BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Lochias]

Eddie,
. We are very familiar with what was written, and well aware of what you are saying. However you want to look at it, nowhere does it say that Thomas actually “touched” Jesus.
Dale

…yes, he did. Yes, it does. He put his hands into the hole in Jesus’s side. That totally happened.

4Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”o 26Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”p 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.” 28* q Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Thomas’s answer was to feel the wounds of Christ, at which point he believed. There would be zero point to the author even having included Jesus’s invitation if Thomas didn’t accept and do it. That’s logic, which your leader is apparently somewhat lacking in.

 

[daler]

Thank you daler. So, in your own words, would you say that the Baha’i position is that one is saved through education?

"the sole purpose underlying their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High."

Does the passion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ have anything to do with our salvation within the Baha’i belief system?

Steve,
. You can gain a spiritual education as well as a material education. Einstein provided us with a material education. Jesus brought a spiritual education. He taught people who their brothers and sisters were. He spoke of those who do the will of the Father as being His followers. He was a Divine Educator.

. Our salvation is gained by turning our gaze to those Whom God has sent to throw us the lifeline, as from the three boats and a helicopter scenario. Jesus rebuked the Jews who were proud of building tombs for the Prophets whom they killed.

. All Baha’is believe in the passion, death, and spiritual resurrection of Christ. Even Muslims who become Baha’is believe in Christ, as well as Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists. If you truly wish to understand the Baha’i belief system, you might study in greater depth the widely available texts. They are online. Maybe read Some Answered Questions by Abdul Baha, or Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah. Thats up to you. It might be helpful, however, in discussion with Baha’is concerning their beliefs.

 

[doormouse73]

Eddie,
. We are very familiar with what was written, and well aware of what you are saying. However you want to look at it, nowhere does it say that Thomas actually “touched” Jesus. Please research that part. Hold onto the rest of what you say, but go and read all of the accounts about that aspect of it. Ok?

. When Baha’is speak of looking for metaphorical meanings in this, we look at a broader picture, such as “Who?” is the “body” of Christ? Clearly the “believers” are often referred to as the “body of Christ”.

. Now when His spirit entered the room and the believers were animated by that Holy Spirit, the “Body of Christ” was a tangible reality, both physically and spiritually. Some of us look past the outward story, and most of us here came from Christian background and were raised on very similar understanding as your own. I personally wrestled with this same stuff emotionally as you are now.

. So please, if you can for awhile, set aside emotions when looking at what Baha’is are actually saying. There is a long, a very long, tradition of story telling in the Middle East which employs metaphorical language. The staff of Moses was His argument which won out over the arguments of Pharaoh’s magicians, as their staff went this way and that in the face of His logic and authority, which came from God.

. Calm down, brother. We’ll always be here if you need to rail at us, but try to calm down. You can hate us all you want, hate the Bab, hate Baha’u’llah, or whatever you need to do to settle your emotional turmoil, but please understand what is happening has this effect upon people. Look at the fanaticism in the Middle East. Its all over religion. It gets people’s emotions going, but the best way to deal with those emotions is to set them aside when studying different views people hold, rather than taking up the sword of the tongue and espousing hate.

Peace and God bless, brother

Dale/QUOTE

Loll why are playing the victim card in the end of your post? Nobody has ever entioned the word hate. You like playing the victim , you played a similar card with lochias saying he would scare you if you met him, that he was to go away. Don’t you like people who won’t agree with you and show you the truth?

 

[daler]

But daler, Christ’s physical resurrection from the grave is everything to Christianity. Look outside of the Biblical texts. Look to the writing of the first Christians. The Church believed this before the sacred texts of the New Testament were even written because this truth came from the Apostles who were witnesses to the resurrection. Has this fact ever been taken into consideration? Could the Church have been this misled from the beginning?

It occurs to me that the Baha’i faith grew out of Islam which also rejects the resurrection (and even the crucifixion). Will you admit at least some Islamic bias here when attempting to interpret Christian Scripture which leads to the Baha’i conclusion that Jesus was resurrected, but only spiritually?

Steve,
. Thank you for expressing what your concerns are. I realize what you are saying and that it appears to call into question those interpretations which have long been held as literal, for those are the “obvious” meanings. We are quite well aware of all of that. As I say, most of us Baha’is talking on this thread were Christian. At least one was Catholic.

. The Baha’i Faith is independent of Islam, even as Islam is independent of Christianity, even as Christianity is independent of Judaism. All of them, however, are connected. If you ever read the Quran, for example, you will find that about 80 or 90 % of it is directly reiterating all that the previous Prophets of the Old Testament and Jesus were speaking of.

. An important consideration is that the Source of all of the Prophets speaks through Them, as the source of many artesian wells supplies the water at different places and times. It is the same principal.

. “All of the Prophets (of God) proclaim the same Faith.” Baha’u’llah said.

 

[daler]

…yes, he did. Yes, it does. He put his hands into the hole in Jesus’s side. That totally happened.

4Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”o 26Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.”p 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.” 28* q Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Thomas’s answer was to feel the wounds of Christ, at which point he believed. There would be zero point to the author even having included Jesus’s invitation if Thomas didn’t accept and do it. That’s logic, which your leader is apparently somewhat lacking in.

Lochias,
. Thank you for posting the quote. As you will note, it does not say that Thomas touched Him, does it. Thank you for this.

. The difficulty here is first of all that “He entered the room, not using the door.” He also exited the room, not using the door. After forty days, He disappeared, as in a cloud.

. “After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes,
and a cloud hid him from their sight.”

Elijah also was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Are these figurative accounts, or literal? What is it that is being described? Are physical bodies ascending into outer space? If so, where exactly? Might the Hubble get a view of them?

Baha’is maintain that the “Spirit” which entered the room is the same Spirit which enters the room “Wherever two or three gather and make mention of Me, there am I also”.

. We believe that He lives independent of the physical body even though the description of eating the fish etc is generally interpreted literally by such as yourself. This is the common view held. We understand this.

. One of the tests of whether someone is a follower of Christ is that he shows love to his enemies. Hatred is not an evidence of belief in Christ. It is only a display of power not born of His Spirit.

 

[eddie_too]

one thing that is evident from this thread is that if nothing else, becoming bahai tends to make people condescend toward other people.

personally, i find this condescension to be very offputting as well as an indication that whatever causes it is to be avoided.

i wonder if the founder of bahai was so condescending to other people?

he may well have been since it is quite prevalent in his followers. they learned it from someone.

what possesses a bahai to write as though they know another person’s emotions and thoughts? such an attitude or belief is the height of condescension; go back through this thread and count how many times a bahai has written in a condescending manner and maybe you will get my point.

i do understand how a person might seek condescension as a defense for their lack of facts, logic and reason when discussing a subject, maybe that explains the condescension being expressed by the bahais.

another interesting aspect of bahaiism is the idea that introducing still another “divine” teaching in to the world is a tactic for uniting the world.

i

 

[daler]

daler;11187564:

Dale

Nobody is playing the victim card here. We see emotional activity which is evidence of an excited emotional state. There are customary ways of discussion which transcend emotionalism.

Saul was filled with hate and emotion, attacking Christians, certain of his credentials.
He was “scary”. This is true. He participated in the stoning of Stephen. Saul was a scary guy, a fanatic.

Only when He had gone on the road to Damascus was his hate filled heart turned towards Christ. Prior to that, his behavior was all emotional. After that, he was able to say:

“Come, let us reason together.”

 

[eddie_too]

for the bahai, where and when did the followers of Christ begin teaching that He had risen from the grave?

why do you think that over 1800 years after the resurrection, it was necessary to reinterpret the scriptures? and further, why would you believe this new interpretation was the correct interpretation? why would you contradict the people who were there and witnessed the risen Lord said was clearly misunderstood by everyone who they met.

there is NOTHING in christian teaching, literature or history to indicate that Jesus did not rise bodily.

but, lo and behold, some guy, 1800 years after the fact, says that the previous millions of people, including those who were there, got it wrong and the gullible jump on that and go yeah, everybody, including the people there, got it wrong.

why believe they go it wrong? well, otherwise our guy cannot be sent by God; and, we would have to worship Jesus. it is so mormon like.

i understand you do not have faith in Christ, the Incarnate Word.

 

[daler]

one thing that is evident from this thread is that if nothing else, becoming bahai tends to make people condescend toward other people.

personally, i find this condescension to be very offputting as well as an indication that whatever causes it is to be avoided.

i wonder if the founder of bahai was so condescending to other people?

he may well have been since it is quite prevalent in his followers. they learned it from someone.

what possesses a bahai to write as though they know another person’s emotions and thoughts? such an attitude or belief is the height of condescension; go back through this thread and count how many times a bahai has written in a condescending manner and maybe you will get my point.

i do understand how a person might seek condescension as a defense for their lack of facts, logic and reason when discussing a subject, maybe that explains the condescension being expressed by the bahais.

another interesting aspect of bahaiism is the idea that introducing still another “divine” teaching in to the world is a tactic for uniting the world.

i

Eddie,
. All we can pick up from reading texts and posts is what is apparent in them. Tone is not there to be heard, nor facial expressions. I there is some degree of “projection” going on here. If there is any condescension, it is not a virtue, from any position.

 

[Lochias]

Lochias,
. Thank you for posting the quote. As you will note, it does not say that Thomas touched Him, does it. Thank you for this.

. The difficulty here is first of all that “He entered the room, not using the door.” He also exited the room, not using the door. After forty days, He disappeared, as in a cloud.

. “After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes,
and a cloud hid him from their sight.”

Elijah also was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Are these figurative accounts, or literal? What is it that is being described? Are physical bodies ascending into outer space? If so, where exactly? Might the Hubble get a view of them?

Baha’is maintain that the “Spirit” which entered the room is the same Spirit which enters the room “Wherever two or three gather and make mention of Me, there am I also”.

. We believe that He lives independent of the physical body even though the description of eating the fish etc is generally interpreted literally by such as yourself. This is the common view held. We understand this.

. One of the tests of whether someone is a follower of Christ is that he shows love to his enemies. Hatred is not an evidence of belief in Christ. It is only a display of power not born of His Spirit.

Nope, sorry. You’ve thrown logic right out of the window. Ding-dong, you’re wrong. Thomas’s answer was to touch the wounds of Christ. Note, it says Thomas answered, THEN he spoke. There is no other answer that would be logical within context.

Keep trying.

EDIT: And, for the record, I don’t hate you or anyone; you can stop being so melodramatic. It’s unbecoming. Frankly, if I were to hate anyone, it would be someone more worthy of that hate than yourself. This whole exchange has been dryly amusing to me, in the way that watching a kid try to learn how to ride a bike without training wheels is.

How many times you gonna fall off that bike before you get it, I wonder?

 

[Lochias]

If there is any condescension, it is not a virtue, from any position.

Awesome…you can put a stop to it, then, and we might start to take you a tad more seriously.

 

[PRmerger]

PR,
. My friend, I think that you are injecting much speculation here that is unwarranted.

Have you not been speculating, daler, when you say that perhaps some of Jesus’ disciples were able to steal the body from under the noses of the Roman guards?

Why do you get to speculate, yet object to (perceived) speculation in others?

No one really “knows” what happened to the body of Jesus, but we are certainly aware of people attesting to their “belief” in His physical resurrection.

This is an assertion on your part.

However, Christians do not subscribe to the above.

We do indeed proclaim that we “know” what happened to the body of Jesus.

I fully respect your right to believe in the literal interpretation of events, for the story is indeed told in such a way as to lead one in that direction. It is the “obvious” way of looking at it.

I suppose I could say that it is your right to believe in the literal interpretation that your holy prophet was executed.

Perhaps he was merely pretending to be shot?

Perhaps he also was not literally removed from the tomb by his followers?

No one can say for certain what motives would exist in the minds of His disciples “if” they actually recovered His body, but I certainly would not want to suggest that it was for some slight of hand.

There can not be any other reason, save for deceit.

And it would be curious for you to believe that Christianity is a respectable religion, if it is based on the deceit of the first followers.

 

[PRmerger]

there is NOTHING in christian teaching, literature or history to indicate that Jesus did not rise bodily.

but, lo and behold, some guy, 1800 years after the fact, says that the previous millions of people, including those who were there, got it wrong and the gullible jump on that and go yeah, everybody, including the people there, got it wrong.

why believe they go it wrong?

Exactly.

 

[PRmerger]

PR,
. The remark about people following blindly their inherited faith is a general statement applicable to anyone, including Baha’is who simply follow along their parent’s faith, for example, and not coming to their own genuine understanding.

It is an inutile statement, daler.

It is as if I kept saying, “Dear Baha’is, please remember that it is always wrong to rape women!”

And when you say, “Dear PR, why do you keep saying that. No Baha’i believes it is good to rape women. And I have never seen anyone profess here anything at all about rape”…

I respond with, “It is simply a general statement applicable to anyone, Catholics included. No one ought to be raping women!”

Ok. But to keep saying so serves no purpose on this thread.

It is something to which we already agree: no one ought to be raping women.

There is no need to keep repeating it, even if it applies to Catholics as well as Baha’is.

 

[PRmerger]

I fully respect your right to believe in the literal interpretation of events, for the story is indeed told in such a way as to lead one in that direction.

How would you respond if I said, “daler, I certainly respect your right to believe in the literal interpretation of the execution of ‘Mona and the children’. But I believe that it was merely a myth, a story made up by beautiful and loving Baha’i adherents who wanted to show a story about how holy some women and children could be.”

No disrespect meant to their memory.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. Thank you for expressing what your concerns are. I realize what you are saying and that it appears to call into question those interpretations which have long been held as literal, for those are the “obvious” meanings. We are quite well aware of all of that. As I say, most of us Baha’is talking on this thread were Christian. At least one was Catholic.

. The Baha’i Faith is independent of Islam, even as Islam is independent of Christianity, even as Christianity is independent of Judaism. All of them, however, are connected. If you ever read the Quran, for example, you will find that about 80 or 90 % of it is directly reiterating all that the previous Prophets of the Old Testament and Jesus were speaking of.

. An important consideration is that the Source of all of the Prophets speaks through Them, as the source of many artesian wells supplies the water at different places and times. It is the same principal.

. “All of the Prophets (of God) proclaim the same Faith.” Baha’u’llah said.

You miss my point. The Church does not believe in Christ’s resurrection because it interpreted some writing long ago. This came directly from the Apostles, the first leaders of our Church, from their mouths, and has remained in his Church through the centuries until today. The Bible is nothing more than a supporting document that came much later. Yes, you have no choice but to interpret words since you will not listen to the Church’s own voice on this matter.

But you should read what the early Church Fathers believed, from the first century, on. Some of these were contemporaries of the Apostles, or were their students, or one or two generations removed. They believed it because it happened to them or to those to whom they were very close. You must remember that the Catholic Church is not a Church of the Book, it is the Church of the Apostles. Do you understand how important this is?

Yours is a very modern religion which borrows from all others as it has no tradition of its own. You are reading ancient texts from a modern perspective which is already colored by your preconceived notions as to the Truth. And you are missing it.

The Catholic Church was built upon those very people who had witnessed the resurrected Christ. In fact, that was a requirement in being an Apostle which is one of the reasons they chose Mathias to replace Judas. The entire Church was built on the basis that Christ had truly risen, body and soul, and that we would too if we followed him. That is the Good News. That is the Gospel.

 

[daler]

There can not be any other reason, save for deceit.

And it would be curious for you to believe that Christianity is a respectable religion, if it is based on the deceit of the first followers.

PR It is said that there was an earthquake and that the stone rolled away. If this was the case, that could have been a reason. All of this is beside the point. If it is unacceptable to ask questions and use reason and logic in an approach to religion, we are left with just nodding our heads.

To say “there can be no other reason, save for deceit” sets aside some very “reasonable” reasons. There are two marked grave sites for Sitting Bull that I am aware of. His body is not buried in either one of them. The family of Crazy Horse also took his body away to an unknown spot to keep the whites from carting his bones off to a museum.

 

[arthra]

And** I take it that the Quran supersedes the Bible in your interpretation of Christian Scripture,** as evidenced above. In other words, the sacred texts of Christian Scripture are read through Islamic tinted glasses with the presupposition that the Christian understanding cannot be correct because of what is said in the Quran.

How do you explain that the earliest Church, before the New Testament was even written, before its words were interpreted, believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus? These words were spoken to the Church by those who had witnessed it. It was never a matter of interpretation. It was a foundational doctrine from the beginning. Any scholarly undertaking must consider what those closest to the source believed. This does not appear to have been done by those in the Baha’i faith when it comes to Christianity.

The following is my own personal response to Steve…

I can explain why we feel the Qur’an is an authentic revelation…because it was directly set down after revelation and recited in the language it was revealed in.

Unfortunately we don’t have that with Gospels… Yes they were inspired we believe but are not necessarily accurate…nor are they in the language that Jesus taught…which would have been Aramaic. So translating the original Aramaic oral tradition to Greek is a great leap.

As to the resurrection accounts they vary depending…overall we see them as symbolic or spiritual because ancient people believed in visions as literal events sometimes…

If you consider the Mount of Transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mount with Jesus to the closest disciples of Jesus … are we asked to accept that Moses and Elijah had to be physically present? I don’t think so.

Over a thousand years yes the beliefs of the church have been recited repeatedly… in creedal form. Are they ancient beliefs? Yes they are… It seems more emphasis has been placed on the creeds than on the surviving teachings of Jesus.

 

[daler]

You miss my point. The Church does not believe in Christ’s resurrection because it interpreted some writing long ago. This came directly from the Apostles, the first leaders of our Church, from their mouths, and has remained in his Church through the centuries until today. The Bible is nothing more than a supporting document that came much later. Yes, you have no choice but to interpret words since you will not listen to the Church’s own voice on this matter. .

Steve,
. The Jewish traditions were similarly handed down, were they not? Is it wrong for someone 3000 years later to question whether it was literal or metaphorical the stories of manna descending from heaven or Jonah being swallowed by a great fish?

. I grew up being told all of these stories were literal. I was also told that Santa Claus came through the chimney when we didn’t even have one, that the Tooth Fairy left me a dime under my pillow in exchange for a tooth, and that the earth was only 6000 years old. Then I was sent to school to study science, geology, and mathematics, expected to get A’s (cause mom was a teacher), and go back to Sunday school and repeat these old stories without my brain exploding.
. To top that off, I was told to love my enemies until it was time to go kill the gooks in Viet Nam and the whole thing started to unravel. My personal friends in Wounded Knee are descended from the few survivors who weren’t massacred, who were rounded up and taken to a church in Pine Ridge where, posted right over the cross, was a sign that said “Peace on earth, good will to men.”
. Oh, and the reason they live on the reservation is because somebody signed a piece of paper written “In the year of our Lord, 1868” at Fort Laramie because the buffalo were hunted to extinction in part of a campaign of genocide. Then, my same friends were beaten, locked up, and deprived of food by the folks at the Mission school. They, too, were told to reject their own “superstitious” beliefs and accept a new set, which they were not allowed to question.

All I am saying is that God gave me a brain and when I use it to raise reasonable questions, I am being told I’m going to hell. That really affects my perception of those who insist upon my reliance upon such things as are consistent with ancient story-telling traditions which, to me, make much more sense to my rational mind when a little leeway is allowed for logical use of my mind.

. And when the same folks telling me this say "Well, the Muslims have been wrong for 1400 years, the Hindus for 5000, years, and the Jews on much of their beliefs for 3 or 4000 years, but “our guys” are right for the past 2000, and they’re the only one’s right, while all the others are wrong.

No offense intended here, Steve. Just laying it out as it is. I hope that this is ok. Is it? Is it ok for my Indian friends to finally ask these questions? Is it Ok for my Buddhist friends to ask a question in class? How about a Baha’i? or a Muslim? I can tell you this. That in Iran, the Baha’is are going to jail, losing their jobs, and still getting killed for “daring” to ask questions and oppose the equivalent of the Pharisees, i.e., the mullahs, and paying a very, very heavy price for it. They are going through exactly what the early Christians went through…

 

[PRmerger]

PR It is said that there was an earthquake and that the stone rolled away. If this was the case, that could have been a reason.

What reason is that? And then why would they go about proclaiming a literal resurrection, knowing that it was only a spiritual one?

Remember, there is no Apostolic testimony which declared that Jesus had not really died, and that His body was in their hands.

If it is unacceptable to ask questions and use reason and logic in an approach to religion, we are left with just nodding our heads.

Right.

You are the one who said that speculation is not warranted, right?

So it is curious that you are now saying that we must speculate.

Which is your position again? That we must speculate? Or that we cannot?

To say “there can be no other reason, save for deceit” sets aside some very “reasonable” reasons.

So, again, what could be the reasons the disciples would steal away the Lord’s body, and then proclaim a literal resurrection?