BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Randy_Carson]

Steve,
. The Jewish traditions were similarly handed down, were they not? Is it wrong for someone 3000 years later to question whether it was literal or metaphorical the stories of manna descending from heaven or Jonah being swallowed by a great fish?

. I grew up being told all of these stories were literal. I was also told that Santa Claus came through the chimney when we didn’t even have one, that the Tooth Fairy left me a dime under my pillow in exchange for a tooth, and that the earth was only 6000 years old. Then I was sent to school to study science, geology, and mathematics, expected to get A’s (cause mom was a teacher), and go back to Sunday school and repeat these old stories without my brain exploding.
. To top that off, I was told to love my enemies until it was time to go kill the gooks in Viet Nam and the whole thing started to unravel. My personal friends in Wounded Knee are descended from the few survivors who weren’t massacred, who were rounded up and taken to a church in Pine Ridge where, posted right over the cross, was a sign that said “Peace on earth, good will to men.”
. Oh, and the reason they live on the reservation is because somebody signed a piece of paper written “In the year of our Lord, 1868” at Fort Laramie because the buffalo were hunted to extinction in part of a campaign of genocide. Then, my same friends were beaten, locked up, and deprived of food by the folks at the Mission school. They, too, were told to reject their own “superstitious” beliefs and accept a new set, which they were not allowed to question.

All I am saying is that God gave me a brain and when I use it to raise reasonable questions, I am being told I’m going to hell. That really affects my perception of those who insist upon my reliance upon such things as are consistent with ancient story-telling traditions which, to me, make much more sense to my rational mind when a little leeway is allowed for logical use of my mind.

. And when the same folks telling me this say "Well, the Muslims have been wrong for 1400 years, the Hindus for 5000, years, and the Jews on much of their beliefs for 3 or 4000 years, but “our guys” are right for the past 2000, and they’re the only one’s right, while all the others are wrong.

No offense intended here, Steve. Just laying it out as it is. I hope that this is ok. Is it? Is it ok for my Indian friends to finally ask these questions? Is it Ok for my Buddhist friends to ask a question in class? How about a Baha’i? or a Muslim? I can tell you this. That in Iran, the Baha’is are going to jail, losing their jobs, and still getting killed for “daring” to ask questions and oppose the equivalent of the Pharisees, i.e., the mullahs, and paying a very, very heavy price for it. They are going through exactly what the early Christians went through…

I’m sorry if you’ve been told you’re going to hell. While it may or may not be true, no Catholic can tell you that with certainty. However, we can tell you with certainty how to go to heaven. What you do with that information is up to you.

It certainly sounds like you have seen a lot of difficult things in the course of your lifetime. How you respond to those difficulties is the key to your eternal future.

As for “our guys” getting it right for 2,000 years when all the others were “wrong” for far longer…well, rising from the dead has a way of separating someone from the crowd of pretenders to the throne, ya know?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Steve, where can we study the original Aramaic teachings of the early Church?

Since the language of the Roman Empire was not Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Greek by the original authors. The New Testament was not translated into Greek, the inspired text was written in Greek originally. Today, it would probably be written in English, and yes, some of Jesus’ sayings and word plays would be a little difficult to translate perfectly from Aramaic.

Why people might end up thinking that Jesus was the rock instead of Peter or that Jesus actually had brothers and sisters!

Of course, imagine a worse scenario: Suppose that the Word of God was written in a language completely unknown to me…let’s say Arabic. Since I’m an American and I only speak English, I would have to rely on someone else’s translation of God’s word into English or on my own faltering efforts to understand Arabic.

Either way, I have a problem. If I read a translation into English, I’m not really reading the Word of God as it was spoken, and if I try to learn Arabic, I will be limited by my own abilities and fluency, but I’ll never be as fluent as a native speaker of Arabic from, say, the sixth century or so.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think it is fair to say that there is a vast number of Christians (Catholics included) who say that non-Christians are going to hell, especially when very reasonable arguments are presented which may counter traditional Christian thinking.

Actually, it is a distinct characteristic of Catholic theology that we do not place anyone in hell, though occasionally we do declare that someone is definitely in heaven.

Moreover, much to the chagrin of many non-Catholic Christians, the Catholic Church has gone to great lengths to explain that virtuous pagans may be saved.

We take a lot of heat for that from some.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Steve, if I may address this response.

I have asked this question before and have yet to see a response.

In the Jewish Faith, the authority is passed down traditionally through the Semikhah.
Semikhah traces the ordination of authority back to Moses and the seventy elders.

What right did Jesus have to overthrow this traditional authority?

Did Jesus submit His revelation to the Semikhah for approval? (a question that has been asked of Baha’u’llah’s revelation in this thread)

How did Jesus in any way fulfil the Messianic prophecies because the Semikhah definitely did not approve it?

While a complete recitation of the 300+ messianic prophecies from the OT fulfilled by Jesus is way beyond the scope of this post or thread, I can address your other questions.

Concerning Jesus’ authority:

Matthew 28:17-19
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 20:20-22
20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

So, all authority had been given to Jesus by His Father. As God, His authority surpassed the authority of the Sanhedrin. Thus, there was no need for Him to submit to them. Rising from the dead has a way of making things like that clear, don’t you think?

And how did Jesus send the Apostles? With the same authority that He Himself had received from His father. Thus, the Catholic Church has the authority of God received directly from Jesus who breathed the Holy Spirit upon them.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well the same responses apply to Baha’ullah my friend

Baha’ullah was God?

Or merely a “Manifestation of God”?

Big difference.

You see, Jesus claimed to BE God…not just a manifestation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Give me your evidence…

Actually, if you assert that he is, then we would respectfully suggest that the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Now, let me ask this question: You may assert that Jesus was purely “spiritual” and not real flesh and bones which enabled him to walk through doors or walls, but how is it that his body was able to chew and swallow fish? Why didn’t his spiritual body pass right through the fish just as it had passed through the doors and walls of the room where the disciples were gathered?

I think the gospel writers and the author of Acts were quite bright enough to see that what they wrote did not entirely fit with a physical resurrection, and also did not entirely match the usual views of spirits can and cannot do. We should not fall into the trap of thinking that critical thinking was discovered with the Enlightenment. So if we suppose that the authors were conscious of what they were doing, what is the lesson they intend us to learn? Something about not imposing our categories, not pretending we can grasp a mystery, perhaps?

In contrast, the story of Lazarus is that of a physical re-animation. There’s nothing spirit-like about the revived Lazarus, no mystery is entailed. And while it’s an impressive story of the power of Christ, it doesn’t make Lazarus particularly significant to us today

 

[eddie_too]

why do the bahai believe that the interpretations of sacred scripture by those who wrote it are not reliable?

why do the bahai believe that the interpretations made by a mere man nearly 1800 years after they were written are more accurate than those who experienced Christ and wrote of their experiences?

why do the bahai believe bahaullah was a holy man?

why do the bahai believe bahaullah was a manifestation of God?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

here i expressed my confusion about bahai teaching, hoping some bahai could provide a justification for the bahai belief that the catholic interpretation of the bible is wrong:

i wrote this, “i also do not understand why a person would believe that it is right to interpret sacred scripture differently from the interpretations of those who wrote and preserved sacred scripture.”

but, the bahai have not responded to my desire to understand this teaching.

Two answers come to mind

1. The question is not whether one’s interpretation is the same as, or different to, the interpretations of those who have handed down scripture in one’s own faith tradition. The question is, is it your own? Have you made it your own by reasoning it through and seeking spiritual confirmation until you KNOW it? Something accepted as a hand-me down will prove useless in a time of trial.
2. All the faith traditions (different schools within one religion, and different religions) have their own traditional interpretations of the faith. That’s confusing enough, and it has caused terrific controversies and been one of the bases for prejudice, wars etc. This diversity gets even greater when – as is happening – more and more people take responsibility for their own spiritual lives and their own interpretations. BUT, the controversies and the breaches of fellowship are reduced, not multiplied. If I am committed to holding fast to a traditional interpretation – say on the location of the Holy Sepulcher – then I have difficulty in even seeing the point in any other view, because if I do see what is being said, my identity and membership of a community is undermined. On the other hand, if I’ve worked through the question and decide that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is on the true site, or that the Garden Tomb is on the true site, and I encounter someone with a different idea, it is only **my idea **that is being questioned, not my identity and tradition. The more we can make our doctrines our own ideas, the more likely we are to have fellowship with people whose own ideas are different, and the more likely we are to learn from one another.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

why do the bahai believe bahaullah was a holy man?

why do the bahai believe bahaullah was a manifestation of God?

That Baha’u’llah was a holy man, and wise man, and very well-informed and talented man, is evidence by the man and his writings, the effect he had on the lives of others, and what others have said about him (in declining order of importance). As regards these terms, we think we known more or less what “a holy man” looks like, and we look at Baha’u’llah and his son Abdu’l-Baha, and say, yep, that’s holy.

Baha’u’llah also said that he was “a manifestation of God,” and uses the same word for other founders of religion and some prophets and holy men. It’s a new word (although much used by the Bab as well), whose meaning is not already established. So the question is not, how do we know Baha’u’llah was a manifestation of God, but what does Baha’u’llah mean by “Manifestation of God” and does that fit with what we already understand and does it lead us to new understandings of the mysteries of Faith?

 

[Lochias]

Two answers come to mind

1. The question is not whether one’s interpretation is the same as, or different to, the interpretations of those who have handed down scripture in one’s own faith tradition. The question is, is it your own? Have you made it your own by reasoning it through and seeking spiritual confirmation until you KNOW it?

No, sorry. If we trust Jesus, we trust that he left the law as it is for a reason. All too often, what people mean by “reasoning it through and making it your own” is “changing the truth to something else that fits with what YOU think it should be.”

There is no greater lack of faith, in my opinion. You can’t even KNOW with 100% certainty that the plane you’re fixing to get on will make it to its destination safely. All you’re advocating for is emotion and feeling, which Truth is unaffected by.

Something accepted as a hand-me down will prove useless in a time of trial.

Only to someone who had no faith and trust in Jesus to begin with. We understand why things are the way that they are; you keep assuming that we accept the authority of the Church blindly, when we know EXACTLY why the Church teaches as it does, and agree and believe in it…as any logical person would.

1. All the faith traditions (different schools within one religion, and different religions) have their own traditional interpretations of the faith. That’s confusing enough, and it has caused terrific controversies and been one of the bases for prejudice, wars etc. This diversity gets even greater when – as is happening – more and more people take responsibility for their own spiritual lives and their own interpretations. BUT, the controversies and the breaches of fellowship are reduced, not multiplied. If I am committed to holding fast to a traditional interpretation – say on the location of the Holy Sepulcher – then I have difficulty in even seeing the point in any other view, because if I do see what is being said, my identity and membership of a community is undermined. On the other hand, if I’ve worked through the question and decide that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is on the true site, or that the Garden Tomb is on the true site, and I encounter someone with a different idea, it is only **my idea **that is being questioned, not my identity and tradition. The more we can make our doctrines our own ideas, the more likely we are to have fellowship with people whose own ideas are different, and the more likely we are to learn from one another.

Relativism does no favors for anyone, and leads only to division and strife.

 

[eddie_too]

it is pretty clear from the bahai who have posted on this thread that to be bahai is to reject the Incarnate Word.

it may be difficult for bahai to understand, but a catholic would have to a fool to reject the sacrifice of almighty God Himself and to replace that sacrifice with the words of a mere human being.

christians have what no other group can provide, the Incarnation.

why would any christian want to have something lesser to replace the greater.

surely everyone can agree that the Incarnate Word (as held by christians) is a gift that far surpasses anything else any other human being can provide.

bahai is a non-christian religion.

to be bahai is to give up the God-man.

speaking only for myself, ain’t gonna happen.

but, i have learned alot about bahai. what i have learned convinces me that it has little to offer human beings. there have been so many humans who have claimed a direct line to God.

there has been only one human who has raised Himself from the dead.

i advise everyone go with the obvious. my God would not make it difficult to discern the truth.

the Resurrection of Christ makes the Truth very obvious.

 

[Lochias]

it is pretty clear from the bahai who have posted on this thread that to be bahai is to reject the Incarnate Word.

it may be difficult for bahai to understand, but a catholic would have to a fool to reject the sacrifice of almighty God Himself and to replace that sacrifice with the words of a mere human being.

christians have what no other group can provide, the Incarnation.

why would any christian want to have something lesser to replace the greater.

surely everyone can agree that the Incarnate Word (as held by christians) is a gift that far surpasses anything else any other human being can provide.

bahai is a non-christian religion.

to be bahai is to give up the God-man.

speaking only for myself, ain’t gonna happen.

but, i have learned alot about bahai. what i have learned convinces me that it has little to offer human beings. there have been so many humans who have claimed a direct line to God.

there has been only one human who has raised Himself from the dead.

i advise everyone go with the obvious. my God would not make it difficult to discern the truth.

the Resurrection of Christ makes the Truth very obvious.

Agreed. Like The JWs, like the Mormons, the Baha’i are technically a cult.

 

[rinnie]

I think the gospel writers and the author of Acts were quite bright enough to see that what they wrote did not entirely fit with a physical resurrection, and also did not entirely match the usual views of spirits can and cannot do. We should not fall into the trap of thinking that critical thinking was discovered with the Enlightenment. So if we suppose that the authors were conscious of what they were doing, what is the lesson they intend us to learn? Something about not imposing our categories, not pretending we can grasp a mystery, perhaps?

In contrast, the story of Lazarus is that of a physical re-animation. There’s nothing spirit-like about the revived Lazarus, no mystery is entailed. And while it’s an impressive story of the power of Christ, it doesn’t make Lazarus particularly significant to us today

Wow slow down there. Lets say we agree with you and it was not a Physical Resurrection.

John 20:17 Mary M was told to stop HOLDING on to Me! For I have not ascended to Father,

Now Mary was told to STOP holding on to me. And she said to the disciples I have SEEN the Lord.

Bad Mushrooms?

 

[rinnie]

That Baha’u’llah was a holy man, and wise man, and very well-informed and talented man, is evidence by the man and his writings, the effect he had on the lives of others, and what others have said about him (in declining order of importance). As regards these terms, we think we known more or less what “a holy man” looks like, and we look at Baha’u’llah and his son Abdu’l-Baha, and say, yep, that’s holy.

Baha’u’llah also said that he was “a manifestation of God,” and uses the same word for other founders of religion and some prophets and holy men. It’s a new word (although much used by the Bab as well), whose meaning is not already established. So the question is not, how do we know Baha’u’llah was a manifestation of God, but what does Baha’u’llah mean by “Manifestation of God” and does that fit with what we already understand and does it lead us to new understandings of the mysteries of Faith?

John Paul ll the previous Pope was a Holy Man, a Wise Man, well informed and talented man, got the books to prove it also. I also believe he did more lives of people then your Man and that will be seen.

So we also look at John Paul ll a Saint, Manifestation of God? Depends how you define it I guess. But we don’t say that, no we do not.

Look at the last POpe could write a book on God and give you a understanding of him on simple human terms anyone could understand. Prophet again No. Not the way you define it anyway.

Now we got the New Pope he can TOP anything you guy can and do one better. But is this a contest? Nope its about truth.

And truth is GOD leads these Holy Men of ours through the Power of the Holy Spirit and will until the end of time.

Are they perfect? Nope! They will tell you they are not. But what they teach is perfect because it come directly from God.

See our guys do not stray or teach differently then God. Its the same today as yesterday as tommorow.

Because truth does not change and God’s word does not change.

See the Catholic Church has ONE GOD. No Pope or Holy Man will ever claim to have a different truth from the Holy Spirit. Not in the CC.

 

[rinnie]

Two answers come to mind

1. The question is not whether one’s interpretation is the same as, or different to, the interpretations of those who have handed down scripture in one’s own faith tradition. The question is, is it your own? Have you made it your own by reasoning it through and seeking spiritual confirmation until you KNOW it? Something accepted as a hand-me down will prove useless in a time of trial.
2. All the faith traditions (different schools within one religion, and different religions) have their own traditional interpretations of the faith. That’s confusing enough, and it has caused terrific controversies and been one of the bases for prejudice, wars etc. This diversity gets even greater when – as is happening – more and more people take responsibility for their own spiritual lives and their own interpretations. BUT, the controversies and the breaches of fellowship are reduced, not multiplied. If I am committed to holding fast to a traditional interpretation – say on the location of the Holy Sepulcher – then I have difficulty in even seeing the point in any other view, because if I do see what is being said, my identity and membership of a community is undermined. On the other hand, if I’ve worked through the question and decide that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is on the true site, or that the Garden Tomb is on the true site, and I encounter someone with a different idea, it is only **my idea **that is being questioned, not my identity and tradition. The more we can make our doctrines our own ideas, the more likely we are to have fellowship with people whose own ideas are different, and the more likely we are to learn from one another.

How can you learn from one another when you see it your way and I see it mine?

And no offense you have to have the MIND of God to teach what God teaches.

This is not a one size fits all, its not even a one size fits most.

Its not about learning from one another. Thats easy, personally I would rather make my own mistakes then learn from yours. You know why? People never do, they learn from their mistakes not yours.

A man can tell you until he is blue in the face to not do something, but if people want to they will. Its called free will. Not learn from my mistakes.

Until you can show me you are human and divine you have no say. I go by DIVINE teachings no us human teachings.

Jesus was human and taught divine. Simply because he was Human and DIVINE!

 

[arthra]

Baha’is believe that the Divine Manifestations have three planes…so Jesus as a Manifestation would be both human and divine in the following way:

We said that the Manifestations have three planes.*

First, the physical reality**, which depends upon the body;

second, the individual reality, that is to say, the rational soul;
**
third, the divine appearance,** which is the divine perfections, the cause of the life of existence, of the education of souls, of the guidance of people, and of the enlightenment of the contingent world.

The physical state is the human state which perishes because it is composed of elements, and all that is composed of elements will necessarily be decomposed and dispersed.

But the individual reality of the Manifestations of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things. It is like the sun, which by its essential nature produces light and cannot be compared to the moon, just as the particles that compose the globe of the sun cannot be compared with those which compose the moon. The particles and organization of the former produce rays, but the particles of which the moon is composed do not produce rays but need to borrow light. So other human realities are those souls who, like the moon, take light from the sun; but that Holy Reality is luminous in Himself.

The third plane of that Being [1] is the Divine Bounty, the splendor of the Preexistent Beauty, and the radiance of the light of the Almighty. The individual realities of the Divine Manifestations have no separation from the Bounty of God and the Lordly Splendor. In the same way, the orb of the sun has no separation from the light. Therefore, it may be said that the ascension of the Holy Manifestation is simply the leaving of this elemental form.

For example, if a lamp illumines this niche, and if its light ceases to illuminate it because the niche is destroyed, the bounty of the lamp is not cut off. Briefly, in the Holy Manifestations the Preexistent Bounty is like the light, the individuality is represented by the glass globe, and the human body is like the niche: if the niche is destroyed, the lamp continues to burn.

The Divine Manifestations are so many different mirrors because They have a special individuality, but that which is reflected in the mirrors is one sun. It is clear that the reality of Christ is different from that of Moses.*

[1 The Manifestation.]

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 153

 

[eddie_too]

no offense, but the bahai teachings and literature quoted on this thread brings to my mind a saying from my youth. "if you can blind them with your brilliance baffle them with you bullsh__.

i read those bahai words and think, so what? what significance do such conglomerations have for me? these words could be interpreted to provide justification for virtually any concept.

if a human being is not a bahai, what effect does that have on them, now and in the future?

i fail to see the significance of disregarding everything the bahai teach?

 

[arthra]

what persuades bahais that bahaullah was a holy man?

what persuades them that hahaullah was a manifestation of God?

I think most of us Baha’is came to realize the life of Baha’u’llah was exceptional…

Born into a noble family He soon renounced power in the court of the Shah…

I’ll let His Son Abdul-Baha describe the life of Baha’u’llah for you:

*O NOBLE friends and seekers for the Kingdom of God! About sixty years ago in the time when the fire of war was blazing among the nations of the world, and bloodshed was considered an honour to mankind; in a time when the carnage of thousands stained the earth; when children were rendered fatherless; when fathers were without sons and mothers were spent with weeping; when the darkness of inter-racial hatred and animosity seemed to envelope mankind and blot out the divine light; when the wafting of the holy breath of God seemed to be cut off – in that time Bahá’u’lláh rose like a shining star from the 37 horizon of Persia, inspired with the message of Peace and of Brotherhood among men.

He brought the light of guidance to the world; He kindled the fire of love and revealed the great reality of the True Beloved. He sought to destroy the foundations of religious and racial prejudice and of political rivalry.

He likened the world of humanity to a tree, and all the nations to its branches and the people to its leaves, buds and fruits.

His mission was to change ignorant fanaticism into Universal love, to establish in the minds of His followers the basis of the unity of humanity and to bring about in practice the equality of mankind. He declared that all men were equal under the mercy and bounty of God.

Then was the door of the Kingdom set wide and the light of a new heaven on earth revealed unto seeing eyes.

Yet the whole Bahá’u’lláh’s life was spent in the midst of great trial and cruel tyranny. In Persia He was thrown into prison, put into chains, and lived constantly under the menace of the sword. He was scorned and scourged.

When He was about thirty years old He was exiled to Baghdad, and from Baghdad to Constantinople, and from there to Adrianople and lastly to the prison of 'Akká.

Yet under chains and from His cell He succeeded in spreading His cause, and uplifting the banner of the oneness of humanity.*

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 36

 

[rinnie]

Baha’is believe that the Divine Manifestations have three planes…so Jesus as a Manifestation would be both human and divine in the following way:

We said that the Manifestations have three planes.*

First, the physical reality***, which depends upon the body;

second, the individual reality, that is to say, the rational soul;
**
third, the divine appearance,** which is the divine perfections, the cause of the life of existence, of the education of souls, of the guidance of people, and of the enlightenment of the contingent world.

The physical state is the human state which perishes because it is composed of elements, and all that is composed of elements will necessarily be decomposed and dispersed.

But the individual reality of the Manifestations of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things. It is like the sun, which by its essential nature produces light and cannot be compared to the moon, just as the particles that compose the globe of the sun cannot be compared with those which compose the moon. The particles and organization of the former produce rays, but the particles of which the moon is composed do not produce rays but need to borrow light. So other human realities are those souls who, like the moon, take light from the sun; but that Holy Reality is luminous in Himself.

The third plane of that Being [1] is the Divine Bounty, the splendor of the Preexistent Beauty, and the radiance of the light of the Almighty. The individual realities of the Divine Manifestations have no separation from the Bounty of God and the Lordly Splendor. In the same way, the orb of the sun has no separation from the light. Therefore, it may be said that the ascension of the Holy Manifestation is simply the leaving of this elemental form.

For example, if a lamp illumines this niche, and if its light ceases to illuminate it because the niche is destroyed, the bounty of the lamp is not cut off. Briefly, in the Holy Manifestations the Preexistent Bounty is like the light, the individuality is represented by the glass globe, and the human body is like the niche: if the niche is destroyed, the lamp continues to burn.

The Divine Manifestations are so many different mirrors because They have a special individuality, but that which is reflected in the mirrors is one sun. It is clear that the reality of Christ is different from that of Moses.

[1 The Manifestation.]

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 153

But it is not God. Jesus was indeed God. Do you understand what we are trying to say here. Can you not see the difference.

And yes absolutely the reality of Christ is different from Moses. Moses isn’t GOD!