BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[daler]

That’s what they say, of course.

But you don’t really know, do you?

I am quite confident that in terms of verifiable accuracy the accounts are quite comparable.

You have spoken to not a single person who saw this execution. Right?

It was witnessed by approximately 10,000 spectators, including diplomats of many nations, and is very well known to historians. It is as certain as the Civil War accounts. Do you also doubt the Civil War? My great grandfather had his goiter shot off by a revel soldier. My father, born in 1905, who passed in 2005, knew his grandfather. I knew my father.

This type of senseless talk is unworthy of discussion and can no longer be taken seriously, for independent verification is available to anyone who truly desires it. It serves only to highlight the lack of seriousness of those who defy reality, which appears to be the goal here.

God bless

 

[daler]

With all due respect, it’s irrelevant what kind of community transformation is occurring, if the foundation isn’t proclaiming truth.

There are millions of children each and every December (let’s make this billions) who are transformed from naughty little ones to angelic children, all based on the rather false idea that a jolly old man in a white suit is watching them and basing their Christmas gift on their behavior.

That they have been transformed is secondary to the fact that they are following a lie, right?

To put it into time perspective, my best friend was an African American who, as a child, knew his grandmother, who had been born into slavery.

Another friend of mine also knew her grandparents born into slavery.

I have a friend who was a victim of the Holocaust, imprisoned in Auschwitz, and the father of another friend of mine who helped to liberate Birkenau

Honestly PR, you are beginning to sound like a Holocaust denier…

Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well we’ll make a modest start here on this forum by mentioning Baha’u’llah…

It’s true we’re “Insignificant” on the stage of world religions…at least for now, so consider your self fortunate to be conversing with so few!

You may like to browse some of the appreciations of the Faith here:

bahaitributes.wordpress.com/page/2/

As to whether Baha’u’llah was ineffective or not for a prisoner in a Turkish penal colony and sometimes on death row in the Siyyah Chal and an exile from His native land He made an impact that is still being felt today and will be around for a long time to come!

For brief thumbnail sketch of His life see:

bahaullah.org/

Uh…no.

But you’re right…we are giving you an excellent platform for spreading your message.

I suspect that you folks have been on the phone or Internet with one another calling in reinforcements, so to speak.

Otherwise, what are the odds that so many of your tiny group would coincidentally appear here?

But you avoided my question. Why was the “Manifestation of God” so ineffective at getting the message out?

Christ turned the world upside down and He didn’t have the Internet.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Really, Randy? 6M+ people are followers of Baha’u’llah around the world, coming from all religious backgrounds, colors, tribes and nationalities and all now united in belief and purpose. We are only 121 years since Baha’u’llah’s passing and I would say that the growth and influence of the Faith has been quite remarkable. To a Jew living in a comparable time frame, 121 years after the crucifiction, they might look around and think there wasn’t really much going on with that Christian thing. Look at the difference today!

As I just posted above, the Internet did not exist in Jesus’ day. Nor did other means of modern communication. So, I’d actually expect more of Baha’u’llah. Like I said, God must be mightily disappointed at how little has actually been accomplished.

 

[Servant19]

Uh…no.

But you’re right…we are giving you an excellent platform for spreading your message.

I suspect that you folks have been on the phone or Internet with one another calling in reinforcements, so to speak.

Otherwise, what are the odds that so many of your tiny group would coincidentally appear here?

But you avoided my question. Why was the “Manifestation of God” so ineffective at getting the message out?

Christ turned the world upside down and He didn’t have the Internet.

With respect Randy, this type of sinister post is unhealthy for effective dialogue, it puts into question the Bahai motives and you have not even looked at the past 2 Bahai threads to realize that pretty much all the Baha’is have been here from the start.

No need to assume sneakiness and behind the back rallying from our part.

Let us reason together like adults please

 

[Servant19]

As I just posted above, the Internet did not exist in Jesus’ day. Nor did other means of modern communication. So, I’d actually expect more of Baha’u’llah. Like I said, God must be mightily disappointed at how little has actually been accomplished.

There was no Internet in the 1800s either Randy

The Faith of God is called a faith for a reason, its not an extravaganza magic show denying everyone their free will and we all fall to our knees and say “Hallelujah I believe!!”

The Kingdom of God on earth will not be built without some serious soul searching and investigating that everything that is being revealed by God, in Baha’u’llahs Person and Word is of incredible value for humanity in this age.

I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say there is not one area of the Bahai Revelation that is not pricelessly invaluable

 

[daler]

Uh…no.

But you’re right…we are giving you an excellent platform for spreading your message.

I suspect that you folks have been on the phone or Internet with one another calling in reinforcements, so to speak.

Otherwise, what are the odds that so many of your tiny group would coincidentally appear here?

But you avoided my question. Why was the “Manifestation of God” so ineffective at getting the message out?

Christ turned the world upside down and He didn’t have the Internet.

Randy,
. Your statements betray your heart, friend. No religion on earth has spread so rapidly, nor have the means by which it is to spread been created by chance.

. The religion of Christ Jesus was spread from soul to soul and took 1800 years to encircle the globe. Indeed, this is one of the conditions He gave to His disciples for His second coming when asked, “When shall these things be?” To which Jesus answered:

“And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.” Mark 13:10

. By numerous accounts from many sources the Gospel of Jesus Christ had been spread to all nations by the middle of the 19th century.

. As a matter of faith, the followers of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were all told to spread the good news of the religion of God at each successive stage. It is in fact incumbent upon all who believe in God to confess their faith before others. It has always been so, and is now.

. Paul was given a platform in Athens and elsewhere, was he not? If it be the will of God that the religion of God be given a platform, it will be.

 

[PRmerger]

Falsehood will not create positive change, and most certainly not over 150 years. God would not have it any other way…

Really? You haven’t seen the positive change in children who believe they’re being watched by a jolly old man in a red suit?

 

[PRmerger]

So you’re denying newspaper articles, a Cambridge orientalists array of historical books dedicated to the Bahai events, numerous Ambassadors records, all ready for you to look through in several major city libraries in the world?

And you call yourself a scientist???

Oh, I’m not denying newspaper articles. Or that something happened.

I’m just saying that your literal interpretations of the events are what are mistaken.

In other words…

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...Q0f-M99Uv7zlcnu_1n-gS3Kr2g6Ta24njGf6yj4WYe7CH

 

[PRmerger]

This type of senseless talk is unworthy of discussion and can no longer be taken seriously, for independent verification is available to anyone who truly desires it. It serves only to highlight the lack of seriousness of those who defy reality, which appears to be the goal here.

God bless

Are you talking about the Resurrection of Christ in the above comment?

 

[PRmerger]

Honestly PR, you are beginning to sound like a Holocaust denier…

Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?

And I think your profession that there was no literal physical resurrection of Christ makes you sound like a Holocaust denier.

 

[PRmerger]

You know, dear Baha’i folks, I must say that when I proposed the exact thing which you have proposed, you all did not react with the same grace and genuine spirit of dialogue that we Catholics have.

You have been proposing here for months that a literal understanding of Christ’s resurrection did not occur.

We Catholics have indulged this discourse with grace and charity.

Now, within just hours of my positing the exact same concept, this dialogue has degenerated into ad hominems and a distinctive lack of grace on your part.

Why do you not accept that it’s possible that you have erroneously applied a literal interpretation to the events of your holy leaders, while in the same breath proclaiming that Christians have erroneously applied a literal interpretation to the event?

 

[Nick44]

As I just posted above, the Internet did not exist in Jesus’ day. Nor did other means of modern communication. So, I’d actually expect more of Baha’u’llah. Like I said, God must be mightily disappointed at how little has actually been accomplished.

The internet has been most helpful in bringing the knowledge of the Baha’i Faith to many people and is a great tool in bringing unity among mankind. Granted, our numbers remain small compared with established faith traditions, but many, many, people are putting Baha’i principles into practice, many never having even heard the name Baha’u’llah. God works as He will.

Sadly, the ‘fastest’ growing ‘religion’ at the moment appears to be that of no belief in God at all. Atheists and agnostics are increasing at an alarming rate. Baha’u’llah Himself predicted this: “The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it?” (Gleanings pg 200)

 

[arthra]

Uh…no.

But you’re right…we are giving you an excellent platform for spreading your message.

I suspect that you folks have been on the phone or Internet with one another calling in reinforcements, so to speak.

Otherwise, what are the odds that so many of your tiny group would coincidentally appear here?

But you avoided my question. Why was the “Manifestation of God” so ineffective at getting the message out?

Christ turned the world upside down and He didn’t have the Internet.

Well Randy believe it or not I’ve been on this Forum for about ten years and usually only post if someone has questions about the Baha’i Faith… so there is no widespread conspiracy and I’ve asked no one posting here to join in…being in a “tiny group” I know a few of the posters here from another forum but never asked them to join.

Christ did turn the world upside down I agree and so did Prophet Muhammad…

You’d have to consider that our Faith is still fairly recent especially by historical standards…

There are probably Baha’is to day in most countries of the globe in 190 countries that live in oh 127,000 localities… with over eleven thousand Local Spiritual Assemblies and 182 National Spiritual Assemblies…Ive seen various estimates for Baha’i populations. Some countries do not recognize the Faith such as say Saudi Arabia or Iran.

So it is a movement that has virtually circled the globe… What effects all this will have is yet to be told… If you consider that our principles are today widely accepted I think you’d be right… Equality of men and women, world parliament, international court of arbitration and reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty are all principles thatwe espouse… so is the world turning upside down? Maybe so. At least it rotates on it’s axis..

 

[SteveVH]

So you’re denying newspaper articles, a Cambridge orientalists array of historical books dedicated to the Bahai events, numerous Ambassadors records, all ready for you to look through in several major city libraries in the world?

And are you denying the treasury of historical and spiritual writings of the Catholic Church? Are you denying the eye witness testimonies of the Apostles and the writings of Christians from the first century until today? Why is your history more accurate than Christian history? Why is the Christian position up for interpretation while Baha’i position is not?

PR did nothing more than prove the unreasonableness of your position by making the same arguments against the Baha’i account of its prophet that you make against the Christian account of its Savior. Your reaction is that it is ridiculous. And you are correct. History is on the side of the Catholic Church and the consistency of its doctrines, from the beginning, can be proven. It is not off somewhere in the mists of the past. It is well documented and its history has been scrutinized for 2000 years.

 

[Servant19]

Really? You haven’t seen the positive change in children who believe they’re being watched by a jolly old man in a red suit?

Truth eventually prevails PR. I haven’t seen many Santa Claus lovers in their 20’s

The Bahai Faith has been spreading its “new heaven and new earth” gospel for 150 years now, and if it were a blasphemy it would not succeed…if it were to go AGAINST everything that God wanted, it would be declining by now, like all the religions of previous false prophets, not growing like it is…

…same goes for Islam…

 

[Randy_Carson]

With respect Randy, this type of sinister post is unhealthy for effective dialogue, it puts into question the Bahai motives and you have not even looked at the past 2 Bahai threads to realize that pretty much all the Baha’is have been here from the start.

No need to assume sneakiness and behind the back rallying from our part.

Let us reason together like adults please

Fair enough. Let’s reason together.

Earlier I referenced a number of eye-witness accounts found in the New Testament that clearly indicate that Jesus had a physical body after the resurrection.

Luke 24:37-43
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

John 20:26-28
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

If Jesus did not have a physical body (meaning that He was literally raised from the dead), how could He challenge his disciples to touch Him as a means of eliminating their doubt? Why would He ask them to do something that they could not do?

John 20:14-17
14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. 15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”). 17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

How could Jesus say “Do not hold on to me” if He had no physical body for her to hold?

 

[SteveVH]

Truth eventually prevails PR. I haven’t seen many Santa Claus lovers in their 20’s

The Bahai Faith has been spreading its “new heaven and new earth” gospel for 150 years now, and if it were a blasphemy it would not succeed…if it were to go AGAINST everything that God wanted, it would be declining by now, like all the religions of previous false prophets, not growing like it is…

…same goes for Islam…

So what do you say of the Catholic Church which has steadily grown for 2000 years. You have all of 150 years of history, about the same as the Mormons, but I think they are growing much faster than the Baha’i, claiming twice the number of faithful (14,000,000). Shouldn’t the LDS Church “be declining by now, like all the religions of previous false prophets, not growing like it is…”

 

[Randy_Carson]

There was no Internet in the 1800s either Randy

But there is today. And in the 1800’s there were printing presses and telegraphs and steamships and trains for travel. Lots of technology to aid the one spreading the news of God.

The Faith of God is called a faith for a reason, its not an extravaganza magic show denying everyone their free will and we all fall to our knees and say “Hallelujah I believe!!”

True. But one might expect MORE people to have accepted the message of someone who was a “Manifestation of God”, don’t you think? I mean, that sounds like a fairly influential individual.

The Kingdom of God on earth will not be built without some serious soul searching and investigating that everything that is being revealed by God, in Baha’u’llahs Person and Word is of incredible value for humanity in this age.

I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say there is not one area of the Bahai Revelation that is not pricelessly invaluable

I see.

Let me ask this: The Mormons got their start slightly before you, and they have 14 million members worldwide; the Jehovah’s Witnesses began around the same time or slightly before you and they claim over 7 million members. Neither of their founders, Joseph Smith and Charles Taze Russell, respectively, claimed to be a “Manifestation of God.” Smith is considered to be a prophet by Mormons while Russell himself denied any special revelation or authority.

Yet, the movements they founded have grown more quickly the Baha’i faith despite the leadership of Baha’u’llah whom you say was a “Manifestation of God.”

How is it then that Baha’u’llah’s efforts have yielded so little fruit in comparison to the men who were not His manifestations?

And by comparison, early Christianity may have had 6 million adherents as early as A.D. 300 - despite the complete lack of technology for travel and communication, without printing presses, and in the face of withering persecution of the Roman Empire prior to the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313.

Seems to me that Christianity has had the blessing of God guiding its growth as it has spread throughout the world through the centuries.

 

[PRmerger]

Truth eventually prevails PR. I haven’t seen many Santa Claus lovers in their 20’s

This is a nonsequitur, Servant.

You made the argument that good behavior (“community transformation”) must mean that the Baha’i faith is true.

Point made: good behavior may simply mean people are following a falsehood.