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SteveVH
Guest
Baha’u’llah had three wives, I believe. The second coming of Christ.
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PRmerger
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tonyfish58
Guest
Arthra gave a more full answer to the question, I was referring only to people participating in Forums as I was trying to be Brief.
The Universal House of Justice can give an Official Answer and in the link I posted above, you will see that the the writings of the Universal House of Justice are listed. Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/
Regards Tony
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PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough.
So you believe that the House of Justice speaks for the Bahais authoritatively?
Even if what they say is not the Pure word?
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tonyfish58
Guest
PRmerger - Firstly I would like to comment that we are not all perfect, we all have a lot to learn. This does not take away from the Perfection of Christ. Would you agree with that?
If you do then it is also true as we reflect the teachings of our chosen Faith we may not all be good at it. I am sure you see many things posted by Christians on this Forum that you would find conflict with Christian Values! Unfortunately we also do this as Baha’is and I apologize for this.
You asked - So you believe that the House of Justice speaks for the Bahais authoritatively?Even if what they say is not the Pure word?
There is a unique Covenant in the Baha’i Faith Given by Baha’u’llah on through Abdul’Baha and Shoghi Effendi to the Universal House of Justice. The universal House of Justice can not give any more scripture, but they have the authority to give an authorized view on what the scripture means. They have also been invested with the authority to enact Laws in the future that are not currently covered in the writings. The decisions of the Universal House of Justice have been given Infallibility.
They interpret from the Pure word and the decision they arrive at is binding.
Correct me if I am wrong, is this how you see the Pope?
Regards Tony
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daler
Guest
PR,
. I believe the answer to your question lies in the following:
. “It is incumbent upon the Trustees of the House of Justice to take counsel together regarding those things which have not outwardly been revealed in the Book, and to enforce that which is agreeable to them. God will verily inspire them with whatsoever He willeth, and He, verily, is the Provider, the Omniscient.”
. Not only has the House of Justice been invested by Bahá’u’lláh with the authority to legislate whatsoever has not been explicitly and outwardly recorded in His holy Writ, upon it has also been conferred by the Will and Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the right and power to abrogate, according to the changes and requirements of the time, whatever has been already enacted and enforced by a preceding House of Justice. In this connection, He revealed the following in His Will:
. “And inasmuch as the House of Justice hath power to enact laws that are not expressly recorded in the Book and bear upon daily transactions, so also it hath power to repeal the same. Thus for example, the House of Justice enacteth today a certain law and enforceth it, and a hundred years hence, circumstances having profoundly changed and the conditions having altered, another House of Justice will then have power, according to the exigencies of the time, to alter that law.
. This it can do because that law formeth no part of the divine explicit text. The House of Justice is both the initiator and the abrogator of its own laws.” Such is the immutability of His revealed Word. Such is the elasticity which characterizes the functions of His appointed ministers. The first preserves the identity of His Faith, and guards the integrity of His law. The second enables it, even as a living organism, to expand and adapt itself to the needs and requirements of an ever-changing society."
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tonyfish58
Guest
I am sorry this is so. But in all fairness show me a Forum where all posts are saintly Replies in the Spirit of Christs or Baha’u’llahs Teachings.
Could your reply to this post also fall short of this high aim?
Could this answer to you also fall short of that threshold?
We all learn by what we say and post, so lets learn together what must be done and learn to Love God together!
Regards Tony
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Servant19
Guest
PR…
EVERYTHING that is posted in this forum, UNLESS IT IS QUOTED TO BE FROM ONE OF THE BAHAI CENTRAL FIGURES, is all personal opinion.
We are having a discussion here.
Is the fact that Lochias thought we are rude official Church teaching? How would we know?
Is the fact that Deva thinks we are arrogant, official Church teaching?
P.S I must say I like your graphical inserts, they do make me smile!
EVERYTHING that is posted in this forum, UNLESS IT IS QUOTED TO BE FROM ONE OF THE BAHAI CENTRAL FIGURES, is all personal opinion.
We are having a discussion here.
Is the fact that Lochias thought we are rude official Church teaching? How would we know?
Is the fact that Deva thinks we are arrogant, official Church teaching?
P.S I must say I like your graphical inserts, they do make me smile!
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
This is a thread for questions about the Bahai Faith, so I’ll turn that around: what is your take on the historical accuracy of the miracle at the martyrdom of the Bab?…I would be interested to hear your perspective, therefore, on the historical accuracy of the Resurrection as a literal event, and also how you view it from a Bahai perspective
It turns out, Tabriz is on the way to Golgotha… because that miracle story has been hugely exaggerated through a misunderstanding. The early Iranian Babis and Bahais didn’t know the story of the 750 muskets, and the oldest extant account says it was a platoon from the regiment that formed the firing squad. The first account I know of that includes the idea of a whole regiment being the firing squad comes from a Christian missionary in Edirne, and it seems likely he had simply misunderstood a Persian account, or a translator had misunderstood it for him. Yet something dramatic did happen at the barracks square in Tabriz, and its effects have been felt…
In a similar way, something dramatic did happen in the Church following Jesus’ death. The oldest stories speak of disembodied appearances, such as Paul’s encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. As the stories develop, they become increasingly concrete, and we get the empty tomb stories. I don’t think these are historical, since if the Jerusalem church had known where the empty tomb was from which Jesus had risen, that fact would surely have left traces. So I think the church at Jerusalem simply didn’t know what had happened to Jesus body, and that the empty tomb stories were developed later to support the “spiritual appearances” stories that were already in circulation (and being told, let us remember, by people who had actually had these experiences of encountering Christ).
The scientific-history approach to the origins of religions, and the faith perspective, do not sit comfortably together, and I do not pretend to have squared the circle on this. This applies to Bahai history as it does to Islamic and Christian history. However I do think that Abdu’l-Baha’s approach to the Resurrection, in Some Answered Questions chapter 23, can serve as a model. Abdu’l-Baha knew about the Higher Criticism as it was developing at the time, and he does seem to avoid directly attributing the gospels to their traditional authors, but he does not try to educate his audience about the latest discoveries on the history of the Gospels. He reads the stories as stories, and finds the narrative meaning.
The higher criticism of the New Testament poses a dilemma for anyone who has studied it, and who is also seeking to serve the faithful, to follow the commandment “feed my sheep.” This knowledge about the history and dynamics of development of the New Testament generally does not answer a need among the believers. In fact, to bring it up would just get in the way of serving them. But once one knows this stuff, one cannot un-know it. The answer is to do what Abdu’l-Baha did – not try to teach all that one knows, but rather to hear what is needed and answer the need.
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PRmerger
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Yes.
I understand this.
How is one chosen to be a member of the Universal House of Justice?
With some nuances, yes, this is how we see the Pope and the magisterium.
Now, it appears that Sen does not seem to believe there is a parallel between our Catholic magisterium and the Bahai UHofJ.
You do.
Who is correct?
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daler
Guest
PR,
. The Administrative Order is composed of three levels. The Local Spiritual Assembly of 9 members is elected by all adults of 21 years of age (Baha’Is) in the community each spring by a secret ballot with no one promoting their views of who should serve. It is prayerful and private without candidacy or electioneering, etc.
. The National Spiritual Assemblies are elected via delegates in a two stage process. We gather next month, actually, in our regions to elect a delegate, or delegates according to population, who in the spring go to Wilmette, IL (near Chicago) to consult and vote for the members of the National Spiritual Assembly, composed of 9 members.
. Once every 5 years the members of the National Spiritual Assemblies (currently 182 nations) gather in Haifa, Israel to elect the 9 members of the Universal House of Justice. Again, this is done in a prayerful atmosphere with no campaigning or electioneering, etc
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PRmerger
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So then it is not the position of the Bahai that use of an archaic language ought to give one pause regarding one’s sacred text?
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PRmerger
Guest
Ah…very, very interesting!
So it does appear that some Bahais here have been erroneously taking a literal interpretation of these events then.
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
The cases are not comparable. “The ascension of Baha’u’llah” is Bahai-speak for his death. It is elevated language we use to express our reverence for him, without intending to imply anything miraculous like the “ascension” in the Feast of the Ascension, when Jesus’ disciples saw the risen Christ disappearing from their view (thus explaining why the appearances of Christ had ended). In Christian language “ascension” refers to something miraculous, but in Bahai language it just means dying, in a very normal way. Since Baha’u’llah died surrounded by his family and disciples, and no doctor was called, there are no independent witnesses. But since there was a funeral, and a burial, and the Sultan was informed, there is no reason to doubt that he did die.
The astounding miracle reported by Matthew is something quite different: “27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
The story includes many witnesses (“appeared to many”) - but if any such thing had been reported by many witnesses, it would have been “mentioned in dispatches” to put it mildly. But even Mark and Luke don’t know this story. Or rather, Luke must have know it, since he used Matthew as one of his sources, but Luke chooses not to repeat it. It’s too much of a tall story for a sensible physician like Luke. And it doesn’t fit with the priority of Jesus, for these resurrections are supposed to have occurred before the resurrection of Jesus. And what happened to these resurrected people? …
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daler
Guest
PS I don’t know enough about Catholic procedures and the magisterium to speak on this aspect. Sen is quite knowledgeable on such matters.
What is specific to the establishment of the Universal House of Justice is that it was written by Baha’u’llah in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (Most Holy Book) and thus, as a matter of Faith for the Baha’is, is an Institution revealed by God through the Pen of Baha’u’llah.
The following Wikipedia link describes it more fully:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_House_of_Justice
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arthra
Guest
*Meger asked:
How is one chosen to be a member of the Universal House of Justice?*
Every five years the National Spiritual Assemblies send delegates to the Baha’i World Centre for the International Baha’i Convention and elect the House of Justice…nine members by secret ballot… there is no campaigning or nominations.
news.bahai.org/story/951
The Convention saw the election of the nine members of the Universal House of Justice for the coming five year term. In a unique electoral process, all forms of campaigning, electioneering and nominations are strictly avoided. Rather, after prayerful reflection, the assembled delegates silently and privately wrote down the names of nine individuals who they felt would be best able to serve on the institution.
news.bahai.org/story/953
How is one chosen to be a member of the Universal House of Justice?*
Every five years the National Spiritual Assemblies send delegates to the Baha’i World Centre for the International Baha’i Convention and elect the House of Justice…nine members by secret ballot… there is no campaigning or nominations.
news.bahai.org/story/951
The Convention saw the election of the nine members of the Universal House of Justice for the coming five year term. In a unique electoral process, all forms of campaigning, electioneering and nominations are strictly avoided. Rather, after prayerful reflection, the assembled delegates silently and privately wrote down the names of nine individuals who they felt would be best able to serve on the institution.
news.bahai.org/story/953
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
Exactly. There’s a thesis or two waiting to be written, on the subject “Early Christianity in the light of the Bahai Faith.” To be a Bahai is very much like being an early Christian in the Roman Empire. When we see how stories are transmitted and developed, and why, in the Bahai community, it suggests something about how oral and written texts might have developed in the Christian community. It is of course only suggestive, but still useful, for it tells us what kinds of things we might be looking for in the early church.Ah…very, very interesting!
So it does appear that some Bahais here have been erroneously taking a literal interpretation of these events then.
There are half a dozen entries on my Bahai studies blog that are tagged Bahai Lore. Another specifically reconstructs how the story of the 750-man firing squad developed. It is just a preliminary study, and quite likely to be overturned as more early accounts are found, but it suggests to me how stories such as the empty tomb accounts could have developed, without there being any intention to deceive.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
When will God put this world and all its evil to rights?
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arthra
Guest
Some have asked about the marriages of Baha’u’llah …The following is an accurate account from the Universal House of Justice:
Of course in His early years He was married according to Shiah ordinances… The marriages were arranged through families. …as regards Bahá’u’lláh’s marriage it should be noted that His three marriages were all contracted before He revealed His Book of Laws, and even before His declaration in Baghdád, at a time when Bahá’í marriage laws had not yet been known, and the Revelation not yet disclosed.
(25 May 1938 to a National Spiritual Assembly)Bahá’u’lláh had no concubine, He had three legal wives. As He married them before the “Aqdas” (His book of laws) was revealed, He was only acting according to the laws of Islám, which had not yet been superseded. He made plurality of wives conditional upon justice; 'Abdu’l-Bahá interpreted this to mean that a man may not have more than one wife at a time, as it is impossible to be just to two or more women in marriage.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)
…Bahá’u’lláh married the first and second wives while He was still in Tihrán, and the third wife while He was in Baghdád. At that time, the Laws of the “Aqdas” had not been revealed, and secondly, He was following the Laws of the previous Dispensation and the customs of the people of His own land.
(14 January 1953 to an individual believer)
The three wives of Bahá’u’lláh were:
Nawáb (Asíyih Khánum): married some time between 24 September and 22 October 1835; died 1886; seven children.
Mahd-i-'Ulyá (Fátimih Khánum): born 1828; married 1849; died 1904; six children. She broke the Covenant after the Ascension of Bahá’u’lláh as did all her children. See God Passes By (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1987), chapter 15.
Gawhar Khánum: married in Baghdád; died during the Ministry of 'Abdu’l-Bahá; one child. …
bahai-library.com/uhj_wives_bahaullah
Of course in His early years He was married according to Shiah ordinances… The marriages were arranged through families. …as regards Bahá’u’lláh’s marriage it should be noted that His three marriages were all contracted before He revealed His Book of Laws, and even before His declaration in Baghdád, at a time when Bahá’í marriage laws had not yet been known, and the Revelation not yet disclosed.
(25 May 1938 to a National Spiritual Assembly)Bahá’u’lláh had no concubine, He had three legal wives. As He married them before the “Aqdas” (His book of laws) was revealed, He was only acting according to the laws of Islám, which had not yet been superseded. He made plurality of wives conditional upon justice; 'Abdu’l-Bahá interpreted this to mean that a man may not have more than one wife at a time, as it is impossible to be just to two or more women in marriage.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)
…Bahá’u’lláh married the first and second wives while He was still in Tihrán, and the third wife while He was in Baghdád. At that time, the Laws of the “Aqdas” had not been revealed, and secondly, He was following the Laws of the previous Dispensation and the customs of the people of His own land.
(14 January 1953 to an individual believer)
The three wives of Bahá’u’lláh were:
Nawáb (Asíyih Khánum): married some time between 24 September and 22 October 1835; died 1886; seven children.
Mahd-i-'Ulyá (Fátimih Khánum): born 1828; married 1849; died 1904; six children. She broke the Covenant after the Ascension of Bahá’u’lláh as did all her children. See God Passes By (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 1987), chapter 15.
Gawhar Khánum: married in Baghdád; died during the Ministry of 'Abdu’l-Bahá; one child. …
bahai-library.com/uhj_wives_bahaullah
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PRmerger
Guest
So simultaneously married to 3 women???
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