BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[arthra]

Steve wrote above:

*It occurs to me that the Baha’i faith grew out of Islam which also rejects the resurrection (and even the crucifixion). Will you admit at least some Islamic bias here when attempting to interpret Christian Scripture which leads to the Baha’i conclusion that Jesus was resurrected, but only spiritually? *

As you know our Faith recognizes the crucifixion and spiritual resurrection of Jesus…

The verse in the Qur’an we see as not denying the crucifixion…in the following manner:

Qur’an elsewhere says the Martyrs should not be seen as “dead” or killed…

And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive,** but you perceive [it] not.**

Surih 2:154

The same has been said about Christian martyrs…

…most Muslims maintain that Jesus was not crucified, but one who looked like Him was instead, based on their understanding of Qur’án 4:157:

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, **but so it was made to appear to them, **and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

…

Shoghi Effendi, however, states that the Qur’ánic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate

(Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669); this resolves an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. "

Abdul-Baha though also commented on the Qur’anic verse saying the the Spirit of Christ could not be crucified and that those who crucified Him were hoping they had killed His Cause… The disciples later rallied and understood that the martrydom of Jesus was not the end and that the Cause of Christ was “resurrected” spiritually:

“We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.”

9 October 1947 to an individual believer

 

[eddie_too]

am i the only one who finds it strange to believe that a spirit ate food with the apostles and that the apostles laid their hands on a spirit?

such a belief seems to beg the definition of spirit. i always thought a spirit was a non-physical being. how does a non-physical being consume food? how can a physical being physically touch a spirit?

the bab’s understanding of Jesus and the New Testament does not account for Jesus eating real food and being really touched by the physical apostles.

why believe the bab and what he taught? his teachings contain so much that is not true, or is not supported by facts.

 

[arthra]

Eddie posed a question:

“…the real question is, if bab was so enlightened, why did he not become a devoted and saintly follower of Jesus Christ? what were his motives in disrespecting and trying to dilute the teachings of Christ?”

Consider that the title “Bab” means gate…

13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

(King James Bible, Luke)

But what did the Bab reveal about Jesus:

Consider with due attention, for the path is very strait, even while it is more spacious than the heavens and the earth and what is between them. For instance, if all those who were expecting the fulfilment of the promise of Jesus had been assured of the manifestation of Muhammad, the Apostle of God, not one would have turned aside from the sayings of Jesus.

(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 110)

What Baha’u’llah revealed:

Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God, was, notwithstanding His extreme meekness and perfect tender-heartedness, treated by His enemies. So fierce was the opposition which He, the Essence of Being and Lord of the visible and invisible, had to face, that He had nowhere to lay His head. He wandered continually from place to place, deprived of a permanent abode.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 56)

This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 48)

Consider the Dispensation of Jesus Christ. Behold, how all the learned men of that generation, though eagerly anticipating the coming of the Promised One, have nevertheless denied Him. Both Annas, the most learned among the divines of His day, and Caiaphas, the high priest, denounced Him and pronounced the sentence of His death.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 83)

There is so much more there is no room here to recount all of the references to Jesus in the Writings.

 

[doormouse73]

Please, stay around as long as you like. Baha’u’llah instructs His followers to “Unloose your tongues and proclaim unceasingly His cause.” So, we do, but it is always offered as a gift, and if the gift is refused we pray for the ones that refuse it and leave them to themselves. We understand where you are coming from because most of us were previously in the exact same mind-set. Anything ‘new’ is always resisted, even ridiculed, especially in religious thought and interpretation. The beauty of this age is that information is readily available. Nothing is hidden; it’s available to all. Will you look?

im so glad one of you have come forward with this…

all ive heard from the bahais is you can keep what ever religion you have when you join that does not matter they say… its all in the searching process of your spirit… The irony of all this is that one of the 12 principles of their faith that they promote is “independent search for truth.” This teaching however, is just a window dressing. Nothing more than a slogan. It is what they expect others to do to find the Bahai faith, but once you find it you must close all doors of searching. There is nothing to search after becoming a Baha’i. The Baha’i Faith is the destination - the end of the journey.

and you say nothing is hidden?? lolol i find that very hard to believe…

 

[arthra]

im so glad one of you have come forward with this…

all ive heard from the bahais is you can keep what ever religion you have when you join that does not matter they say… its all in the searching process of your spirit… The irony of all this is that one of the 12 principles of their faith that they promote is “independent search for truth.” This teaching however, is just a window dressing. Nothing more than a slogan. It is what they expect others to do to find the Bahai faith, but once you find it you must close all doors of searching. There is nothing to search after becoming a Baha’i. The Baha’i Faith is the destination - the end of the journey.

and you say nothing is hidden?? lolol i find that very hard to believe…

It’s true the principle is the independent investigation of reality:

Among these teachings was the independent investigation of reality so that the world of humanity may be saved from the darkness of imitation and attain to the truth; may tear off and cast away this ragged and outgrown garment of 1,000 years ago and may put on the robe woven in the utmost purity and holiness in the loom of reality. As reality is one and cannot admit of multiplicity, therefore different opinions must ultimately become fused into one.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 285)

*Discover for yourselves the reality of things, and strive to assimilate the methods by which noble-mindedness and glory are attained among the nations and people of the world.

No man should follow blindly his ancestors and forefathers. Nay, each must see with his own eyes, hear with his own ears and investigate independently in order that he may find the truth. The religion of forefathers and ancestors is based upon blind imitation. Man should investigate reality.*

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 24)

The Baha’i Faith does not claim finality…

Nor does Bahá’u’lláh claim finality for His own Revelation, but rather stipulates that a fuller measure of the truth He has been commissioned by the Almighty to vouchsafe to humanity, at so critical a juncture in its fortunes, must needs be disclosed at future stages in the constant and limitless evolution of mankind.
(Shoghi Effendi, Summary Statement - 1947, Special UN Committee on Palestine)

 

[eddie_too]

so far, what i have gathered from the bahai commenters on this thread is that bahai is the to be expected offspring of a marriage between mormonism and islam.

all three proclaim that Jesus needs help.

 

[Nick44]

im so glad one of you have come forward with this…

all ive heard from the bahais is you can keep what ever religion you have when you join that does not matter they say… its all in the searching process of your spirit… The irony of all this is that one of the 12 principles of their faith that they promote is “independent search for truth.” This teaching however, is just a window dressing. Nothing more than a slogan. It is what they expect others to do to find the Bahai faith, but once you find it you must close all doors of searching. There is nothing to search after becoming a Baha’i. The Baha’i Faith is the destination - the end of the journey.

and you say nothing is hidden?? lolol i find that very hard to believe…

Mouse, we are ALL on the ‘journey’ but we believe that the journey never ends, it is eternal. The door of search is NEVER closed; what we don’t know is always vastly greater than what we do. There are many who investigate the Baha’i Faith who never believe in it, but if they have sincerely done that investigation then they have fulfilled God’s instruction. It is very important to search, to investigate, to question. Jesus himself said he would spew the lukewarm person out of his mouth…he could deal with the firm believer and the firm denier but the apathetic he had no use for. Prejudice (to pre-judge) is never the path to knowledge.

 

[doormouse73]

Mouse, we are ALL on the ‘journey’ but we believe that the journey never ends, it is eternal. The door of search is NEVER closed; what we don’t know is always vastly greater than what we do. There are many who investigate the Baha’i Faith who never believe in it, but if they have sincerely done that investigation then they have fulfilled God’s instruction. It is very important to search, to investigate, to question. Jesus himself said he would spew the lukewarm person out of his mouth…he could deal with the firm believer and the firm denier but the apathetic he had no use for. Prejudice (to pre-judge) is never the path to knowledge.

i dont need to do any more investigating thank you…

you dont believe in the passion,death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ,who came to save sinners like me…

to show and teach me Gods love, how it was meant to be from the beginning,only because man cannot do it, he can do his best but man is full of sin,hence the annunciation, God sent his son the second in the trinity to do it.dont believe me look at this …

[1] In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. [3] And God said: Be light made. And light was made. [4] And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. [5] And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=1&l=

the best book you will ever need… also put that into your life and daily things…

you will see that it is the living God that is the truth…in Jesus Christ… nobody else… there is only one living God,and that word was MADE flesh…

Gospel According to Saint John Chapter 1

6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. [9] That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not. [12] But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. [13] Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [15] John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

please read the rest,it might make your day…

 

[arthra]

Door mouse wrote:
*
i dont need to do any more investigating thank you…*

I think it’s great doormouse that you’ve found so much in your faith. No one is asking you to change it. We’re Baha’is you’re Catholic.

 

[doormouse73]

Door mouse wrote:
*
i dont need to do any more investigating thank you…*

I think it’s great doormouse that you’ve found so much in your faith. No one is asking you to change it. We’re Baha’is you’re Catholic.

then why dont you investigate with thelink to the bible ive given you and see if you can find God in there?

or have you stopped you investigating now?

if so why do the bahais kep putting up links every post in multitudes and keep drumming on about educating your self with it?

you will not get this bird in the palm of you hand MR thats for sure.

is it a recruitment drive you are all on?

because you dont seem to be doing your home work from our questions only you seem to play deaf at those questions or even dumb…

but keep harping on about understanding you.read this,read that…

any way ,each to there own and always remember this… God sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ…

 

[doormouse73]

could one of the bahais answer me this question…

do you consider the Koran the word of god and Muhammad to be a prophet?

 

[Nick44]

could one of the bahais answer me this question…

do you consider the Koran the word of god and Muhammad to be a prophet?

Yes to both.

 

[doormouse73]

Yes to both.

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

an you say that this man is a prophet and the koran is the word of God…

after he has spoken lies about what God didnt tell him?

 

[Lochias]

Please, stay around as long as you like. Baha’u’llah instructs His followers to “Unloose your tongues and proclaim unceasingly His cause.” So, we do, but it is always offered as a gift, and if the gift is refused we pray for the ones that refuse it and leave them to themselves. We understand where you are coming from because most of us were previously in the exact same mind-set. Anything ‘new’ is always resisted, even ridiculed, especially in religious thought and interpretation. The beauty of this age is that information is readily available. Nothing is hidden; it’s available to all. Will you look?

No, anything false is resisted. As you say, in this age information is readily available…that means you need to be exceedingly careful. You’ve got access to the truth here, but it’s patently clear you’re not interested in that, just trying to get more folks in to what is, objectively, a lesser religion led by a man with no given authority whatsoever.

I’ll pass on the McD’s burgers…I’m already eating the most sumptuous steak imaginable.

 

[arthra]

could one of the bahais answer me this question…

do you consider the Koran the word of god and Muhammad to be a prophet?

Yes we do!

 

[arthra]

Regarding al-Tabari we have no official position. He lived a few hundred years after the Hijra and collected traditions…

Baha’is generally accept the Shiah perspective on early Islam.

Most traditions collected after a few hundred years should be regarded with some healthy skepticism as they are verbally transmitted but the ones we accept are those cited by our Writings…

Also it should be noted that verbal traditions attributed to Baha’u’llah, the Bab or Abdul-Baha do not have the weight of authority among us that a documented writing has…

 

[eddie_too]

do the bahais have a doctrine of atonement?

if they do, i would be interested in what it is.

 

[arthra]

do the bahais have a doctrine of atonement?

if they do, i would be interested in what it is.

Good question Eddie…

As to a doctrine… I don’t think you would find it like a theological doctrine as among Christians because you have various church doctrines that are formally accepted but it is mentioned:

Likewise the Holy Manifestations, especially the reality of the Greatest Name, the Beauty of ABHA, when unveiled amid the assemblage of the world, like unto Joseph of Canaan, in the divine Egypt, will appear with such Beauty and Sweetness as to make the lovers of the world His captives. As to the souls who are born into this world radiant entities and who through excessive difficulty are deprived of great benefits and thus leave the world – they are worthy of all sympathy, for in reality this is worthy of regret. It is for this purpose (that is, it is with regard to this wisdom) that the great Manifestations (of God) unveil themselves in this world, bear every difficulty and ordeal – to make these ready souls dawnings of light and confer upon them eternal life. This is the real atonement that His holiness Christ made-He sacrificed Himself for the life of the world.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v3, p. 542)

"… The Bahá’ís, in spite of their self-sacrificing desire to give the last drop of their strength to serving the Cause, must guard against utterly depleting their forces and having breakdowns. For this can sometimes do more harm than good, because they are so bound up in the lives of others… "

There is no doubt that there is vicarious atonement for others, and our sufferings sometimes can be in the nature of a sacrifice accepted for others. But where to draw the line is a mystery. If you take better care of your own health, and build up your reserves, it would certainly be better for you and for your work. Then your sensitive, yearning heart, although you may still often suffer for and with others, will be better able to withstand its trials, and you will not get so exhausted, which is certainly no asset to your work for the Cause."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 25, 1949) 280
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 279)

 

[SteveVH]

Steve wrote above:

*It occurs to me that the Baha’i faith grew out of Islam which also rejects the resurrection (and even the crucifixion). Will you admit at least some Islamic bias here when attempting to interpret Christian Scripture which leads to the Baha’i conclusion that Jesus was resurrected, but only spiritually? *

As you know our Faith recognizes the crucifixion and spiritual resurrection of Jesus…

The verse in the Qur’an we see as not denying the crucifixion…in the following manner:

Qur’an elsewhere says the Martyrs should not be seen as “dead” or killed…

And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive,** but you perceive [it] not.**

Surih 2:154

The same has been said about Christian martyrs…

…most Muslims maintain that Jesus was not crucified, but one who looked like Him was instead, based on their understanding of Qur’án 4:157:

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, **but so it was made to appear to them, **and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

…

Shoghi Effendi, however, states that the Qur’ánic passage indicates that the spiritual reality of Christ was beyond crucifixion, not that His body escaped such a fate

(Lights of Guidance, 1646, 1652, 1669); this resolves an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. "

Abdul-Baha though also commented on the Qur’anic verse saying the the Spirit of Christ could not be crucified and that those who crucified Him were hoping they had killed His Cause… The disciples later rallied and understood that the martrydom of Jesus was not the end and that the Cause of Christ was “resurrected” spiritually:

“We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.”

9 October 1947 to an individual believer

And I take it that the Quran supersedes the Bible in your interpretation of Christian Scripture, as evidenced above. In other words, the sacred texts of Christian Scripture are read through Islamic tinted glasses with the presupposition that the Christian understanding cannot be correct because of what is said in the Quran.

How do you explain that the earliest Church, before the New Testament was even written, before its words were interpreted, believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus? These words were spoken to the Church by those who had witnessed it. It was never a matter of interpretation. It was a foundational doctrine from the beginning. Any scholarly undertaking must consider what those closest to the source believed. This does not appear to have been done by those in the Baha’i faith when it comes to Christianity.

 

[daler]

am i the only one who finds it strange to believe that a spirit ate food with the apostles and that the apostles laid their hands on a spirit?

such a belief seems to beg the definition of spirit. i always thought a spirit was a non-physical being. how does a non-physical being consume food? how can a physical being physically touch a spirit?

the bab’s understanding of Jesus and the New Testament does not account for Jesus eating real food and being really touched by the physical apostles.

why believe the bab and what he taught? his teachings contain so much that is not true, or is not supported by facts.

Eddie,
. We are very familiar with what was written, and well aware of what you are saying. However you want to look at it, nowhere does it say that Thomas actually “touched” Jesus. Please research that part. Hold onto the rest of what you say, but go and read all of the accounts about that aspect of it. Ok?

. When Baha’is speak of looking for metaphorical meanings in this, we look at a broader picture, such as “Who?” is the “body” of Christ? Clearly the “believers” are often referred to as the “body of Christ”.

. Now when His spirit entered the room and the believers were animated by that Holy Spirit, the “Body of Christ” was a tangible reality, both physically and spiritually. Some of us look past the outward story, and most of us here came from Christian background and were raised on very similar understanding as your own. I personally wrestled with this same stuff emotionally as you are now.

. So please, if you can for awhile, set aside emotions when looking at what Baha’is are actually saying. There is a long, a very long, tradition of story telling in the Middle East which employs metaphorical language. The staff of Moses was His argument which won out over the arguments of Pharaoh’s magicians, as their staff went this way and that in the face of His logic and authority, which came from God.

. Calm down, brother. We’ll always be here if you need to rail at us, but try to calm down. You can hate us all you want, hate the Bab, hate Baha’u’llah, or whatever you need to do to settle your emotional turmoil, but please understand what is happening has this effect upon people. Look at the fanaticism in the Middle East. Its all over religion. It gets people’s emotions going, but the best way to deal with those emotions is to set them aside when studying different views people hold, rather than taking up the sword of the tongue and espousing hate.

Peace and God bless, brother

Dale