim the Christian Scriptures as true, yet deny the very purpose that Christ came: to SAVE us.

 

[pablope]

;11172092:

As for these people you speak of, are you saying that they fulfilled all the prophecies of the Bible, regarding the second coming? Did they write volumes of sacred writings?
No I don’t think so the comparison is vast between them and Baha’u’llah, a quick study would prove this point.

Loving regards to you

You know…come to think of this…the true Savior and God never wrote anything…never commanded anything to be written.

Those who came belatedly with claims of their own…had to write something to prove themselves…Joseph Smith and the BOM, EGW and her Great Controversy…on and on and on…and Bahaullah and his volumes of writings…so I guess this kind of gives an indication…is it not…

So here is my question…Happy…is the true God determined by the volumes of writing He produces?

 

[cmodrmac]

The Omega point of an excuse my spelling Teilhard DeChardin is that similar to the evolution in man’s spiritual progression that your faith feels is the next step

How does your faith view such recent souls such as Gahndi and Mandela?

Your faith adds a lot of good to the world

 

[Jcc1960]

That’s exactly what the Incarnation is–the natural and supernatural juxtaposed, Servant. How peculiar that you would find this a “theological anomaly.”

Were you under the misapprehension that the Incarnation was some other concept than the natural and supernatural being superimposed?

I would agree that the Incarnation, as you put it, is a superposition of the natural and supernatural, or the physical (Christ’s human form) with the spiritual (His divine nature). I don’t see an anomaly there, that is how we see Baha’u’llah as well.

The anomaly comes when you imagine a body that is supposedly the same as a physical body, except that it isn’t, and it no longer has the properties of a physical body. If it no longer has the properties of a physical body, then the meaning of its being physical and natural is lost. Jesus was sacrificed on the cross, His body suffered wounds, bled and died. Before that His physical nature, appearing and being fully human gave meaning to His example for us to live our lives. If He had appeared as an angel it would have far less of an impact, because we can’t relate to being an angel.

The idea of a glorified body that no longer can suffer any harm is inconsistent with saying that it is a physical body, because the nature of physical things is that they change and are changed, they can be harmed and they can heal and grow. Even mineral, things like crystals and mountains can grow.

It is very true that the scriptures tell of defeating death. That is true of our spirit, which can live eternally, but a body that is physical but does not have the properties of being physical just doesn’t make any sense.

 

[daler]

I would agree that the Incarnation, as you put it, is a superposition of the natural and supernatural, or the physical (Christ’s human form) with the spiritual (His divine nature). I don’t see an anomaly there, that is how we see Baha’u’llah as well.

The anomaly comes when you imagine a body that is supposedly the same as a physical body, except that it isn’t, and it no longer has the properties of a physical body. If it no longer has the properties of a physical body, then the meaning of its being physical and natural is lost. Jesus was sacrificed on the cross, His body suffered wounds, bled and died. Before that His physical nature, appearing and being fully human gave meaning to His example for us to live our lives. If He had appeared as an angel it would have far less of an impact, because we can’t relate to being an angel.

The idea of a glorified body that no longer can suffer any harm is inconsistent with saying that it is a physical body, because the nature of physical things is that they change and are changed, they can be harmed and they can heal and grow. Even mineral, things like crystals and mountains can grow.

It is very true that the scriptures tell of defeating death. That is true of our spirit, which can live eternally, but a body that is physical but does not have the properties of being physical just doesn’t make any sense.

I agree totally!

I mean: Wow!!

Well said. Give that guy a Pulitzer Prize!!!

 

[daler]

The Omega point of an excuse my spelling Teilhard DeChardin is that similar to the evolution in man’s spiritual progression that your faith feels is the next step

How does your faith view such recent souls such as Gahndi and Mandela?

Your faith adds a lot of good to the world

Thank you for the breath of fresh air, my friend.

Such blessed souls as Ghandi and Mandela are lights shining in very dark nights, who breath the spirit of the age and then act upon it, sacrificing themselves utterly for others.

“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. …” Jesus

Because this news is fresh, it bears repeating. Also, because Mr Rezvani is a cousin of our friend Servant, I ask you all to read this and reflect upon his sacrifice. He does not have the face of a fanatic, but rather a noble and outstanding citizen of the world who refused to recant his beliefs in the face of threats. It is, my good friends, so easy for us to chat online with each other from the comfort of our easy chairs. Please forgive me if posting this for a second time offends anyone. It is very brief.

news.bahai.org/story/966

 

[PRmerger]

The anomaly comes when you imagine a body that is supposedly the same as a physical body,

Well, therein lies your error.

No one has said that Jesus’ resurrected body is “supposedly the same as a physical body.”

What is being proclaimed is that Jesus’ resurrection was a physical resurrection. Not a spiritual one.

Huge difference there.

 

[Servant19]

Well, therein lies your error.

No one has said that Jesus’ resurrected body is “supposedly the same as a physical body.”

What is being proclaimed is that Jesus’ resurrection was a physical resurrection. Not a spiritual one.

Huge difference there.

So PR, what is the difference between a physical resurrection and the resurrection of a physical body?

 

[PRmerger]

It is very true that the scriptures tell of defeating death. That is true of our spirit, which can live eternally, but a body that is physical but does not have the properties of being physical just doesn’t make any sense.

One has to wonder why this is an impediment to you, while the idea of the Incarnation is not.

For is it also not true that a person who is 100% man who is also 100% divine “just doesn’t make any sense”?

 

[PRmerger]

So PR, what is the difference between a physical resurrection and the resurrection of a physical body?

A physical resurrection means that Jesus did indeed literally, substantially, materially, physically rise from the dead.

And his physical body became glorified. It is absolutely now not “supposedly the same as a physical body”.

 

[SteveVH]

So PR, what is the difference between a physical resurrection and the resurrection of a physical body?

Servant, have you ever considered the fact that Jesus is both God and man. He is still both God and man. A perfect union of the divine with the human; the hypostatic union. Considering this, I find it curious that you doubt that Jesus’ resurrected body would have both the human and divine aspects to it, not separate and limited, but united and unlimited by the laws of nature.

As much as we have conversed it occurs to me that I still know relatively little about your true beliefs. Such as:

• Do you believe we need salvation?
• Do you believe we need a Savior?
• How are we saved?
• What do you believe to be the final destiny of man?

I think the question of salvation may get at the heart of why we seem to talk past each other. It is what makes Jesus Christ, to us, everything; he fulfills the longing of every human heart. We have absolutely no reason to look for anything or anyone else. You have heard this until I am sure you are blue in the face. It is why Baha’u’llah offers us nothing; we have everything in Christ.

So I am interested in just what you believe to be man’s destiny and how does he reach that destiny. Does it involve the salvation of one’s soul?

Thanks.