BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[eddie_too]

catholics are saved because God loves them. catholics are not saved because they love God, although catholics do love God it is not the cause of their salvation. catholics love of God is an effect not a cause.

a fundamental difference between bahai and catholic is their respective emphases. bahai emphasize life in this world. catholics emphasize life in the world to come.

 

[daler]

catholics are saved because God loves them. catholics are not saved because they love God, although catholics do love God it is not the cause of their salvation. catholics love of God is an effect not a cause.

a fundamental difference between bahai and catholic is their respective emphases. bahai emphasize life in this world. catholics emphasize life in the world to come.

Eddie,
. This is an inaccurate statement. A view of nature would serve as an appropriate analogy. The sun shines upon the earth. A seed in the ground must accept the warmth of the sun in order to germinate. Then it must push through the soil, reaching towards that sun, accepting its light, in order to grow.
. If it turns away from the light that the sun is always giving, it will die. Not because the sun ceases to shine, but because it has failed to respond in the order nature has been designed.
. It is the same for man. God always provides love for us, and we must love God in order to receive God’s love. This is a spiritual law even as the other is a natural law.

. “Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O Servant.” Baha’u’llah

. In this world, loving God’s Manifestation is how we love God, for we cannot approach God save approaching His Manifestation, even as Jesus said. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me.”

. The life to come is infinitely greater than this earthly life, but Jesus also prayed “Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.”

. “Regard ye the world as a man’s body, which is afflicted with divers ailments, and the recovery of which dependeth upon the harmonizing of all of its component elements. Gather ye around that which We have prescribed unto you, and walk not in the ways of such as create dissension. Meditate on the world and the state of its people. He, for Whose sake the world was called into being, hath been imprisoned in the most desolate of cities (‘Akká), by reason of that which the hands of the wayward have wrought. From the horizon of His prison-city He summoneth mankind unto the Dayspring of God, the Exalted, the Great. Exultest thou over the treasures thou dost possess, knowing they shall perish? Rejoicest thou in that thou rulest a span of earth, when the whole world, in the estimation of the people of Bahá, is worth as much as the black in the eye of a dead ant? Abandon it unto such as have set their affections upon it, and turn thou unto Him Who is the Desire of the world. Whither are gone the proud and their palaces? Gaze thou into their tombs, that thou mayest profit by this example, inasmuch as We made it a lesson unto every beholder. Were the breezes of Revelation to seize thee, thou wouldst flee the world, and turn unto the Kingdom, and wouldst expend all thou possessest, that thou mayest draw nigh unto this sublime Vision.”

from Baha’u’llah’s letter to Napoleon III foretelling his downfall for turning away from God

full text: reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/PB/pb-6.html

 

[SteveVH]

Faith in a Saviour will not bring salvation. It is Faith AND Works

Salvation is a complete gift. We are saved by God’s grace and cannot achieve salvation any other way. Our faith is measured by our works and as James said faith without works is dead. But if works could save us then we would have no need for a Savior. In any case we agree that we cannot have faith without works, but it must be understood in its proper perspective when it comes to salvation. God saves us. We cannot save ourselves, no matter what works we perform.

So the question arises, if I were a good Catholic, feeding the poor, helping the homeless, why would I need Baha’u’llah.

The Father, through Jesus has taught us how to build a house. The Father, through Baha’u’llah has taught us how to build a planet.

So he has taught us how to save ourselves?

IT IS A SIN, let me repeat, IT IS A SIN, to simply assume that just feeding the poor and helping the homeless, generation after generation, with the MASSIVE gulf that still exists between rich and poor (and poverty is just one example) to simply assume that feeding them here and there is the way to salvation. The Catholic church does a lot of good, yet still millions upon millions of children are dying every year from poverty.

First of all you begin with the false premise that we believe that our actions save us. We are obligated and commanded by Christ to take care of the poor; to relieve the suffering of this world to the best of our abilities. This is how we love God; by loving our neighbor as ourselves through concrete action. But we cannot attain heaven without the grace of Christ.

Are we feeding the poor because we REALLY care for them, or are we going through the same motions because it will give us so called “salvation”

You will have to answer that question for yourself. As for the Catholic, we are feeding the poor because we REALLY care for them and I take offense at your implication.

So salvation is achieved through DEEDS.

Wait a minute. You just got through taking the Catholic Church to task because of its deeds of carrying out Christ’s command to care for the poor, implying that we have ulterior motives in doing so, and then you tell me that salvation is achieved through deeds.

In any event, we would completely disagree. Salvation is achieved through the sacrifice of Christ, not by our own actions. In Christ we die to sin and receive the gift of eternal life. There is no other way to achieve salvation. That is why we have no need of Baha’u’llah. He did not die for me and cleanse me of my sins and he did not defeat death. Only Jesus did that.

 

[daler]

the reason it seems to me that bahai is primarily a political party or philosophy is based on the emphasis its followers give to this world and how to change this world.

from a religious perspective, bahai teachings offer nothing to repair mankind’s relationship with its Creator.

bahai teachings indicate that human beings can atone for their sins by stopping sinning and doing good works. those who cannot become perfect or whose good works are lacking become doomed.

for me, that is the essence of pessimism and defeat. it is all up to the finite and imperfect human creature to somehow convince its perfect and infinite Creator that it is WORTHY of its Creator’s benevolence.

bahai does not address the question of why should infinite and perfect Being be controlled by the acts of finite and imperfect human beings?

Eddie,
. I think you are forgetting a couple of things.

. “The Will of the Father. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but [only] he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Jesus

. “Of the increase of His government and of peace there will be no end…” Isaiah

. What you describe as “political” in regards to Baha’i is inaccurate. We are forbidden to participate in all partisan politics or belong to political parties, which by definition “part” and divide humanity, thus destroying unity, which is essential to harmony of the whole.

. “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind.” . Baha’u’llah

. Baha’is are the most “optimistic” people on earth, for we see the Kingdom of God, so long promised in the Scriptures, as being fulfilled in the building of the Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith, now having a world wide system of self-governance consisting of over 10,000 democratically elected Local Spiritual Assemblies, 182 National Spiritual Assemblies, and one Universal House of Justice located in Haifa, Israel.

. This is the promise being fulfilled by Lord of Hosts in answer to Christ’s prayer:
“Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

 

[eddie_too]

the words of a bahaian, “we see the Kingdom of God, so long promised in the Scriptures, as being fulfilled in the building of the Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith, now having a world wide system of self-governance consisting of over 10,000 democratically elected Local Spiritual Assemblies, 182 National Spiritual Assemblies, and one Universal House of Justice located in Haifa, Israel.”

but, agains the words of bahaian, “we are not political”.

 

[daler]

Wait a minute. You just got through taking the Catholic Church to task because of its deeds of carrying out Christ’s command to care for the poor, implying that we have ulterior motives in doing so, and then you tell me that salvation is achieved through deeds.

.

Steve,
. No one is taking the Catholic Church to task for feeding the poor, etc. We have nothing but praises for all the great and wonderful charitable works the Catholics are doing in the world. As you say, you are fulfilling Christ’s command, caring for the needy and the oppressed. I’m not sure where you’re coming from in doubting our solidarity with you on the importance of doing all of these good deeds.

. I think that what is not being understood is that we need to become unified as a single human body before we can truly realize the Kingdom of God on earth, that division and disunity are the cause of poverty, destruction, and perpetual war. “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”

. Baha’is are really not concerned with their personal salvation. That has already been assured. What we are concerned with is the condition of humanity, which has turned away from God by not accepting His Manifestation and the guidance of God.

. "We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?.. Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind…. … Baha’u’llah

 

[eddie_too]

so what in bahai teaching is the cause of division and disunity?

 

[daler]

so what in bahai teaching is the cause of division and disunity?

Eddie,
. We are told that there shall be One Fold and One Shepherd. Another way this can be seen is in the vision of Black Elk.

. “I looked ahead and saw the mountains there with rocks and forests upon them, and from the mountains flashed all colors upwards to the heavens. Then I was standing on the highest mountain of them all, and round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world. And while I stood there I saw more than I can tell and I understood more than I saw, for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit and the shape of all shapes as they must live together in one being. And I saw the sacred hoop of my people was one of many sacred hoops that made one circle, wide as daylight and as starlight, and in the center grew one mighty and flowering tree to shelter all the children of one mother and one father. And I saw that it was holy.”

. Baha’u’llah says “Ye are all the fruits of one tree and the leaves of just one branch.”

and “Be as the fingers of one hand.” for “The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.”

Our common “dis-ease” is disunity, and this is the most fundamental problem facing mankind in this day.

. “The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”

Baha’u’llah

 

[Lochias]

. I think that what is not being understood is that we need to become unified as a single human body before we can truly realize the Kingdom of God on earth, that division and disunity are the cause of poverty, destruction, and perpetual war.

If all the people who say this really cared about unity, they’d become Catholic.

 

[eddie_too]

what do the bahai teach as the cause of division and disunity?

 

[daler]

If all the people who say this really cared about unity, they’d become Catholic.

Lochias,
. You make a good point in that all really do need to care about unity to such a degree that all should wish to be enrolled under one banner. The trouble is, everyone wants it to be “their” banner. Whether, Catholic, Baptist, Buddhist, Hindu, Shiite, Sunni, and on and on ad infinitum. What needs to be addressed is the following set of expectations, for all await their Promised One, and none shall be satisfied until “He” comes.

The King of Glory: “Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the ‘Lord of Hosts’ and the ‘King of Glory.’”

The Promised One: “To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the ‘Everlasting Father,’ the ‘Lord of Hosts’ come down ‘with ten thousands of saints’; to Christendom Christ returned ‘in the glory of the Father,’ to Shi’ih Islam the return of the Imam Husayn; to Sunni Islam the descent of the ‘Spirit of God’; to the Zoroastrians the promised Shah-Bahram; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.”

The Glory of God: “To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the ‘Glory of God,’ as the ‘Alpha and Omega,’ ‘the Beginning and the End,’ ‘the First and the Last,’ … he, moreover, had extolled His Law as ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ as the ‘Tabernacle of God,’ as the ‘Holy City,’ as the ‘New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.’

The Spirit of Truth: “To Him Jesus Christ referred as the ‘Prince of this world,’ as the ‘Comforter’ Who will ‘reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement,’ as the ‘Spirit of Truth,’ Who ‘will guide you into all truth,’ Who ‘shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,’ as the ‘Lord of the Vineyard’ and as the ‘Son of Man’ Who ‘shall come in the glory of His Father’ ‘in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,’ with ‘all the holy angels’ about Him, and ‘all nations’ gathered before His throne. … To His Day Jesus Christ Himself had referred as ‘The regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.’”

The Great Announcement: “To Him Muhammad, the Apostle of God, had alluded in His Book as the ‘Great Announcement,’ and declared His Day to be the Day whereon ‘God’ will ‘come down’ ‘overshadowed with clouds,’ the Day whereon ‘thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank,’ and ‘The Spirit shall arise and the angels shall be ranged in order.’"

The Everlasting Father: “To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as ‘The Glory of the Lord,’ the ‘Everlasting Father,’ the ‘Prince of Peace,’ the ‘Wonderful,’ the Counsellor’. . .”

The Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna: “To Him the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindus had referred as the ‘Most Great Spirit,’ the ‘Tenth Avatar,’ the ‘Immaculate Manifestation of Krishna.’”

The Buddha of Universal Fellowship: “He alone is meant by the prophecy attributed to Gautama Buddha Himself, that ‘a Buddha named Maitreye, the Buddha of universal fellowship’ should, in the fullness of time, arise and reveal ‘His boundless glory.’”

. What Baha’is, from all of these many varied backgrounds, including Catholic, are saying, is that the Promised One of all these religions has indeed come at last. We honestly believe that Baha’u’llah is that Promised One.

 

[daler]

what do the bahai teach as the cause of division and disunity?

Eddie,
. A great deal of it has to do with the leadership of the divines in all the religions, leading people according to their own desire for position and authority:

. “Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people.

. By their sanction and authority, every Prophet of God hath drunk from the chalice of sacrifice, and winged His flight unto the heights of glory. Content with a transitory dominion, they have deprived themselves of an everlasting sovereignty.”

(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 12)

 

[Lochias]

Lochias,
. You make a good point in that all really do need to care about unity to such a degree that all should wish to be enrolled under one banner. The trouble is, everyone wants it to be “their” banner.

The difference with all of these being that Catholics can back up what they claim. No other religion on earth can boast that.

Logic and reason lead to the Catholic Church, if people choose logic and reason. It really is that simple.

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus died for my salvation.

what did Baha’u’llah ever do for me?

after Jesus sacrificial death, what more do i need to be saved?

 

[daler]

what do the bahai teach as the cause of division and disunity?

I found this link, which is concise, and to the point:

baha-revelation.com/leaders-of-religion-will-turn-away-from-bahaullah/the%20revelation%20of%20Bahaullah

 

[eddie_too]

when did the division and disunity begin? has creation always been divided and disunited?

 

[Servant19]

Salvation is a complete gift. We are saved by God’s grace and cannot achieve salvation any other way. Our faith is measured by our works and as James said faith without works is dead. But if works could save us then we would have no need for a Savior. In any case we agree that we cannot have faith without works, but it must be understood in its proper perspective when it comes to salvation. God saves us. We cannot save ourselves, no matter what works we perform.

So he has taught us how to save ourselves?

First of all you begin with the false premise that we believe that our actions save us. We are obligated and commanded by Christ to take care of the poor; to relieve the suffering of this world to the best of our abilities. This is how we love God; by loving our neighbor as ourselves through concrete action. But we cannot attain heaven without the grace of Christ.

You will have to answer that question for yourself. As for the Catholic, we are feeding the poor because we REALLY care for them and I take offense at your implication.

Wait a minute. You just got through taking the Catholic Church to task because of its deeds of carrying out Christ’s command to care for the poor, implying that we have ulterior motives in doing so, and then you tell me that salvation is achieved through deeds.

In any event, we would completely disagree. Salvation is achieved through the sacrifice of Christ, not by our own actions. In Christ we die to sin and receive the gift of eternal life. There is no other way to achieve salvation. That is why we have no need of Baha’u’llah. He did not die for me and cleanse me of my sins and he did not defeat death. Only Jesus did that.

Hi Steve,

You spent two posts deliberating on every aspect of my post yet refrained from noticing the most important bit.

These twin duties are inseparable…

Where did I say it was just about action? The DIFFERENCE between our Faiths is the NATURE of the action…

One aligns with Gods Will for today.
The other aligns with Gods Will for a period of 600 or so years from year 1 to 632.

I repeat…

“These twin duties are inseparable”

 

[Servant19]

Jesus died for my salvation.

what did Baha’u’llah ever do for me?

after Jesus sacrificial death, what more do i need to be saved?

Eddie, maybe upon reflection of this post, you may come to realize how incredibly self-centered the religion of Christ has turned people into.

Jesus’ message was about selflessness, and Bahaullah has restored that

 

[Servant19]

when did the division and disunity begin? has creation always been divided and disunited?

Not necessarily, there have been periods of history when there have been tremendous periods of unity, within villages, cities, regions and empires.

There are several countries today that demonstrate wonderful examples of unity and harmony.

It is now time for global unity…

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus message has many elements, but the most fundamental element is His offer of eternal life through Him.

as for this comment, “Jesus’ message was about selflessness, and Bahaullah has restored that”, it reminds me of the mormons teaching that Jesus’ failed to preserve the path to eternal life for His followers.

bhaullah did nothing for anyone else. he conned people and reaped material rewards (such as prestige, recognition and adoration) in this life.

bhaullah’s teachings serve only to dilute the teachings of Jesus that give every human being an opportunity for eternal life. for this reason, it is best that bahaullah and his teachings be consigned to the dustbin of history.