BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Nick44]

I’m kinda curious about something. Baha’u’llah was a “Manifestation of God”…“exceptional”, right?

So, how come no one has heard of this holy man? I mean, be honest, your organization is small and relatively insignificant on the stage of world religions.

Numbers don’t mean everything, of course, but if God is trying to get a message out and Baha’u’llah was His messenger, he wasn’t terribly effective, was he?

Really, Randy? 6M+ people are followers of Baha’u’llah around the world, coming from all religious backgrounds, colors, tribes and nationalities and all now united in belief and purpose. We are only 121 years since Baha’u’llah’s passing and I would say that the growth and influence of the Faith has been quite remarkable. To a Jew living in a comparable time frame, 121 years after the crucifiction, they might look around and think there wasn’t really much going on with that Christian thing. Look at the difference today!

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has revealed God’s will for humanity for this age and that everything He promised WILL eventually happen. Our efforts can help speed-up the process but nothing can stop it. It might seem slow but I’d liken it to a fruit tree. You don’t plant a sapling in the morning and pick the fruits that afternoon.

 

[arthra]

Perhaps you are mistakenly literally interpreting the stories about him, and that he truly was not literally, physically in a Turkish penal colony? Rather, he was only mentally imprisoned because he was not able to profess all that he knew and understood?

You could check that out for yourself…I’ve visited the cell where Baha’u’llah was imprisoned in the prison fortress of Akka…but here are the words of Abdul-Baha on the subject:

*When Bahá’u’lláh arrived at 'Akka, through the power of God He was able to hoist His banner. His light at first had been a star; now it became a mighty sun, and the illumination of His Cause expanded from the East to the West. Inside prison walls He wrote Epistles to all the kings and rulers of nations, summoning them to arbitration and universal peace. Some of the kings received His words with disdain and contempt. One of these was the Sultan of the Ottoman kingdom. Napoleon III of France did not reply. A second Epistle was addressed to him. It stated,

**“I have written you an Epistle before this, summoning you to the Cause of God, but you are of the heedless. You have proclaimed that you were the defender of the oppressed; now it hath become evident that you are not. Nor are you kind to your own suffering and oppressed people. Your actions are contrary to your own interests, and your kingly pride must fall. Because of your arrogance God shortly will destroy your sovereignty. France will flee away from you, and you will be overwhelmed by a great conquest. There will be lamentation and mourning, women bemoaning the loss of their sons.” **

This arraignment of Napoleon III was published and spread.

Read it and consider: one prisoner, single and solitary, without assistant or defender, a foreigner and stranger imprisoned in the fortress of 'Akka, writing such letters to the Emperor of France and Sultan of Turkey. Reflect upon this: how Bahá’u’lláh upraised the standard of His Cause in prison. Refer to history. It is without parallel. No such thing has happened before that time nor since–a prisoner and a exile advancing His Cause and spreading His teachings broadcast so that eventually He became powerful enough to conquer the very king who banished Him.

His Cause spread more and more. The Blessed Perfection was a prisoner twenty-five years. During all this time He was subjected to the indignities and revilement of the people. He was persecuted, mocked and put in chains. In Persia His properties were pillaged and His possessions confiscated. First, there was banishment from Persia to Baghdad, then to Constantinople, then to Adrianople, finally from Rumelia to the prison fortress of 'Akka.
*
bahai-library.com/abdulbaha_royal_family_description

 

[SteveVH]

Steve was writing above

“There were not many forms of Christianity, there was the Church and there were heretics.”

I came across a site exploring the varieties among early Christians and would like you to check it out!

Here it is:

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/diversity.html

It probably represents what is the current thinking on the subject in academic circles…

Here is just a little sample of the article:

“The historical reality is probably much more complex. The Christian movement probably began not from a single center but from many different centers where different groups of disciples of Jesus gathered and tried to make sense of what they had experienced with him and what had happened to him at the end of his public ministry. Each of those groups probably had a very different take on what the significance of Jesus was.”

My opinion is that this is probably an opinion with little to no real evidence with which to back it up.

Here is another snippet that I found amusing:

"There were others who we meet again in the Book of Acts, who apparently stood in continuity with the activity of John the Baptist and did not know the baptism that the Pauline Christians, at least, knew. So there was much more diversity in the early stages of the Christian movement than the Book of Acts suggest.

The same author, uses the Book of Acts as her evidence to say that there was much more diversity than the Book of Acts suggests but provides no evidence outside of the Book of Acts.

Over all, not real impressed. The next author on this subject uses the heretical Gnostics as an example of another Christianity. It is easy to see where this was going.

 

[PRmerger]

You could check that out for yourself…I’ve visited the cell where Baha’u’llah was imprisoned in the prison fortress of Akka…but here are the words of Abdul-Baha on the subject:

Firstly, isn’t it the Baha’i position that the spiritual version of a story is no less real than the literal version?

So why would it matter if Bahaullah was not actually physically imprisoned, but only wrote about what that would be like, were it to happen?

Secondly, since you didn’t actually see him imprisoned there, it’s quite possible that this is only a myth and his followers have either mistakenly (or with the intention to deceive) assigned this cell to him.

 

[daler]

Firstly, isn’t it the Baha’i position that the spiritual version of a story is no less real than the literal version?

So why would it matter if Bahaullah was not actually physically imprisoned, but only wrote about what that would be like, were it to happen?

Secondly, since you didn’t actually see him imprisoned there, it’s quite possible that this is only a myth and his followers have either mistakenly (or with the intention to deceive) assigned this cell to him.

PR,
. Although you enjoy passing your time toying with us here, what is definitely real is that Servant’s cousin was shot in the head a couple of weeks ago, my wife’s aunt and cousins (children at the time) were imprisoned and threatened with death thirty years ago, and she knew several of ten women hung in a single day in 1983. Also, that my friend Iraj’s sister has served over 5 years thus far of a twenty year sentence. Other of my friends have had relatives and friends killed. My friend Nagmeh’s brothers grave was desecrated, and persecution against the Baha’is is extremely cruel and pervasive.

. But set all this aside for awhile and read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and if you never had a single conversation with any of us here, judge Him on the basis of His Writings alone. It is obvious that “someone” wrote the Hidden Words, The Kitab-i-Iqan, and numerous other Tablets unlike anything the world has ever seen, both in volume, and eloquence, in a manner which is incomparable to anything any human being has ever written, save the few verses we have of Jesus and several other Sacred Texts of other religions.

. Truly, one whose heart does not respond to the Verses of God is spiritually dead. It is the words of Jesus in the Bible that convince me that He is sent by God, for His words are not like other men, except those we call Prophets. The same is true of the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

 

[daler]

Firstly, isn’t it the Baha’i position that the spiritual version of a story is no less real than the literal version?

So why would it matter if Bahaullah was not actually physically imprisoned, but only wrote about what that would be like, were it to happen?

Secondly, since you didn’t actually see him imprisoned there, it’s quite possible that this is only a myth and his followers have either mistakenly (or with the intention to deceive) assigned this cell to him.

We who testify of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts proclaim unto you that He has come. His verses alone are sufficient proof. He has summoned the peoples of the world unto God.

This is the Surah of the Temple:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-4.html

 

[PRmerger]

PR,
. Although you enjoy passing your time toying with us here,

If I am toying, then you are toying.

Makes no matter to me what label you give it. You are participating in it in the same manner as I am.

what is definitely real is that Servant’s cousin was shot in the head a couple of weeks ago, my wife’s aunt and cousins (children at the time) were imprisoned and threatened with death thirty years ago, and she knew several of ten women hung in a single day in 1983. Also, that my friend Iraj’s sister has served over 5 years thus far of a twenty year sentence. Other of my friends have had relatives and friends killed. My friend Nagmeh’s brothers grave was desecrated, and persecution against the Baha’is is extremely cruel and pervasive.

I am saddened to hear this.

But set all this aside for awhile and read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and if you never had a single conversation with any of us here, judge Him on the basis of His Writings alone. It is obvious that “someone” wrote the Hidden Words, The Kitab-i-Iqan, and numerous other Tablets unlike anything the world has ever seen, both in volume, and eloquence, in a manner which is incomparable to anything any human being has ever written, save the few verses we have of Jesus and several other Sacred Texts of other religions

I think you need to address the possibility that you are accepting a literal version of events of your holy prophet, but that they did not literally occur.

 

[PRmerger]

We who testify of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts proclaim unto you that He has come. His verses alone are sufficient proof.

Your literal interpretations of his life story are what separates those who may want to see the deeper meaning and the truth of what he may have only been dreaming.

Perhaps none of it actually happened, daler.

Have you ever considered this possibility that you are being too literal with his story?

 

[SteveVH]

We who testify of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts proclaim unto you that He has come. His verses alone are sufficient proof. He has summoned the peoples of the world unto God.

This is the Surah of the Temple:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-4.html

Really? That’s all it takes; a proclamation? I proclaim that Jesus is risen, bodily, from the grave and that Baha’u’llah is an imposter claiming to be the second coming of Christ.

 

[daler]

Your literal interpretations of his life story are what separates those who may want to see the deeper meaning and the truth of what he may have only been dreaming.

Perhaps none of it actually happened, daler.

Have you ever considered this possibility that you are being too literal with his story?

I have far too many friends and family members who are descended from those imprisoned and exiled, tortured and killed, in recent history. The remains of the Bab, Whose body was riddled with hundreds of bullets, was kept sealed in a wall in a casket in the home of my friend Farzad. My friend Nabil’s grandmother sewed the garment last worn by Abdul Baha and was born in the room where Baha’u’llah revealed His Most Holy Book.

I understand your purpose and intentions. Perhaps you are somehow insulted that the Baha’is do not agree with all of the literal stories you believe, but they believe in Jesus and do not deny Him. We revere Him without deifying Him, preferring to consider His own description of Himself as the One Who speaks not His own Words, but those given to Him by His Father. That we attempt to discern that which is factual and reasonable from that which appears to be fantastic and constructed by men in line with so much else which has been constructed in the past attests to our belief that religion and science go hand in hand. This stance does not offend people of faith who accept reason as a God given endowment which is not to be set aside in order to believe in God and His Messengers.

 

[Servant19]

Your literal interpretations of his life story are what separates those who may want to see the deeper meaning and the truth of what he may have only been dreaming.

Perhaps none of it actually happened, daler.

Have you ever considered this possibility that you are being too literal with his story?

Except, PR, that Baha’u’llahs suffering was recorded by several well known historians AT THE TIME, some of whom were totally independent of the Faith, and WRITTEN down, not verbally passed on, AND using a language that is still used today.

Use your rational scientific mind PR, something the Catholic Church advises you to use.

The motives are becoming a little egoistic…

The Resurrection events cannot come close, in terms of historical accuracy, when compared to the lives of the Bab and Bahaullah. Lets try to be adults please

 

[daler]

Really? That’s all it takes; a proclamation? I proclaim that Jesus is risen, bodily, from the grave and that Baha’u’llah is an imposter claiming to be the second coming of Christ.

Jesus was also called an imposter, and rejected by most of the people of His day.

 

[PRmerger]

I have far too many friends and family members who are descended from those imprisoned and exiled, tortured and killed, in recent history. The remains of the Bab, Whose body was riddled with hundreds of bullets, was kept sealed in a wall in a casket in the home of my friend Farzad. My friend Nabil’s grandmother sewed the garment last worn by Abdul Baha and was born in the room where Baha’u’llah revealed His Most Holy Book.

I understand your purpose and intentions. Perhaps you are somehow insulted that the Baha’is do not agree with all of the literal stories you believe, but they believe in Jesus and do not deny Him. We revere Him without deifying Him, preferring to consider His own description of Himself as the One Who speaks not His own Words, but those given to Him by His Father. That we attempt to discern that which is factual and reasonable from that which appears to be fantastic and constructed by men in line with so much else which has been constructed in the past attests to our belief that religion and science go hand in hand. This stance does not offend people of faith who accept reason as a God given endowment which is not to be set aside in order to believe in God and His Messengers.

No, daler.

All I am saying is that you may be wrong in literally interpreting the events of your holy leaders.

I think there’s a great possibility that the followers of your holy leaders may have had an intention to spread a message, but you have taken a literal interpretation erroneously. They had a deeper meaning, rather than what you have literally proclaimed.

The fact is: you really don’t know what happened to your holy prophet. You are simply taking the words of some people. And these people never met your holy prophet.

 

[Servant19]

Really? That’s all it takes; a proclamation? I proclaim that Jesus is risen, bodily, from the grave and that Baha’u’llah is an imposter claiming to be the second coming of Christ.

After reading 3000 posts Steve, you’re no closer, it seems, to understanding how Bahaullah was a Unique Individual.

Does the martyrdom of tens of thousands of people (recorded with written testimonies) in His and the Babs name mean nothing either?

Does the fact that this proclamation has caused millions of people to devote their lives to service and self sacrifice for others mean nothing either?

Again, I ask you for the umteenth time, show me one organization that is creating community transformation even close to what the global Bahai community is engaged in today. Just one example please. A link will suffice.

 

[PRmerger]

Except, PR, that Baha’u’llahs suffering was recorded by several well known historians AT THE TIME, some of whom were totally independent of the Faith, and WRITTEN down, not verbally passed on, AND using a language that is still used today.

That’s what they say, of course.

But you don’t really know, do you?

The Resurrection events cannot come close, in terms of historical accuracy, when compared to the lives of the Bab and Bahaullah. Lets try to be adults please

I am quite confident that in terms of verifiable accuracy the accounts are quite comparable.

You have spoken to not a single person who saw this execution. Right?

 

[Servant19]

No, daler.

All I am saying is that you may be wrong in literally interpreting the events of your holy leaders.

I think there’s a great possibility that the followers of your holy leaders may have had an intention to spread a message, but you have taken a literal interpretation erroneously. They had a deeper meaning, rather than what you have literally proclaimed.

The fact is: you really don’t know what happened to your holy prophet. You are simply taking the words of some people. And these people never met your holy prophet.

I think you need to carry out a more thorough research in the authenticity of Bahai history PR. This line of thinking and argument is pretty weak, really weak, almost will end up with egg on the face kinda thing

 

[daler]

No, daler.

All I am saying is that you may be wrong in literally interpreting the events of your holy leaders.

I think there’s a great possibility that the followers of your holy leaders may have had an intention to spread a message, but you have taken a literal interpretation erroneously. They had a deeper meaning, rather than what you have literally proclaimed.

The fact is: you really don’t know what happened to your holy prophet. You are simply taking the words of some people. And these people never met your holy prophet.

PR dear,
. This is a stretch. I have met people who knew Abdul Baha, who was born in 1844 and passed in 1921. I have known many people who knew people who were in the presence of Baha’u’llah.

. But what I offer you is of infinitely greater value than any testimony of my friends and family, and that is the Writings themselves, for the Words of God are sufficient proof that they came from God. If your heart is not moved by the Words of God, what can a simple soul like me say that would open your heart.

 

[PRmerger]

Again, I ask you for the umteenth time, show me one organization that is creating community transformation even close to what the global Bahai community is engaged in today. Just one example please. A link will suffice.

With all due respect, it’s irrelevant what kind of community transformation is occurring, if the foundation isn’t proclaiming truth.

There are millions of children each and every December (let’s make this billions) who are transformed from naughty little ones to angelic children, all based on the rather false idea that a jolly old man in a white suit is watching them and basing their Christmas gift on their behavior.

That they have been transformed is secondary to the fact that they are following a lie, right?

 

[Servant19]

That’s what they say, of course.

But you don’t really know, do you?

I am quite confident that in terms of verifiable accuracy the accounts are quite comparable.

You have spoken to not a single person who saw this execution. Right?

So you’re denying newspaper articles, a Cambridge orientalists array of historical books dedicated to the Bahai events, numerous Ambassadors records, all ready for you to look through in several major city libraries in the world?

And you call yourself a scientist???

 

[Servant19]

With all due respect, it’s irrelevant what kind of community transformation is occurring, if the foundation isn’t proclaiming truth.

There are millions of children each and every December (let’s make this billions) who are transformed from naughty little ones to angelic children, all based on the rather false idea that a jolly old man in a white suit is watching them and basing their Christmas gift on their behavior.

That they have been transformed is secondary to the fact that they are following a lie, right?

Falsehood will not create positive change, and most certainly not over 150 years. God would not have it any other way…