BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[MartinJordan]

Jesus Himself said that “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bare it now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, “He” will guide you into all truth.”

Er No.

John 16:14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

Matthew 28:20 - and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

MJ

 

[daler]

Er No.

John 16:14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

MJ

Jesus said:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me…” (John 16:13-14)

Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is now come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own Self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause.” (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p.12)

 

[Bballer32]

Jesus Himself said that “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bare it now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, “He” will guide you into all truth.”

. "These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated."

Baha’u’llah

That’s relative, progressive, semi-liberal, subjective etc. which all started in the late 19th century early 20th century, which is approximately the same time as the origin of the Baha’i faith. Here, let me explain this too you through the truth of Math. Is Math relative, or are the answers for each individual problem truth, meaning that there is only one truth or absolute truth:
The use of symbols (i.e. 1, 2, 3, etc.) are all subjective but what is Absolute is the numbers that already existed. Once someone discovered how much A+B=C they inserted symbols to represent numbers that were already there which is Absolute. This is called Mathematical induction. Think of the dominoes. If we took plain dark dominoes with nothing on them they would just be dominoes. Now, if we stacked up 2 of the dominoes next to each other and pushed them over, we would have two dominoes left over. It took one domino to hit another domino in order to have 2 fallen dominoes. Therefore, one domino that hits another domino cannot in any way shape or form have 8 dominoes appear from 2 fallen dominoes. This proves that the symbols are subjective but the figures of the number themselves is absolute, which points to absolute truth.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, that which is written we are all familiar with. What my mind seeks to resolve is His entering the room, not using the door, and departing again. I resolve this by recognizing that His clear and definite “Presence” entered the room and this Presence was discerned in the faces of the believers. Thomas required further proof.

That the story is told in the first person is understood. That which is contained within the story is that the Presence of the Living Lord was tangible, and very apparent to the believers, and then to Thomas as well. How this story describing the very real presence of Christ was told is the issue at hand. We all know that many take it at face value, which is understandable, but then dismiss His going and coming as some sort of “mystery” which they do not feel obligated to discuss further.

And again, when considered in light of His other statement that “Where two or three gather in My name, there I am also” The two interpretations must be compatible.

How can you discount what the Church believed, from the earliest days, by those who knew and lived with the Apostles? Would not any reasonable person agree that those who were closest to the original human authors, people like Polycarp who was a student of John, most likely understand what they meant? The belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus was foundational, from the beginning of the Church, both in Scripture and Tradition and is attested to by the earliest Church fathers.

This is where the Baha’i faith goes completely off the rails. It ignores what the Church, from the beginning, believed and simply borrows what it chooses to support its position and twists it in any way necessary in order to fit the Baha’i paradigm. The Gospels were written as testimonies, not visions or prophecies.

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus said:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me…” (John 16:13-14)

Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is now come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own Self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause.” (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p.12)

Which Bible are you using?

Rather… you didn’t complete verse 14.

MJ

 

[Bballer32]

Jesus said:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me…” (John 16:13-14)

You just helped our argument. The Spirit of Truth did come. That was at Pentecost, which as you can see happened after this was said. The Spirit of Truth came and revealed all truth to the Apostles who in turn handed them down to their successors.

 

[daler]

That’s relative, progressive, …

The books were sealed to Daniel until the time of the end.
The books were sealed to John the Revelator as well.
Even Jesus Himself said, “No man knoweth the hour. Neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son. But only the Father, He knoweth.”

What Baha’is are saying is that Baha’u’llah (the Glory of God) has unsealed the meanings hidden in the Holy Books, which the Holy Books clearly and specifically state were “sealed” even to those that wrote them.

Until one attains to the station of a “true seeker”, as in, “Seek, and ye shall find”, no amount of exposure to the Words of God as revealed in this age through the Pen of Baha’u’llah will convince one. It is even as Jesus said to those who took Him off to be crucified: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man seated upon the right hand of power and might?” No. They did not behold Him. For they had eyes, but did not see.

It might do well to read the following:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-125.html

 

[Bballer32]

The books were sealed to Daniel until the time of the end.
The books were sealed to John the Revelator as well.
Even Jesus Himself said, “No man knoweth the hour. Neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son. But only the Father, He knoweth.”

What Baha’is are saying is that Baha’u’llah (the Glory of God) has unsealed the meanings hidden in the Holy Books, which the Holy Books clearly and specifically state were “sealed” even to those that wrote them.

Until one attains to the station of a “true seeker”, as in, “Seek, and ye shall find”, no amount of exposure to the Words of God as revealed in this age through the Pen of Baha’u’llah will convince one. It is even as Jesus said to those who took Him off to be crucified: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man seated upon the right hand of power and might?” No. They did not behold Him. For they had eyes, but did not see.

It might do well to read the following:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-125.html

This has nothing to do with what i said

 

[daler]

You just helped our argument. The Spirit of Truth did come. That was at Pentecost, which as you can see happened after this was said. The Spirit of Truth came and revealed all truth to the Apostles who in turn handed them down to their successors.

That is the common understanding of many Christians. It was my understanding as well. In reality, however, the Apostles clearly did not have all truth, for they expected Jesus would come within their own lives, while Jesus Himself referred them to Daniel the prophet, who foretold accurately when Messiah shall be cut off, in 70 weeks (490 years) after the rebuilding of Jerusalem, beginning in 457 BC.

490 - 457 = 33 AD, or 34, as there was no year zero.

2300 - 457 = 1843, +1 = 1844 AD

1844 AD = 1260 AH

time 360, times 720, and 1/2 time = 1260

42 months X 30 = 1260

3 1/2 days (of 360) also = 1260

Daniel’s vision occurred in Elam, or SW Persia, where the Bab declared His mission in 1844 AD, 1260 AH

Jeremiah said “The Lord shall set His throne in Elam”, which He did, in that same year, the one prophesied by Daniel, which date is confirmed by the coming of Christ Himself and His being cut off at the end of the 70 weeks, or 490 years.

 

[arthra]

My question for the Bah’hai faith is this:

Do you believe that your religion contains the Absolute Truth?

It may be this concept of truth as relative is a new one… Christianity has made claims it is the final revelation and you should not seek further… Same is true in Islam as they call Muhammad the final prophet and so on.

Be that as it may the Baha’i view is likely a new concept. Here are some excerpts that may help explain:

"It should also be borne in mind that, great as is the power manifested by this Revelation and however vast the range of the Dispensation its Author has inaugurated, it emphatically repudiates the claim to be regarded as the final revelation of God’s will and purpose for mankind. To hold such a conception of its character and functions would be tantamount to a betrayal of its cause and a denial of its truth. It must necessarily conflict with the fundamental principle which constitutes the bedrock of Bahá’í belief, the principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is orderly, continuous and progressive and not spasmodic or final."

~ Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 115

"Nor does Bahá’u’lláh claim finality for His own Revelation, but rather stipulates that a fuller measure of the truth He has been commissioned by the Almighty to vouchsafe to humanity, at so critical a juncture in its fortunes, must needs be disclosed at future stages in the constant and limitless evolution of mankind."

~ Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, the preface

 

[Bballer32]

That is the common understanding of many Christians. It was my understanding as well. In reality, however, the Apostles clearly did not have all truth, for they expected Jesus would come within their own lives, while Jesus Himself referred them to Daniel the prophet, who foretold accurately when Messiah shall be cut off, in 70 weeks (490 years) after the rebuilding of Jerusalem, beginning in 457 BC.

490 - 457 = 33 AD, or 34, as there was no year zero.

2300 - 457 = 1843, +1 = 1844 AD

1844 AD = 1260 AH

time 360, times 720, and 1/2 time = 1260

42 months X 30 = 1260

3 1/2 days (of 360) also = 1260

Daniel’s vision occurred in Elam, or SW Persia, where the Bab declared His mission in 1844 AD, 1260 AH

Jeremiah said “The Lord shall set His throne in Elam”, which He did, in that same year, the one prophesied by Daniel, which date is confirmed by the coming of Christ Himself and His being cut off at the end of the 70 weeks, or 490 years.

There is this horror movie i think it’s called “23” where everything they do somehow comes out to 23. When one does math in any way shape or form to try to get an answer, it can happen which is clearly what you did. There is no relevance to your statement and the fact that you pulled random numbers out of thin air makes it worse.

 

[daler]

There is this horror movie i think it’s called “23” where everything they do somehow comes out to 23. When one does math in any way shape or form to try to get an answer, it can happen which is clearly what you did. There is no relevance to your statement and the fact that you pulled random numbers out of thin air makes it worse.

It is hardly out of thin air, unless you discard the visions of Daniel and in Revelations.
For you, it may not be relevant, as apparently you are unfamiliar with the time prophecies.
That is ok if it is not your interest, but for me, because I had a certain fascination with prophecies and particularly the time prophecies which pointed to the coming of Jesus, they are of interest.

For those who are familiar with the time, and place, prophecies, such things are of definite interest because the provide further proofs for the fulfillment of prophetic utterances contained within the text of the Bible itself.

As to mathematics, children are taught very elementary concepts at first, such as the numbers and fractions, using apples and pie charts. Later, when they have comprehended these basic concepts, their knowledge is extended further through the use of symbols such as algebraic equations. The use of letters does not mean that simple numbers are no longer valid. This truth is relative, and understood in accordance with the capacity of the students, not their teachers.

“I have many equations to teach you, but you cannot comprehend it now. Howbeit, when you get to College, your Professor will teach you all those equations.”

It is the same for the Prophets of God. Abraham taught simple truths of the One God. Moses gave the Ten Commandments. By doing so, he did not nullify the Oneness of God, but confirmed it. Similarly, Jesus elevated human understanding of God in accordance with the ability of the disciples and others to understand, or bare it. This was 2000 years ago - a very long time for God to be silent, considering the history of the Old and New Testament, when God spoke to mankind at least every few centuries.

What Baha’is are saying is that God did not remain silent for 2000 years. That he further revealed His will to mankind through Muhammad, the Bab, and most recently, Baha’u’llah. One can dismiss this without investigation, as the Jews did Jesus, or take advantage of the vast resources so easily available on the Internet and study the Baha’i Writings. Then, after having independently investigated the truth for one’s self, speak with some semblance of integrity upon the subject matter, rather than simply rejecting that which is not immediately apparent.

 

[pablope]

That is the common understanding of many Christians. It was my understanding as well. In reality, however, the Apostles clearly did not have all truth, for they expected Jesus would come within their own lives, while Jesus Himself referred them to Daniel the prophet, who foretold accurately when Messiah shall be cut off, in 70 weeks (490 years) after the rebuilding of Jerusalem, beginning in 457 BC.

490 - 457 = 33 AD, or 34, as there was no year zero.

2300 - 457 = 1843, +1 = 1844 AD

1844 AD = 1260 AH

time 360, times 720, and 1/2 time = 1260

42 months X 30 = 1260

3 1/2 days (of 360) also = 1260

Daniel’s vision occurred in Elam, or SW Persia, where the Bab declared His mission in 1844 AD, 1260 AH

Jeremiah said “The Lord shall set His throne in Elam”, which He did, in that same year, the one prophesied by Daniel, which date is confirmed by the coming of Christ Himself and His being cut off at the end of the 70 weeks, or 490 years.

Hmmm…this is all conjecture and your own interpretation…so the question is …why is your interpretation to be believed as true?

And how can you be sure they apply to the bahai?

How about the SDA…who read the same verses and interpret them to mean differently than you do? so…who is correct?

 

[pablope]

“Until” the Lord Himself comes again and manifests Himself on earth, at which time, apostolic authority ceases to be the criteria.

 

[Servant19]

Hmmm…this is all conjecture and your own interpretation…so the question is …why is your interpretation to be believed as true?

And how can you be sure they apply to the bahai?

How about the SDA…who read the same verses and interpret them to mean differently than you do? so…who is correct?

How can you be sure that Jesus is the Messiah?

How can you be sure that He is the Lord of Salvation?

Because He said so right?

If you read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and LOOK, just a brief glance will do, at what the global Baha’i community is doing as a response to the Writings of Baha’u’llah and His Teachings, there will be plenty of adequate proof.

The fruits are plentiful, and the UNITY is manifest. The lamb and the wolf are eating from the same pastures, yet people are still “bereft of discernment, to see God with their own eyes, or hear His melody with their own ears”

God bless

 

[Servant19]

Yet He did…and respected them…and also submitted Himself for crucifixion.

 

[pablope]

How can you be sure that Jesus is the Messiah?

How can you be sure that He is the Lord of Salvation?

 

[pablope]

That is not what I am asking about:

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

So…who with apostolic authority were his teachings/writings submitted assured as from God, following the example of st. paul above?

See the revalation to Paul…the revelation to Paul was to go to Jerusalem and submit his gospel…so any revelation, any claim would be in line with what was revealed to Paul.

Please share with us how Baha’u’llah goes against the very way that truth is determined?

The example of St Paul…the this passage from John…1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

And this passage:

Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

The exampl of Paul again…Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

So who sent Bahullah? Who laid hands on him prior to teaching or preaching?

What is the SDA church doing today and what is the Baha’i community doing today. Please do a comparison

Fruits, fruits, fruits…works, works, works…deeds, deed, deeds

That is not what I am asking…I am asking…which is the truth? Who has the truth? Are there many truths or only one truth?

In the EXACT same way that Jesus submitted Himself to authority, Baha’u’llah did likewise…

Which apostolic authority did he submit his teachings, who sent him, who ordained him?

 

[Servant19]

That’s relative, progressive, semi-liberal, subjective etc. which all started in the late 19th century early 20th century, which is approximately the same time as the origin of the Baha’i faith. Here, let me explain this too you through the truth of Math. Is Math relative, or are the answers for each individual problem truth, meaning that there is only one truth or absolute truth:
The use of symbols (i.e. 1, 2, 3, etc.) are all subjective but what is Absolute is the numbers that already existed. Once someone discovered how much A+B=C they inserted symbols to represent numbers that were already there which is Absolute. This is called Mathematical induction. Think of the dominoes. If we took plain dark dominoes with nothing on them they would just be dominoes. Now, if we stacked up 2 of the dominoes next to each other and pushed them over, we would have two dominoes left over. It took one domino to hit another domino in order to have 2 fallen dominoes. Therefore, one domino that hits another domino cannot in any way shape or form have 8 dominoes appear from 2 fallen dominoes. This proves that the symbols are subjective but the figures of the number themselves is absolute, which points to absolute truth.

Maths has no absolute truth.

My friend, you are looking with PHYSICAL EYES.

Absolute truth is in the spiritual realm. It is beyond maths, human thinking, science etc etc

Only when we manifest spiritual truth in our physical realm will we gradually uncover the truth. Then when we have advanced to a certain stage of application of spiritual values, THEN things often decline spiritually, and it is at this time that the Father would reveal His purpose to humanity, adding another drop of truth to be applied for FURTHER advancement.

Deeds and works are what God’s Will is for humanity, and FAITH that He will always guide us to progress. He guides us through His Prophets, His Sons, His Manifestations, and their Teachings, so we can manifest fruits which are more and more Godly…

Maths provides absolutes for this realm.
Try and teach maths to a plant, and it will have witnessed truth beyond its wildest dreams. Now go ahead and realise that humans are NOTHING when it comes to truth.

After all, its a simple mathematical extrapolation to know that if there is lesser life forms, that there must be higher life forms

 

[tonyfish58]

Hmmm…No, this is not the way.

From the example of St. Paul:

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Paul had a direct revelation from Christ. Yet, from the two passages above, he goes to visit Cephas/Peter and submits himself to Peter.

Gal 2: 2 states another purpose…to present his gospel/message to make sure it is in line with the Apostles and what they were handed down from Christ.

God would not contradict what has been revealed…so as you can see from Gal 2, anyone claiming to come with a new teaching from God…the revelation to that claimant would be to submit himself to an authority…to an apostolic authority.

And further…one must also be sent, and Paul is the example again:

Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

Now look at Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
Look at verse 3 and see what the Antioch Church elders do…“they placed their hands on them and sent them off.”

And you can see this further when John says how to know the truth:

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood

pablope - Thank you for your response - Could or should one contemplate on why the Jews did not accept Christ and what arguments they used to disprove Christ?

The Jews have and do still rightly accuse the Christians that a lot of scripture did remained unfulfilled with the declaration of Christ!

Did God contradict His Word for the Jews? Or did the Jews misread the scriptures?

Could it be if one pursues a scripture with an intent in mind then one will find a scripture to support ones intent!

One of the greatest spiritual truths that we have to come to terms with is that God shall not be asked about His Doings

This quote may be helpful - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh XXXVII

“Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings.” Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief, and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.
Were He to decree as lawful the thing which from time immemorial had been forbidden, and forbid that which had, at all times, been regarded as lawful, to none is given the right to question His authority. Whoso will hesitate, though it be for less than a moment, should be regarded as a transgressor.
Whoso hath not recognized this sublime and fundamental verity, and hath failed to attain this most exalted station, the winds of doubt will agitate him, and the sayings of the infidels will distract his soul. He that hath acknowledged this principle will be endowed with the most perfect constancy. All honor to this all-glorious station, the remembrance of which adorneth every exalted Tablet. Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful”.

Regards Tony