BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[eddie_too]

servant19,

were not you the one who wrote that the aramaic language is extinct?

you deny you are ignorant. the implication of such a denial is that when you write about catholic teaching your words would be correct.

is that what you are claiming, that you are not ignorant of the all of the teachings and theology of the catholic church.

do you really believe you are fully knowlegeable about all of the writings of ignatius of antioch, polycarp of smyrna, irenaeus of lyons, and all of the rest?

have you actually read all of the writings of augustine, thomas aquinas, bonaventure and the hundreds of other catholic theologians.

have you read the many encyclicals and other writings of the successors to peter, the first pope?

your words sound humble on occasion, but you cannot hide your haughty attitude toward those who disagree with you.

 

[eddie_too]

to a catholic, the kingdom of God is already on earth in the hearts of those who profess the Lord, Jesus Christ.

only people who think bahaullah knew what he was talking and writing about are awaiting the kingdom of God.

we catholics know that we can enter the kingdom of God at any time.

 

[Servant19]

servant19,

were not you the one who wrote that the aramaic language is extinct?

you deny you are ignorant. the implication of such a denial is that when you write about catholic teaching your words would be correct.

is that what you are claiming, that you are not ignorant of the all of the teachings and theology of the catholic church.

do you really believe you are fully knowlegeable about all of the writings of ignatius of antioch, polycarp of smyrna, irenaeus of lyons, and all of the rest?

have you actually read all of the writings of augustine, thomas aquinas, bonaventure and the hundreds of other catholic theologians.

have you read the many encyclicals and other writings of the successors to peter, the first pope?

your words sound humble on occasion, but you cannot hide your haughty attitude toward those who disagree with you.

Yes I’ve read all of them, five times. In fact any other book you might mention, I’ve also read twice as well!!

Come on man lol…I’m nothing. I understand Aramaic is not TOTALLY extinct, but to all intents and purposes, the actual versions spoke during Jesus’ time is gone, but I’m not here to argue about that!!

I have however read the Bible, which is YOUR Holy Book (as well as mine mind you) and to call me ignorant for using a term used in your Holy Book was a bit below the belt…

…be fair brother

 

[SteveVH]

Actually the reason why I say all this is that when something does occur on the physical plane, which seems contrary to the norm, you call it supernatural, or undefinable, or even divine.

Baha’is call it natural, soon to be definable by science and really nothing divine at all. If it relates to the human heart it is divine. If it relates to the physical universe, it is natural.

The body is sown a natural body, and is raised a spiritual (or divine) body. They are two different scopes of existence. The spirit world and the natural world are not one and the same world.

In terms of supernatural matters. If it occurs in the natural world, it is not supernatural. Give a man from 2000 years ago an iPhone and ask him to call his friend, and he would swear blind it was a supernatural event…natural truth is relative

Ah, I see. No miracles in the Baha’i faith. So your position is that God, the Author and Lord of creation, cannot interact in the physical world without being limited by the physical world. Why do you believe that? Jesus commanded the wind and the sea. He walked on water. He gave site to the blind… You, for some reason cannot bear this and so claim that it is all metaphorical. It is not. We have witnesses.

 

[Servant19]

to a catholic, the kingdom of God is already on earth in the hearts of those who profess the Lord, Jesus Christ.

only people who think bahaullah knew what he was talking and writing about are awaiting the kingdom of God.

we catholics know that we can enter the kingdom of God at any time.

This is wonderful Eddie. I pray that all people hold God dearly in their hearts and selflessly serve others.

Then the inner reality of the Kingdom will become an outer reality

God bless!!

 

[Randy_Carson]

(Okay…just one last post…really.)

Just who is Baha’u’llah, and what did he say about himself?

Bahá’u’lláh declared, as the most recent Manifestation of God, that he was the “Promised One” of all religions, fulfilling the messianic prophecies found in world religions.[1] He stated that his claims to being several messiahs converging in one person were the symbolic, rather than literal, fulfilment of the messianic and eschatological prophecies found in the literature of the major religions. Bahá’u’lláh’s eschatological claims constitute six distinctive messianic identifications: from Judaism, the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father” from the Yuletide prophecy of Isaiah 9:6, the “Lord of Hosts”;** from Christianity, the “Spirit of Truth” or Comforter predicted by Jesus in his farewell discourse of John 14-17 and the return of Christ “in the glory of the Father”**; from Zoroastrianism, the return of Shah Bahram Varjavand, a Zoroastrian messiah predicted in various late Pahlavi texts; from Shi’a Islam the return of the Third Imam, Imam Husayn; from Sunni Islam, the return of Jesus (Isa);[54] and from Bábism, He whom God shall make manifest.
Source: Wikipedia

Baha’u’llah claimed to be six messiahs rolled into one “Manifestation of God.”

So, how do Baha’is view Jesus?

“Jesus Christ is revered in the Baha’i Faith as a Manifestation of God”
Source: bahai.us/2012/04/06/how-bahais-view-christ/

According to the Baha’i, Jesus is also a “Manifestation of God.” But what did Jesus tell us about those who would come later claiming to be Him?

Luke 21:8
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them."

1. Jesus, the “Manifestation of God”, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity and God Incarnate, specifically warned us about being deceived by the false claims of those who would come after Him claiming to be Jesus.
2. Baha’u’llah made just such a claim to be Jesus - the Christ of Christianity.
   Therefore, we reject the claims of the latter manifestation because the former manifestation told us to do so.

Now, I’m really done with this stuff.

 

[daler]

a bahai error that needs correction, the aramaic language is NOT extinct. it is still spoken in the middle east.

In this you are correct. Although it is diminishing, it is spoken mainly in rural or small villages. As people move to more populated areas, the young folks are losing the language.

I have heard an interesting tradition which says that when some one dies, In the Aramaic language and culture, it is common to say: “He is risen”

This refers to their understanding that when one dies, his soul has risen, as in to heaven.
When applied to the death of Jesus, the same phrase is used: “He is risen”

When stories are passed from one language and culture to another, changes occur according to the understanding and usage of the next culture. Certain concepts are altered in the translation of ideas in this process. It is very common and occurs in every translation episode from Aramaic to Greek, or Arabic to English, etc.

Here is where misunderstandings happen, and when they happen, after a time, they become codified in the writings and beliefs held by the receiving population. What was understood in the original culture has been altered or even lost, and procreates ideas which do not correspond to the original. This is proven again and again by linguists and anthropologists. It is quite universal. What is understood originally is no longer what is understood and accepted as doctrine and hence, certain core concepts fundamental to systems of belief rest on foundations which do not correspond to the origin.

 

[Servant19]

Ah, I see. No miracles in the Baha’i faith. So your position is that God, the Author and Lord of creation, cannot interact in the physical world without being limited by the physical world. Why do you believe that? Jesus commanded the wind and the sea. He walked on water. He gave site to the blind… You, for some reason cannot bear this and so claim that it is all metaphorical. It is not. We have witnesses.

That’s all fine Steve. God does interact with His creation. That’s why He placed within you the human heart, the spirit and soul, the dawning place of ALL his majesty

“O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.”

(Bold added by myself)

If the magic show is what your after, there’s plenty of magic. Personally, I find the magic show of seeing a person transform from a gnat into an eagle far far more awe-inspiring. Sure beats walking on water for me. Just my own personal opinion

 

[eddie_too]

servant19,

i apologize for offending you.

however, you are persistently acting as though you have no idea of the catholic doctrines that have developed over the past two milleniums.

you persistently write as though the bible is the be all and end all for understanding the teachings of Jesus.

obviously you are a free human being who can believe and act in any way you choose.

however, it does you no good to act as though our responses to you are unworthy of addressing.

truly, anyone can claim that what history contains is erroneous or misinterpreted. however, unless one has studied the historic documents that can be found, it seems presumptuous to act as though one has sufficient knowledge to instruct others about a history and doctrines with which one is only, at best, slightly knowledgeable.

the catholic doctrines of atonement, original sin, heaven, hell, the Incarnation, the Immaculate Conception, salvation, redemption, etc., etc., etc. have been discussed, debated and written about for centuries. the understanding of these mysteries grows with study.

i understand you are enamored with the teachings of bahaullah. from what i have read of bahaullah’s writings, he was sincere and wanted to serve mankind. he had understandings of reality that are unique to him. however, what you need to ponder or at least provide to us is what does bahaullah give mankind that Jesus had not already given; and, furthermore, what did Jesus give that bahaullah did not give.

 

[Servant19]

(Okay…just one last post…really.)

Just who is Baha’u’llah, and what did he say about himself?

Bahá’u’lláh declared, as the most recent Manifestation of God, that he was the “Promised One” of all religions, fulfilling the messianic prophecies found in world religions.[1] He stated that his claims to being several messiahs converging in one person were the symbolic, rather than literal, fulfilment of the messianic and eschatological prophecies found in the literature of the major religions. Bahá’u’lláh’s eschatological claims constitute six distinctive messianic identifications: from Judaism, the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father” from the Yuletide prophecy of Isaiah 9:6, the “Lord of Hosts”;** from Christianity, the “Spirit of Truth” or Comforter predicted by Jesus in his farewell discourse of John 14-17 and the return of Christ “in the glory of the Father”**; from Zoroastrianism, the return of Shah Bahram Varjavand, a Zoroastrian messiah predicted in various late Pahlavi texts; from Shi’a Islam the return of the Third Imam, Imam Husayn; from Sunni Islam, the return of Jesus (Isa);[54] and from Bábism, He whom God shall make manifest.
Source: Wikipedia

Baha’u’llah claimed to be six messiahs rolled into one “Manifestation of God.”

So, how do Baha’is view Jesus?

“Jesus Christ is revered in the Baha’i Faith as a Manifestation of God”
Source: bahai.us/2012/04/06/how-bahais-view-christ/

According to the Baha’i, Jesus is also a “Manifestation of God.” But what did Jesus tell us about those who would come later claiming to be Him?

Luke 21:8
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them."

1. Jesus, the “Manifestation of God”, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity and God Incarnate, specifically warned us about being deceived by the false claims of those who would come after Him claiming to be Jesus.
2. Baha’u’llah made just such a claim to be Jesus - the Christ of Christianity.
   Therefore, we reject the claims of the latter manifestation because the former manifestation told us to do so.

Now, I’m really done with this stuff.

Baha’u’llah came with a New Name, Randy.

Many have come in Jesus’ name, and claimed to be Jesus for sure.

So how would you know that when Jesus Returns, that it really is Jesus?
Do you know what He looks like?
Maybe more miraculous events that will rob you of your free will, in which case, what purpose does faith have in a human being?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Baha’u’llah came with a New Name, Randy.

Many have come in Jesus’ name, and claimed to be Jesus for sure.

So how would you know that when Jesus Returns, that it really is Jesus?
Do you know what He looks like?
Maybe more miraculous events that will rob you of your free will, in which case, what purpose does faith have in a human being?

John 10:26-28(KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Servant19]

servant19,

i apologize for offending you.

however, you are persistently acting as though you have no idea of the catholic doctrines that have developed over the past two milleniums.

you persistently write as though the bible is the be all and end all for understanding the teachings of Jesus.

obviously you are a free human being who can believe and act in any way you choose.

however, it does you no good to act as though our responses to you are unworthy of addressing.

truly, anyone can claim that what history contains is erroneous or misinterpreted. however, unless one has studied the historic documents that can be found, it seems presumptuous to act as though one has sufficient knowledge to instruct others about a history and doctrines with which one is only, at best, slightly knowledgeable.

the catholic doctrines of atonement, original sin, heaven, hell, the Incarnation, the Immaculate Conception, salvation, redemption, etc., etc., etc. have been discussed, debated and written about for centuries. the understanding of these mysteries grows with study.

i understand you are enamored with the teachings of bahaullah. from what i have read of bahaullah’s writings, he was sincere and wanted to serve mankind. he had understandings of reality that are unique to him. however, what you need to ponder or at least provide to us is what does bahaullah give mankind that Jesus had not already given; and, furthermore, what did Jesus give that bahaullah did not give.

God bless you Eddie, that was a very sincere post, and it touched me greatly

I will ponder the content of this post of yours more while I sleep. It is past midnight here in Australia and I feel my typing faculties are deserting me.

I hope some of the other Baha’is will address all your points which you raise, and if not, I promise you, it will be this touching post if yours that I will address tomorrow

God bless, and I am so overjoyed to have connected with you on a deeper level tonight
Blessings again!!

 

[Servant19]

John 10:26-28(KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I’ll let daler address this post Randy, it’s his favourite verse

G’night y’all !!!

Prayers and blessings to you all

 

[daler]

Yep. And the language that your holy leaders wrote in may be extinct in a few centuries.

It is highly improbable that Arabic, or even Farsi, will be extinct in a few centuries.

There are approximately 30,000 tablets written in the hand of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, or their amanuensis, retained in the Baha’i international archives, in the original.

Would that we had even a single letter written in the hand of Jesus, or Moses. All we have, unfortunately, are oral accounts finally written down decades later, which accounts vary according to the memories of the various persons present, or more often, not personally present, during the life of Christ. These variations color the precise dialogues which took place, as evidenced by the Gospel writers.

This does not mean that the “essence”, or essential truths are not there, for they are. It simply speaks to the variations of human understanding and recollections, in addition to conceptual differences naturally altered in going from the original conversations to the Greek, which is a known problem to Biblical scholars, who struggle with it to this day, each one interpreting something new according their own “inspiration” and personal opinions.

 

[eddie_too]

it has been my experience that it is far easier to get better understanding of another’s thoughts through their speech than through their writing.

it has also been my experience that it is far easier to convey my thoughts accurately to another person through speech than it is through writing.

Jesus knew this about communication.

who would need teachers if reading is all that is necessary for learning?

 

[daler]

John 10:26-28(KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Randy,
. First of all, please understand that the physical identity, personality, and DNA of Baha’u’llah is not the physical, personality, and DNA of Jesus. He did not make that claim and Baha’is do not believe that Jesus and Baha’u’llah are the same Person.

. Second, what should be clarified is that the Manifestations of God each have their own individuality, time and place in which They live. They speak that which God bids Them to speak according to His will, not Their own.

. Third, all men have the capacity to recognize God’s voice and respond to it, either turning towards Him or away, and that recognition of His Manifestations is recognition of God, and turning away from His Manifestations is turning away from God.

. Baha’is “hear His voice” in the following:

. "Tear asunder, in My Name, the veils that have grievously blinded your vision, and, through the power born of your belief in the unity of God, scatter the idols of vain imitation. Enter, then, the holy paradise of the good-pleasure of the All-Merciful. Sanctify your souls from whatsoever is not of God, and taste ye the sweetness of rest within the pale of His vast and mighty Revelation, and beneath the shadow of His supreme and infallible authority. Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men.

. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.

. This is one of the verities that lie enshrined in My Revelation—a verity which I have revealed in all the heavenly Books, which I have caused the Tongue of Grandeur to utter, and the Pen of Power to inscribe. Ponder a while thereon, that with both your inner and outer eye, ye may perceive the subtleties of Divine wisdom and discover the gems of heavenly knowledge which, in clear and weighty language, I have revealed in this exalted and incorruptible Tablet, and that ye may not stray far from the All-Highest Throne, from the Tree beyond which there is no passing, from the Habitation of everlasting might and glory.

. The signs of God shine as manifest and resplendent as the sun amidst the works of His creatures. Whatsoever proceedeth from Him is apart, and will always remain distinguished, from the inventions of men. From the Source of His knowledge countless Luminaries of learning and wisdom have risen, and out of the Paradise of His Pen the breath of the All-Merciful hath continually been wafted to the hearts and souls of men. Happy are they that have recognized this truth."

Baha’u’llah

 

[eddie_too]

why do the bahai believe that what bahaullah wrote and said came from God?

 

[daler]

it has been my experience that it is far easier to get better understanding of another’s thoughts through their speech than through their writing.

it has also been my experience that it is far easier to convey my thoughts accurately to another person through speech than it is through writing.

Jesus knew this about communication.

who would need teachers if reading is all that is necessary for learning?

Yes, Eddie, I would agree with you that when we do not have the opportunity to hear the tone, the inflections, and then even the facial expressions of each other, there exists a gap which too often leaves room for sometimes superimposing meaning and intent which the other did not intend.

The ability to articulate with precision and eloquence in both speech and writing, which is more difficult, is a very sophisticated art of communication. Not only does it require these abilities on the part of the one communicating, but the one who is hearing or reading the speech or words of the speaker.

For Baha’is, what is apparent is this exquisite eloquence and precision in the use of language articulated by Baha’u’llah, Who was given only a very elementary level of education. The same is true of the Bab. His teacher sent Him home to his father saying that His knowledge far exceeds my own. This, at perhaps age 8 or thereabouts.

We believe that the knowledge of the Manifestations of God, including Jesus, is innate, untaught, and that human learning played no part in the Message they delivered to mankind. Their Writings stand on their own. The Words of Jesus are unlike the words of normal men, as the Bible clearly states. Men were astounded at His speech. The same is true of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

 

[SteveVH]

If the magic show is what your after, there’s plenty of magic. Personally, I find the magic show of seeing a person transform from a gnat into an eagle far far more awe-inspiring. Sure beats walking on water for me. Just my own personal opinion

Now you have gone too far. You are now mocking the holy miracles of Jesus Christ as nothing more than a magic show. This is extremely offensive to Catholics in whose house you are a guest. Jesus never performed a miracle that did not have a deeper and more profound spiritual effect. His healing of one’s body was a sign of the interior healing of that person’s soul. But it was a real physical healing just as it was a real spiritual healing, not a magic show. How dare you mock the holy works of God.

Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, “We have seen remarkable things today.” (Luke 5:22-26)

 

[eddie_too]

stevevh,

i do not think the bahai teachings on sin in any way resemble what Jesus taught about sin.

it IS totally absurd to write off all of the Lord’s miracles as the reporting of dupes as the bahai do.

but, the bahai are a non-christian religion, even more so than the mormons.

ask yourself, how else could a man claim spiritual authority after Pentecost Sunday without proclaiming that Jesus was not the Incarnate Word.

bahaullah was not stupid. he knew his teachings must diminish the teachings of Jesus if bahaullah’s teachings were to receive any credibility.

i am not saying bahaullah was a hypocrite or a charlatan. i am saying bahaullah could not have claimed spiritual authority if he believed in Christ.