BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[PRmerger]

*Meger asked:

How is one chosen to be a member of the Universal House of Justice?*

Every five years the National Spiritual Assemblies send delegates to the Baha’i World Centre for the International Baha’i Convention and elect the House of Justice…nine members by secret ballot… there is no campaigning or nominations.

news.bahai.org/story/951

The Convention saw the election of the nine members of the Universal House of Justice for the coming five year term. In a unique electoral process, all forms of campaigning, electioneering and nominations are strictly avoided. Rather, after prayerful reflection, the assembled delegates silently and privately wrote down the names of nine individuals who they felt would be best able to serve on the institution.

news.bahai.org/story/953

Can someone be impeached from the UHoJ?

 

[arthra]

Can someone be impeached from the UHoJ?

From the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice:

1. 
   *] Should any member of the Universal House of Justice commit a sin injurious to the common weal, he may be dismissed from membership by the Universal House of Justice.
   *] The Universal House of Justice may at its discretion declare a vacancy with respect to any member who in its judgement is unable to fulfil the functions of membership.
   *] A member may relinquish his membership on the Universal House of Justice only with the approval of the Universal House of Justice.
   
   bahai-library.com/uhj_constitution
   
   

 

[tonyfish58]

How is one chosen to be a member of the Universal House of Justice?

Now, it appears that Sen does not seem to believe there is a parallel between our Catholic magisterium and the Bahai UHofJ. Who is correct?

The Universal House of Justice is elected by world delegates through a unique process and currently has a 5 year term. It would be a long post to explain, so I have provide a link.

This is a good description of the process - bahai.us/welcome/organization/bahai-elections/ and this is some writings - bahai-library.com/compilation_bahai_elections

I look back at my post and see if I used the wrong word for the Universal House of Justices Roll, may be I should not have used Interpret the writings, I should have used Understanding/Intent of the writings and Authorised Interpretations.

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

This is a thread for questions about the Bahai Faith, so I’ll turn that around: what is your take on the historical accuracy of the miracle at the martyrdom of the Bab?

It turns out, Tabriz is on the way to Golgotha… because that miracle story has been hugely exaggerated through a misunderstanding. The early Iranian Babis and Bahais didn’t know the story of the 750 muskets, and the oldest extant account says it was a platoon from the regiment that formed the firing squad. The first account I know of that includes the idea of a whole regiment being the firing squad comes from a Christian missionary in Edirne, and it seems likely he had simply misunderstood a Persian account, or a translator had misunderstood it for him. Yet something dramatic did happen at the barracks square in Tabriz, and its effects have been felt…

In a similar way, something dramatic did happen in the Church following Jesus’ death. The oldest stories speak of disembodied appearances, such as Paul’s encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. As the stories develop, they become increasingly concrete, and we get the empty tomb stories. I don’t think these are historical, since if the Jerusalem church had known where the empty tomb was from which Jesus had risen, that fact would surely have left traces. So I think the church at Jerusalem simply didn’t know what had happened to Jesus body, and that the empty tomb stories were developed later to support the “spiritual appearances” stories that were already in circulation (and being told, let us remember, by people who had actually had these experiences of encountering Christ).

The scientific-history approach to the origins of religions, and the faith perspective, do not sit comfortably together, and I do not pretend to have squared the circle on this. This applies to Bahai history as it does to Islamic and Christian history. However I do think that Abdu’l-Baha’s approach to the Resurrection, in Some Answered Questions chapter 23, can serve as a model. Abdu’l-Baha knew about the Higher Criticism as it was developing at the time, and he does seem to avoid directly attributing the gospels to their traditional authors, but he does not try to educate his audience about the latest discoveries on the history of the Gospels. He reads the stories as stories, and finds the narrative meaning.

The higher criticism of the New Testament poses a dilemma for anyone who has studied it, and who is also seeking to serve the faithful, to follow the commandment “feed my sheep.” This knowledge about the history and dynamics of development of the New Testament generally does not answer a need among the believers. In fact, to bring it up would just get in the way of serving them. But once one knows this stuff, one cannot un-know it. The answer is to do what Abdu’l-Baha did – not try to teach all that one knows, but rather to hear what is needed and answer the need.

I’ll be honest with you Sen, the truth of the exact circumstances of the martyrdom of the Bab, means absolutely nothing to me and my faith.

I am a firm believer in the conclusions that can be drawn from experiences drawn from the application of the Teachings and the directions being taken currently for the global Bahai community by the Universal House of Justice. Empirically evidenced outcomes from the services rendered by Baha’is is what gives me my confirmation, not any miraculous event.

I’m a firm believer of miraculous “processes” not events.

 

[Servant19]

Do you have one, just one, independent account of the ascension of Baha’u’llah? Why in the word, then, would you believe such a thing?

On the one hand, I hear the Baha’i say that they believe the Bible to be true Scripture. And then they proceed to deny the very historical events and messages it contains. You can’t have it both ways. Either believe it or deny it, but you can’t just choose what you want and throw the rest away.

Why would such a story just be made up? Secular historians may not have recorded this specific event, I doubt many were hanging around Bethlehem at the time, but history has certainly recorded evidence that shows that this was not at all out of character for King Herod, who was a true historical figure. Take a look at the secular rulers mentioned in the biblical texts. They line up perfectly with the secular of historians, each and every time.

I firmly believe extraordinary claims require at least some objective evidence. The ascension of Baha’u’llah was by no means an extraordinary event

 

[Servant19]

So then it is not the position of the Bahai that use of an archaic language ought to give one pause regarding one’s sacred text?

Hi PR, no it is not official Bahai teaching. It is my personal opinion that something is lost in the translation from Aramaic to Koine Greek to English.

 

[daler]

So simultaneously married to 3 women???

PR,
. This must be understood in its cultural context. Baha’u’llah was born into a wealthy family where the norm was 4 wives, to my understanding, who performed expected functions within their cultural roles. In these cultures it was also true that single women were not given the opportunities for independent life, even as in America, for example, women had no property rights or even the right to vote, at that time in history.

. Now consider that the first women in that great region of Islamic society were veiled for over 1200 years and that the first woman to remove the veil was one of the “18 Letters of the Living” who recognized the Bab. This would be equivalent to being one of the 12 disciples of Christ.
. Her name was Tahireh, and she was very well known for her intelligence and poetry. She was martyred in 1852 and her last words were, “You may kill me if you wish, but you cannot stop the emancipation of women.”
. Consider that since the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, Who declared the equality of women and men, how advanced are the rights of women in most nations of the world, which rights are still being asserted and evolving, with Baha’is very often at the forefront.

. You might be interested in the activities of the Tahireh Justice Center:

tahirih.org/

 

[daler]

On the one hand, I hear the Baha’i say that they believe the Bible to be true Scripture. And then they proceed to deny the very historical events and messages it contains. You can’t have it both ways. Either believe it or deny it, but you can’t just choose what you want and throw the rest away.

Steve,
. Let us put this question to you where the stories of Jonah was swallowed by great fish and burped out 3 days later, are told, where it is recorded that Moses turned His staff into a snake, that a snake spoke to Eve, that the universe was created in 6 days and God “took a nap”, so to speak, on the 7th, because He was tuckered out.

. Let us assume that Elijah really was taken up to Heaven (sky?) by a whirlwind (tornado?), and that bodies came out of the ground when Jesus died, and numerous other Bible stories which, if taken literally, make most rational people reject the entire Bible when given an ultimatum such as you have just served on the Baha’is.

. Now out of your high sense of Justice, kindly address us with an answer to your own ultimatum in light of the above Biblical Writings.

. "Either believe it or deny it, but you can’t just choose what you want and throw the rest away. "

PS and don’t just skip over this one… ok?

 

[PRmerger]

PR,
. This must be understood in its cultural context. Baha’u’llah was born into a wealthy family where the norm was 4 wives, to my understanding, who performed expected functions within their cultural roles.

Something as integral to the dignity of women, such as not being part of a foursome, seems to be something that should supercede culture. Especially if one is a manifestation of God.

I do not want to participate in a religion whose founder was so influenced by malevolent cultural norms that he did not have the moral compass to defy this practice.

Ick.

 

[PRmerger]

This is a thread for questions about the Bahai Faith, so I’ll turn that around: what is your take on the historical accuracy of the miracle at the martyrdom of the Bab?

It turns out, Tabriz is on the way to Golgotha… because that miracle story has been hugely exaggerated through a misunderstanding. The early Iranian Babis and Bahais didn’t know the story of the 750 muskets, and the oldest extant account says it was a platoon from the regiment that formed the firing squad. The first account I know of that includes the idea of a whole regiment being the firing squad comes from a Christian missionary in Edirne, and it seems likely he had **simply misunderstood **a Persian account, or a translator had misunderstood it for him. Yet something dramatic did happen at the barracks square in Tabriz, and its effects have been felt…

I just want to get this straight in my head.

You are saying that it not literally true that there were 750 muskets used in this execution. That it is a misunderstanding.

And none of the Bahais here on this forum knew this???

Hence, the appearance of the Bab (Gate) in 1844, or 1260 AH, as the Qa’im took place in Shiraz, Persia, or ancient Elam. He was killed by a firing squad of 750 Muslim soldiers on July 9, 1850 before a crowd of several thousand people, including diplomats of several countries, who witnessed and recorded the event.
By Umar’s words, “Verily, the Book is sufficient unto us” became the cause of most of the bloodshed throughout the history of Islam, including the Martyrdom of the Bab, according to Abdul Baha, who also referred to the Ummayyads as the Beast mentioned in Revelation, and the great red dragon.

The same thing happened after the martyrdom of the Bab. His body riddled from a** firing squad of no less than 750 soldiers **was, along with His companion who had been tied to Him and suspended high upon a wall as a target, was cast into a mote outside the city of Tabriz. The bodies were guarded by soldiers who sole duty was to see that they were not removed. Nevertheless, on the 2nd or 3rd night some of His followers were able to sneak in and remove the bodies under the cover of darkness. It is possible that the soldiers were either distracted or drunk, but as the latter is forbidden to Muslims, unlikely. If it be God’s will, He can accomplish such a thing.

The bodies of the Bab and Anis were taken to the shop of one of the local believers and placed in a box so as to remain unseen. They were later moved to a secure place. My friend, Farzhad, was from Isfahan, where for some years in his grandfather’s home a casket containing the sacred remains of the Bab and His companion were sealed within a wall constructed to hide them.

I like how you have said that the martyrdoms of thousands and the transformation of hearts is not unique to the Baha’i Faith, but is also seen in Judaism and Christianity. That was EXACTLY my point. These things are ABSOLUTELY unique to faiths that have a pure Divine origin. Christianity, Judaism, Bahai all share that commonality. You DO NOT however see these traits in religions founded by false prophets like Moon, Koresh, Gulam, Rael etc etc

I will also if I may, address your concerns about my reference to Jesus’ miracles as a magic show. You know, I have read several accounts of the Bab and Baha’u’llahs miracles, the Bab being seen praying at the riverside, by the prison warden, when He was supposed to be in solitary confinement in the country’s most secure prison, the events surrounding the martyrdom of the Bab which caused the Christian military sergeant to quit his position, etc etc… all of these things, in my opinion are a test for our true proximity to God.

All occurred within the natural world. If science was advanced enough, it would have provided an explanation. They are now history, science will never know. I’m confident that one day, science will be able to replicate all of these miracles. Healing is getting so advanced now, it won’t be long before you can rub your hands together and heal wounds and cancers etc etc utilizing naturally produced compounds from your body. What makes you think that Jesus did not have access to this advanced knowledge of today 2000 years ago?

He was directly linked with God
Similarly Bahaullah has said in several occasions that were any any page in any book, written in the past or in the future, was to be presented to Him, He would be able to read from it at will. These Divine Beings were the Hands of creation, they have access to all that was and has been. THAT is the miracle, the PERSON of the Manifestation of God.

However, what they do bring which is INFINITELY more miraculous is that which pertains to the Divine, that is the Creative Word which, as I have said, can transform a person who feels like a gnat, into a person who feels like an eagle, a person that is “like” Jesus, in virtue and in deed, this is the true resurrection. The gnat of the death into a living, soaring eagle.

I did use the words “my personal opinion”. My personal opinion is that the transformative effects of the Creative Word of God (which is spiritual and divine) is a MUCH MUCH bigger miracle than walking in water (which is natural/supernatural), to such an extent, it makes the **miracle of surviving 750 bullets **all aimed at your head, seem really like a magic show, it’s to entertain the spiritual kids. The spiritual adults, the spiritual giants, look for deeper, more profound things that pertain to true divinity. “God is spirit”

 

[Servant19]

You know PR, this is exactly why history when presented by religious adherents who have a vested interest in the propagation of the Faith should not be used as the BASIS for ones faith.

Again this is my opinion. Was it 750? was it 300? It doesn’t matter, my faith is far removed from the events of history.

Was Jesus born in Bethlehem? was He born in Nazareth? Did Luke’s accounts to marry His birth to Bethlehem for the fulfillment of prophecy really occur or are they conjecture.

The point is, faith should not be born out of events in history. It is the LIVING Word which brings one in union with our Father, and how we go about doing that changes from age to age.

 

[arthra]

Something as integral to the dignity of women, such as not being part of a foursome, seems to be something that should supercede culture. Especially if one is a manifestation of God.

I do not want to participate in a religion whose founder was so influenced by malevolent cultural norms that he did not have the moral compass to defy this practice.

.

Who had the “moral compass” to proclaim the equality of men and women when women couldn’t vote or have much of an education in the nineteenth century? Yes the culture of the society where Baha’u’llah appeared was medieval by comparison to what has been accomplished today.

And among the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is the equality of women and men. The world of humanity has two wings – one is women and the other men. Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and prosperity be attained as they ought to be.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 302

"Since its inception nearly one hundred and fifty years ago the Bahá’í Faith has taught the equality of the sexes. This was when the women’s movement was only beginning its fight for suffrage in the West and such ideas were unheard of in the Middle East. The Bahá’í Faith is the only independent world religion whose Founder has stated unequivocally that women and men are equal.

“Baha’is view equality between the sexes and the full participation of women in every field of human endeavor as essential prerequisites to peace and human progress, and that feminine qualities—such as compassion, nurturing, cooperation and empathy—are essential in creating a peaceful, just, and sustainable world civilization. Inequality between the sexes delays not only the advancement of women, but also the progress of civilization itself.”

bahai.us/welcome/principles-and-practices/equality-of-women-and-men/

The commitment to the rights of women in the Baha’i Faith is a very strong one…

See:

tahirih.org/

 

[arthra]

It seems the size of a regiment is of interest here…

I was scanning my copy of the Historical Dictionary of the Baha’i Faith
and found a facsimile of a letter from Martin Sheil dated 22 July 1850 to the British Foreign Office London Lord Palmerston from a camp near Tehran…on p. 494-495.

Interestingly it refers to an early Western report the martyrdom of the Bab in Tabriz…

The text runs:

Referring to the Bab:

“The founder of this sect has been executed at Tabriz. He was killed by a volley of musketry and his death was on the point of giving his religion a lustre which would have largely increased its proselytes. When the smoke and dust had cleared away after the volley, Bab was not to be seen and the populace proclaimed that he had ascended to the skies. The balls had broken the ropes by which he was bound, but he was dragged from the recess where he was discovered and shot.”

So this was an early record of the martyrdom of the Bab…

A regiment is a title used by some military units. The size of a regiment varies markedly, depending on the country and the arm of service. Historically, in the 17th and 18th centuries, a full-strength regiment was typically supposed to be a thousand men, and was commanded by a colonel.
Today, there is no set size for a unit calling itself a “regiment”, which may be:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regiment

The first regiment that was called on to execute the Bab in the Barracks Square of Tabriz was an Armenian Christian regiment. The next regiment was an Iranian Muslim regiment…

During the Qajar era:

The Qajar palace guard, the Nizam, commanded by a Swedish officer, was a force originally consisting of 2,000 men, although it deteriorated rapidly in numbers because of rivalries.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Army

So did someone go out there and count exactly how many soldiers were in the court yard when the Bab was martyred… I doubt it. Does it really matter whether there was a squad or a regiment? How many Roman soldiers attended the crucifixion of Jesus Christ? we don’t know for sure…

The point is He was crucified…and the Bab was executed by muskets fired in the barracks square of Tabriz on July 9th, 1850 around noon.

"The account of this martyrdom, briefly stated, is as follows: He was suspended in a square as a target and shot to death. This revered Personage foreshadowed the advent of another Soul of Whom He said, “When He cometh He shall reveal greater things unto you.”

~ Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 371

 

[tonyfish58]

I just want to get this straight in my head.

You are saying that it not literally true that there were 750 muskets used in this execution. That it is a misunderstanding.

And none of the Bahais here on this forum knew this???

This is the best site to explain the story that I have found - a minefield of information - Link - paintdrawer.co.uk/david/folders/Spirituality/001=Bahai/Martyrdom%20of%20the%20Bab%20-%20Notes%20on%20Firing%20Squad.htm

It gives the compiled story made up from the many differing accounts and the original sources of this story.

This is an extract that says it all

Different Scenarios

When looking at the differing accounts, it becomes possible to argue for several alternative scenarios, of lesser or greater likelihood, and we’ll never really know for sure now which is the right one; so the version used in the story, has been what appears to stand out as the most likely one.
In Conclusion

It is important always to keep in heart the spiritual rather than the material. In doing so, the material detail of whether Anis died on the first or second volley, and every other material wonder, fades from significance, and the focus is filled with the spirituality of these two great and pure sacrifices, of Anis, and supremely, of the Bab Himself, both in the purity and radiance throughout the days of their lives of suffering, and upon the great day of martyrdom itself.

This is another great site which compiles the Stories including Christ - paintdrawer.co.uk/david/folders/Spirituality/005=Collections/holydays.htm?highlight=18500709&ref=18500709src

Regards Tony

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

This appeared on a Bahai blog today:

hadleyives.blogspot.nl/2013/09/what-is-catholic-church-for.html

 

[PRmerger]

This is a thread for questions about the Bahai Faith, so I’ll turn that around: what is your take on the historical accuracy of the miracle at the martyrdom of the Bab?

It turns out, Tabriz is on the way to Golgotha… because that miracle story has been hugely exaggerated through a misunderstanding. The early Iranian Babis and Bahais didn’t know the story of the 750 muskets, and the oldest extant account says it was a platoon from the regiment that formed the firing squad. The first account I know of that includes the idea of a whole regiment being the firing squad comes from a Christian missionary in Edirne, and it seems likely he had simply misunderstood a Persian account, or a translator had misunderstood it for him. Yet something dramatic did happen at the barracks square in Tabriz, and its effects have been felt…

I think this is huge, Sen. HUGE.

I just did a search of posts here regarding the Bahai faith and there are no Bahais here who seem to know this very, very important fact.

Rather, they are all proclaiming the 750 gunman myth as fact.

Are you not troubled by this?

 

[Servant19]

I think this is huge, Sen. HUGE.

I just did a search of posts here regarding the Bahai faith and there are no Bahais here who seem to know this very, very important fact.

Rather, they are all proclaiming the 750 gunman myth as fact.

Are you not troubled by this?

You see how history cannot form the foundation of ones faith PR?

All these various accounts and all slightly different with slightly different perspectives and understandings, and all eyewitness accounts written and documented almost immediately, and this was only 170 years ago

And these were not accounts by random laymen. The Babs life caused a stir throughout expanses and populations far beyond Persia. People from all sorts of ambassadorial, professional, and academic positions were witness to it, yet there is not one absolutely consistent documentation.

Still convinced about historical accuracy of the Gospels?

Now, the reason why the 750 is stated as fact is simply because it is the official historical document of the Baha’is, named Nabils Narrative which is being cited.

I may be wrong (Baha’is please correct me) but Nabils Narrative was fully ratified as being accurate by Baha’u’llah Himself (which is a big thing) and was translated by Shoghi Effendi, and was written during the lives of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, not 2,3 or 4 decades later. These all contribute to an added factuality to the Narrative

 

[arthra]

Since we’re discussing the martyrdom of the Bab.

The story of Anis (name means “companion”) is a fascinating one! A youth named Mirza Muhammad 'Ali Zunuzi (Anis) decided he would join the Bab on HIs way to being executed!

Nabil’s Narrative has the following:

As He approached the courtyard of the barracks, a youth suddenly leaped forward who, in his eagerness to overtake Him, had forced his way through the crowd, utterly ignoring the risks and perils which such an attempt might involve. His face was haggard, his feet were bare, and his hair dishevelled.

Breathless with excitement and exhausted with fatigue, he flung himself at the feet of the Bab and, seizing the hem of His garment, passionately implored Him: “Send me not from Thee, O Master. Wherever Thou goest, suffer me to follow Thee.” “Muhammad-'Ali,” answered the Bab, “arise, and rest assured that you will be with Me.(1) To-morrow you shall witness what God has decreed.”

Two other companions, unable to contain themselves, rushed forward and assured Him of their unalterable loyalty. These, together with Mirza Muhammad-'Aliy-i-Zunuzi, were seized and placed in the same cell in which the Bab and Siyyid Husayn were confined. …

Sam Khan ordered his men to drive a nail into the pillar that lay between the door of the room that Siyyid Husayn occupied and the entrance to the adjoining one, and to make fast two ropes to that nail, from which the Bab and His companion were to be separately suspended.(1) Mirza Muhammad-'Ali begged Sam Khan to be placed in such a manner that his own body would shield that of the Bab.(2) He was eventually suspended in such a position that his head reposed on the breast of his Master.

Read the whole story here:

bahai-library.com/books/dawnbreakers/chapters/23.html

 

[PRmerger]

This appeared on a Bahai blog today:

hadleyives.blogspot.nl/2013/09/what-is-catholic-church-for.html

A fair and insightful post!

 

[SteveVH]

I firmly believe extraordinary claims require at least some objective evidence. The ascension of Baha’u’llah was by no means an extraordinary event

It would be if you applied the common meaning of “ascension”. This reminds me very much of the Mormon faith. They take commonly understood definitions and meanings of words and, unilaterally, give them a different meaning to fit with their preconceived system of beliefs.

Using the Baha’i meaning, I could easily state that my younger brother who died four years ago “ascended” into heaven. Most of the world (excluding the Baha’i) would wonder if I had ever been taught the meaning of the word.

Baha’u’llah did not “ascend” to heaven. He died and was buried and his remains are still there. I don’t know what happened to his soul, but he will face the same judgment that all people will face at the end. Jesus, however, will not be judged but rather will judge all of humanity, including Baha’u’llah.