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doormouse73
Guest
and be as humble as to wash peoples feet,become a servant for them…
- Status
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doormouse73
Guest
@ eddie too
bang on the button…
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arthra
Guest
Rinnie wrote:
What concrete can you tell me about your great leader. No just words.
My comment:
What concrete indeed…
Actually we’ll have to use words here to communicate …
*Those who do most good use fewest words concerning their actions.
The children of God do the works without boasting, obeying His laws.*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 16
*When the prophets of God appear upon this earth, their validity is established by means of certain proofs.
One of the proofs is through the fulfillment of former prophecies,
the second proofs are their creative words and phrases which salute the hearts of humanity,
the third are their deeds
and the fourth are their teachings.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 42
A detailed account of the life of Baha’u’llah is online at
peyman.info/cl/index.html?home=H
What concrete can you tell me about your great leader. No just words.
My comment:
What concrete indeed…
Actually we’ll have to use words here to communicate …
*Those who do most good use fewest words concerning their actions.
The children of God do the works without boasting, obeying His laws.*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 16
*When the prophets of God appear upon this earth, their validity is established by means of certain proofs.
One of the proofs is through the fulfillment of former prophecies,
the second proofs are their creative words and phrases which salute the hearts of humanity,
the third are their deeds
and the fourth are their teachings.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 42
A detailed account of the life of Baha’u’llah is online at
peyman.info/cl/index.html?home=H
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SteveVH
Guest
On this, we agree.
Nothing more than Christian or Jewish martyrs. IOW not unique.
Nothing more than what Christians have been doing for 2000 years. IOW not unique.
You know, I have watched your videos and read your links and I cannot for the life of me see what is unique in your communities. The Catholic Church has been building communities and helping the entire world for as long as it has existed.
So, for the umpteenth time, please tell me in your own words what is so unique about the communities being built by the Baha’i? Please, no more videos or quotes. Just explain to me, in your own words, the wonderful things that are so unique the Baha’i communities?
Thanks.
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arthra
Guest
Steve wrote:
Please, no more videos or quotes. Just explain to me, in your own words, the wonderful things that are so unique the Baha’i communities?
Steve:
Off hand I would say Baha’i communities offer diversity and emphasis on the oneness of humanity… I think for even small Baha’i communities there is great diversity among us…so we have Baha’is of Christian, Muslim and Jewish backgrounds along with many others… They reflect the diversity of the larger community in one place…without the class, racial and religious divisions and prejudices.
bahai.org/worldwide-community/national-communities/
Please, no more videos or quotes. Just explain to me, in your own words, the wonderful things that are so unique the Baha’i communities?
Steve:
Off hand I would say Baha’i communities offer diversity and emphasis on the oneness of humanity… I think for even small Baha’i communities there is great diversity among us…so we have Baha’is of Christian, Muslim and Jewish backgrounds along with many others… They reflect the diversity of the larger community in one place…without the class, racial and religious divisions and prejudices.
bahai.org/worldwide-community/national-communities/
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PRmerger
Guest
Wow.If the magic show is what your after, there’s plenty of magic. Personally, I find the magic show of seeing a person transform from a gnat into an eagle far far more awe-inspiring. Sure beats walking on water for me. Just my own personal opinion
This is most disrespectful.
Baha’i friends, I suggest you counsel your brother Baha’i here and tell him to cease and desist this mocking spirit, else he will soon find himself banned or suspended.
It is good for him to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics who are posing questions to him that are making him squirm. Perhaps it is this realization that his beliefs are not holding up to scrutiny that makes him discomfited and his reaction is to respond in such a contemptuous manner.
I dunno.
But whatever the case, it is not permitted to present contempt for Christianity here on the CAFs and if you do not wish to see him leave, I suggest you make it known to him that he must change his modus.
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SteveVH
Guest
So your uniqueness is based upon diversity? I can understand no religious division in a community where everyone is of the same religion (Baha’i). There is no community made of human beings, however, that is free from personal prejudice and other human weaknesses. It might sound good, but people are people in the end.Steve wrote:
Please, no more videos or quotes. Just explain to me, in your own words, the wonderful things that are so unique the Baha’i communities?
Steve:
Off hand I would say Baha’i communities offer diversity and emphasis on the oneness of humanity… I think for even small Baha’i communities there is great diversity among us…so we have Baha’is of Christian, Muslim and Jewish backgrounds along with many others… They reflect the diversity of the larger community in one place…without the class, racial and
religious divisions and prejudices.
bahai.org/worldwide-community/national-communities/
Have you ever been in a Catholic Church? You want to see diversity? We encompass every race and class of people in the world, from every background and culture. And we share one common faith and one common worship and one Lord. Our readings this Sunday will be the same in every Catholic Church in the world. 1.3 billion people meditating on the same Gospel message and becoming one with God and each other through the Eucharist. If you want to see an amazing community, take a close look at the Catholic Church. Look at its fruits; its amazing works of charity, its contribution to all of the world through science, medicine, hospitals, schools, universities, standing up against governments, including our own, for the weak and defenseless. Most importantly, carrying out the command of our Lord by spreading the Gospel to all nations.
So yes, I fail to see the uniqueness of anything the Baha’i are doing. But I do wish you success in building any community in this world that seeks peace and practices charity.
It is becoming a brutal world.
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SteveVH
Guest
Thank you.Wow.
This is most disrespectful.
Baha’i friends, I suggest you counsel your brother Baha’i here and tell him to cease and desist this mocking spirit, else he will soon find himself banned or suspended.
It is good for him to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics who are posing questions to him that are making him squirm. Perhaps it is this realization that his beliefs are not holding up to scrutiny that makes him discomfited and his reaction is to respond in such a contemptuous manner.
I dunno.
But whatever the case, it is not permitted to present contempt for Christianity here on the CAFs and if you do not wish to see him leave, I suggest you make it known to him that he must change his modus.
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PRmerger
Guest
Whether it will or won’t is irrelevant.
My question to you is this: if it is a criterion that one’s religious writings must be written in an extant language, IF Arabic or Farsi is extinct, would you then allow for the dismissal of the Baha’i faith by future cultures?
Yes or no, daler?
I suspect that you are going to say, if you are honest: no. If there is a futuristic culture that does not speak Farsi or Arabic, it is not a reason to dismiss the writings of the Bab.
So it’s a bizarre criterion to use to dismiss the Christian Scriptures because they are not written in the vernacular.
This might be a salient point if you were, again, speaking with Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians.
However, you are on a Catholic forum, and we do not believe that the Word of God was contained only to the written word.
We believe that the Sacred Word was preserved through Oral Tradition.
(Why is this idea that Catholics don’t believe in Scripture Alone so difficult for Baha’is to understand???)
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Servant19
Guest
I like how you have said that the martyrdoms of thousands and the transformation of hearts is not unique to the Baha’i Faith, but is also seen in Judaism and Christianity. That was EXACTLY my point. These things are ABSOLUTELY unique to faiths that have a pure Divine origin. Christianity, Judaism, Bahai all share that commonality. You DO NOT however see these traits in religions founded by false prophets like Moon, Koresh, Gulam, Rael etc etc
I will also if I may, address your concerns about my reference to Jesus’ miracles as a magic show. You know, I have read several accounts of the Bab and Baha’u’llahs miracles, the Bab being seen praying at the riverside, by the prison warden, when He was supposed to be in solitary confinement in the country’s most secure prison, the events surrounding the martyrdom of the Bab which caused the Christian military sergeant to quit his position, etc etc… all of these things, in my opinion are a test for our true proximity to God.
All occurred within the natural world. If science was advanced enough, it would have provided an explanation. They are now history, science will never know. I’m confident that one day, science will be able to replicate all of these miracles. Healing is getting so advanced now, it won’t be long before you can rub your hands together and heal wounds and cancers etc etc utilizing naturally produced compounds from your body. What makes you think that Jesus did not have access to this advanced knowledge of today 2000 years ago?
He was directly linked with God
Similarly Bahaullah has said in several occasions that were any any page in any book, written in the past or in the future, was to be presented to Him, He would be able to read from it at will. These Divine Beings were the Hands of creation, they have access to all that was and has been. THAT is the miracle, the PERSON of the Manifestation of God.
However, what they do bring which is INFINITELY more miraculous is that which pertains to the Divine, that is the Creative Word which, as I have said, can transform a person who feels like a gnat, into a person who feels like an eagle, a person that is “like” Jesus, in virtue and in deed, this is the true resurrection. The gnat of the death into a living, soaring eagle.
I did use the words “my personal opinion”. My personal opinion is that the transformative effects of the Creative Word of God (which is spiritual and divine) is a MUCH MUCH bigger miracle than walking in water (which is natural/supernatural), to such an extent, it makes the miracle of surviving 750 bullets all aimed at your head, seem really like a magic show, it’s to entertain the spiritual kids. The spiritual adults, the spiritual giants, look for deeper, more profound things that pertain to true divinity. “God is spirit”
I will address the “what do Baha’is do” question in another post shortly
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Servant19
Guest
PR, you don’t think there are similar miracles witnessed by Baha’is from the Bab and Baha’u’llah??Wow.
This is most disrespectful.
Baha’i friends, I suggest you counsel your brother Baha’i here and tell him to cease and desist this mocking spirit, else he will soon find himself banned or suspended.
It is good for him to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics who are posing questions to him that are making him squirm. Perhaps it is this realization that his beliefs are not holding up to scrutiny that makes him discomfited and his reaction is to respond in such a contemptuous manner.
I dunno.
But whatever the case, it is not permitted to present contempt for Christianity here on the CAFs and if you do not wish to see him leave, I suggest you make it known to him that he must change his modus.
If I was disrespectful and mocking Jesus, then I was disrespecting and mocking my Beloved, Baha’u’llah. He knows what was in my heart.
It was not a matter presented to mock and deride, but rather a presentation of perspective.
Yes, I speak frankly, and maybe the language nuances are different between you in the US and me in Australia, but my intention is known by God.
Even Jesus Himself layed little to no emphasis on His miracles, and requested it to be kept private. His Message, as well as Baha’u’llah’s, was one of spiritual salvation, not physical healing, or water walking.
Perspective, please…
…and also I would apprecaite you being more charitable with regards to threatening people with being banned. You did it to Little Star and now with me. I stand up and defend my beliefs. If I get banned for it, then so be it, I walk away feeling I have not forsaken my soul
God bless, and again, my intent was perspective.
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tonyfish58
Guest
I like this Eddie - Though the heart can talk without words, listening to someone talk passionately about a subject is always moving. Body signs are also very important and little misunderstandings can be addresses before they fester!
Regards Tony
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tonyfish58
Guest
Eddie, have not gone through the threads, someone may have answered this already.
The way scripture was revealed through Baha’u’llah was quite an amazing thing. When revelation started it flowed fast and constant without pause, so fast indeed that the scribes could barley keep up. This writing when completed would be approved by Baha’u’llah. Whole books were revealed in one sitting
Here is an example of the “Revelation Writing” Link - bahaullah.org/tablets/revelation-writing
“Mirza Aqa Jan (Baha’u’llah’s personal secretary) had a large ink-pot the size of a small bowl. He also had available about ten to twelve pens and large sheets of paper in stacks. In those days all letters that arrived for Baha’u’llah were received by Mirza Aqa Jan. He would bring these into the presence of Baha’u’llah and, having obtained permission, would read them. Afterwards [Baha’u’llah] would direct him to take up his pen and record the tablet that was revealed in reply. . . .Such was the speed with which he used to write the revealed Word that the ink of the first word was scarcely yet dry when the whole page was finished. It seemed as if someone had dipped a lock of hair in the ink and applied it over the whole page.”
Regards Tony
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tonyfish58
Guest
PRmerger - It is most likely our Aussie use of words, I too just think it was a point about miracles being made and there is definitely no disrespect meant.Wow.
This is most disrespectful.
Baha’i friends, I suggest you counsel your brother Baha’i here and tell him to cease and desist this mocking spirit, else he will soon find himself banned or suspended.
It is good for him to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics who are posing questions to him that are making him squirm. Perhaps it is this realization that his beliefs are not holding up to scrutiny that makes him discomfited and his reaction is to respond in such a contemptuous manner.
I dunno.
But whatever the case, it is not permitted to present contempt for Christianity here on the CAFs and if you do not wish to see him leave, I suggest you make it known to him that he must change his modus.
We love Christ with all our heart and souls, it can be no other way, we know He performed Miracles. The point being is that Baha’u’llah has taken them off the table as a proof. Thus we will not recount miracles as a proof of a Prophet.
If we use miracles as poof then we must likewise use them for all the Prophets. Will you except the miracles of Muhammad as Proof that He is a Prophet?
Baha’u’llah says the real Miracle is the change of Heart.
The Bahá’í Writings teach us that if we wish to discover whether any one of the Messengers was in reality a Prophet of God, we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history. The “…first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an Educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a Prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs. We do not need to mention miracles, saying that out of rock water gushed forth, for such miracles and statements may be denied and refused by those who hear them.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 364. Link - bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html
Thus
The miracles of Bahá’u’lláh may not be mentioned for the above reasons. Also they may be described by some as traditions that are liable to both truth and error. Though if we wish to mention the supernatural acts of Bahá’u’lláh, they are numerous. Many Bahá’ís, after the way of Islam, have also related the great miracles that they had, with their own eyes, seen Bahá’u’lláh perform, and the marvels they had heard. They “…are acknowledged in the Orient, and even by some non-Bahá’ís. But these narratives are not decisive proofs and evidences to all; the hearer might perhaps say that this account may not be in accordance with what occurred, for it is known that other sects recount miracles performed by their founders. For instance, the followers of Brahmanism relate miracles. From what evidence may we know that those are false and that these are true? If these are fables, the others also are fables; if these are generally accepted, so also the others are generally accepted. Consequently, these accounts are not satisfactory proofs. Yes, miracles are proofs for the eyewitness only, and even he may regard them not as a miracle but as an enchantment.”
Abdu’l-Bahá, Memorials of the Faithful, p. 50. & ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 37.
God bless and regards Tony
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daler
Guest
Very well said, Tony. I have had many long conversations with my old Lakota friends where no words were spoken. They were especially adept at this.I like this Eddie - Though the heart can talk without words, listening to someone talk passionately about a subject is always moving. Body signs are also very important and little misunderstandings can be addresses before they fester!
Regards Tony
To be in the presence of ancient wisdom, passed down from the days preceding the entrance of Europeans, of whatever religion, onto the scene, has had a profound effect upon my own sense of cultural knowledge of the divine spirit, or Wakan Tanka, translated as the Great Spirit.
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daler
Guest
PR,
. I am not sure why you are missing the point that I have previously made that in going from one language to another, at times, not all the time, but “at times”, something is lost in the translation of ideas. I do not “dismiss” Christian Scriptures, nor do any Baha’is that I have known for over thirty years. That being said, we do allow for ourselves the use of our God given ability to reason, judge with all fairness the sayings of men, and come to logical conclusions according to evidence in accordance with rational processes.
. The translations from the Baha’i Writings from the Arabic or Farsi originals are done with meticulous effort. We “have” the original writings of a Manifestation of God. There are some accounts from witnesses which are “not” given the same weight as that which has been conclusively authenticated.
. When we factor in the “human factor”, the delay in time from the conversations and events, the variation in “remembered” accounts of the Gospels, we clearly recognize their value and essential truths while at the same time can plainly see certain differences by which it becomes obvious that “word for word”, details vary according to the accounts.
. You seem to be threatened by the Baha’i rational approach to approaching Bible Scripture. You previously said in response to the sensible interpretation of the loaves and fishes “miracle” not being a literal act of pulling fish and bread out of the sky, “This is very Catholic” in a post a couple of months ago. It seemed to me that you had “room to reason” on that event, unless I misunderstood you. That is, that as Jesus first asked His disciples to “share” their food, this example set the stage for the 5000 people also sharing their food, Jews with Gentiles, etc, and that food was left over. Not from extra fish and bread dropping out of the sky, but like dinner left over at a giant pot luck supper. The true miracle is the expanding sense of community, the recognition of “Who is My mother. Who is My brother”, or the Good Samaritan coming to the aide of another.
So much of Jesus’ teaching was along this line of raising the conscience latent within people to rise above “traditions” of archaic cultural identification. Yet, when such a story gets passed along from one culture or language to another, it takes on the form of a “miracle” of a material nature, rather than a spiritual significance.
Hence, as so obvious a distortion has taken place in this instance, other misconstrued meanings are open to interpretation following natural errors occurring during the same process of going from one cultural understanding and language to another. This is entirely logical, reasonable, and acceptable to the objective evaluation of events portrayed in Biblical accounts, whether of the Old or New Testament.
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
That is not unique to the Bahai community: the same could be said of the young church. “Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.” (Colossians 3:11). As time goes by we will have fewer Baha’is of Christian, Muslim and Jewish backgrounds, and more of Bahai background. It’s a function of the age of the religion (for universal & inclusive religions such as Christianity, Islam and the Bahai Faith). .Off hand I would say Baha’i communities offer diversity and emphasis on the oneness of humanity… I think for even small Baha’i communities there is great diversity among us…so we have Baha’is of Christian, Muslim and Jewish backgrounds along with many others… They reflect the diversity of the larger community in one place…without the class, racial and religious divisions and prejudices.
bahai.org/worldwide-community/national-communities/
The Bahai community shows the same kind of unity-in-diversity that you see in the Catholic Church. It’s not unique, but it is good. Uniqueness is something I can take or leave, but I always go for goodness. There are two other kinds of diversity you didn’t mention, in one of my favourite verses: the diversity of gifts …
… and the diversity of administrations.
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Servant19
Guest
I generally agree that the concept of unity in diversity is shared by many religions.
What the Bahai religion is primarily engaged in is a sustained process of education and accompaniment in the development of skills and capacities focused on the development of community self-management, under the banner of unity of God, unity of religion and unity of mankind.
Spaces for Bahai consultation are created where decisions are made in a prayerful and reverent environment, for the betterment of all within the community.
There is no indoctrination in this educational process. It revolves around developing capacities for service. These include skills and capacities such as,
What the Bahai religion is primarily engaged in is a sustained process of education and accompaniment in the development of skills and capacities focused on the development of community self-management, under the banner of unity of God, unity of religion and unity of mankind.
Spaces for Bahai consultation are created where decisions are made in a prayerful and reverent environment, for the betterment of all within the community.
There is no indoctrination in this educational process. It revolves around developing capacities for service. These include skills and capacities such as,
- sharing a prayer with a friend or neighbor culminating in hosting your own devotional meeting
- Visiting the community members on a regular basis to study the Word of God, and converse on deeper themes, without a hint of paternalism or patronization
- How to become an effective educator of children and engage them in a spiritual journey of virtuous conduct, and to develop a daily habit of prayer
- How to effectively engage people in the art of storytelling to convey spiritual meaning, and the true meaning of crisis and victory
- How to mentor and empower pre-youth/junior youth into a life of sustained service, exploring the integrative and disintegrative forces of society and how to empower them to align themselves with the integrative forces while providing effective, sustainable solutions to eliminate the forces of disintegration.
- How to become an effective teacher to all peoples
- Fostering the use of arts, literature, intellect pursuits to engage community members to walk along a lifelong path of service
- How to make initial steps to develop a scholarly approach to study of the Word of God.
- Leading an effective family life
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
I think you are barking up the wrong tree here Dale. Yes, something is always lost in translation, but no, the translation of the Bahai scriptures is not easier, or more certain, than the translation of the New Testament. I’ve done both, so I should know. The difficulty is not primarily the age of the text or its language (I am not including Hebrew here), but rather the need to get into a different world-view, and this applies to translating the Bahai writings too. Only with a knowledge of Persian culture and Islamic institutions, theology and history can one translate the Bahai writings, and similarly Greek alone is not enough to translate the New Testament. But someone who is able to learn the skills of translation and the language can also learn the cultural background and the literary norms and so forth of the source culture.
Regardless of the source culture, not all texts are equally easy to translate. The New Testament is largely in simple koine Greek, straight prose, not too difficult (although something is always lost in translation). The same could be said of the Iqan, from the beginning of Baha’u’llah’s ministry, or the tablets such as the Bisharat he wrote in his last years. But what about his Haleh, Haleh, Haleh, or The Sprinkling from the Cloud of Unknowing? You won’t find these in any of the authorised Bahai translations, and perhaps no “authorised” translation will ever be produced. These are a real challenge. And I haven’t yet mentioned the Bab’s esoteric writings. The Haleh Haleh illustrates another factor: such a translation still needs another “translation.” Why is the Beloved cruel? Why is she associated with death, daggers? Who is the Loved One of the Nightingale of La (No)? and if the answer to that seems obvious, who then is “this mortal devotee, this bird of earth and clay.”? If the Bahai scriptures seem to you as a reader to be more accessible, more contemporary, that is because the translators and publishers have concentrated on what is accessible! There’s a whole lot more there that requires just as much background knowledge as the New Testament.
Do you imagine that the Bible translators are any less meticulous, or learned, or skilled? The art of translation is a cumulative tradition: we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us. Bahai scriptural translation is still in its youth, whereas Biblical translation is a mature discipline.
< to be continued…
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Sen_McGlinn
Guest
…
There’s a point that PR Merger has been making, although not explicitly, that you are missing. Your approach to the Bahai Faith is very much a Protestant one. It’s a mixture of Bahai teachings and your background, and that makes the gap between Bahai and Catholic greater than it is in fact. The Guardian wrote several times to the Canadian Bahais in particular of the need to bring Catholics into the Bahai community. Not because we need the numbers, but (in my opinion), because the English-speaking Bahai communities, which consist largely of people with a Protestant take on religion, really need a different perspective. On one occasion he wrote “on this point, [virgin birth] as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church.” Translated, he says: “the Catholics got it right, live with it.”
Your emphasis on the Writings, and their authenticity, supposes that the Bahai Faith is a text-centred religion. But what does Baha’u’llah say:
Related to this is your emphasis on “rational processes.” Fair enough, reason and scripture can give us knowledge, but there’s a chapter in Some Answered Questions in which Abdu’l-Baha talks about “four accepted methods of comprehension” - the senses, reason, scripture, and the Spirit. In my translation, he concludes: "But the Holy Spirit is the sound standard, for in it there is never the least doubt. Those [other methods], are aids to the Holy Spirit, which comes to a person: in it, he attains the stations of certitude.”
So your appeal to reason, or to the greater authenticity of the Bahai writings, or the quality of their translations, etc… aren’t going to convince PR, and they shouldn’t. He could answer that these are secondary matters, “the meeting with God” and “the stations of Certitude” are given by grace, in the Holy Spirit, and one of the places the Spirit works is in the Church as a community of the faithful that extends through time, from Christ and the Apostles to us. And he could quote Bahai writings to prove his point. Abdu’l-Baha says:
There’s a point that PR Merger has been making, although not explicitly, that you are missing. Your approach to the Bahai Faith is very much a Protestant one. It’s a mixture of Bahai teachings and your background, and that makes the gap between Bahai and Catholic greater than it is in fact. The Guardian wrote several times to the Canadian Bahais in particular of the need to bring Catholics into the Bahai community. Not because we need the numbers, but (in my opinion), because the English-speaking Bahai communities, which consist largely of people with a Protestant take on religion, really need a different perspective. On one occasion he wrote “on this point, [virgin birth] as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church.” Translated, he says: “the Catholics got it right, live with it.”
Your emphasis on the Writings, and their authenticity, supposes that the Bahai Faith is a text-centred religion. But what does Baha’u’llah say:
The Bab and Baha’u’llah have a “high theophany” as compared to the Islamic background, or Protestant Christianity. Religious faith in their view centres on devotion to a Person, the reality of the Faith is embodied (incarnated) in a Person. The texts are useful as proofs, they point us towards that Person, but they are not what it’s all about. What is it all about? The “meeting with God” (Arabic: Liqa’) in the form of a human person. As Shoghi Effendi says, “the core of religious faith is that mystic feeling which unites Man with God.” Shoghi Effendi translates the meeting with God with terms such as “the divine Presence” “the countenance of the King” “to meet thy God” “beholding Thy face” and “attaining” or “attainment” to the Presence.
Related to this is your emphasis on “rational processes.” Fair enough, reason and scripture can give us knowledge, but there’s a chapter in Some Answered Questions in which Abdu’l-Baha talks about “four accepted methods of comprehension” - the senses, reason, scripture, and the Spirit. In my translation, he concludes: "But the Holy Spirit is the sound standard, for in it there is never the least doubt. Those [other methods], are aids to the Holy Spirit, which comes to a person: in it, he attains the stations of certitude.”
So your appeal to reason, or to the greater authenticity of the Bahai writings, or the quality of their translations, etc… aren’t going to convince PR, and they shouldn’t. He could answer that these are secondary matters, “the meeting with God” and “the stations of Certitude” are given by grace, in the Holy Spirit, and one of the places the Spirit works is in the Church as a community of the faithful that extends through time, from Christ and the Apostles to us. And he could quote Bahai writings to prove his point. Abdu’l-Baha says:
Various of the Catholic participants in this thread have been asking what is unique, or better, about Bahai, in other words, why would I want to become a Bahai, when I have the Church? And various Bahai respondents have taken the question up, and have been coming up with ideas about what is better or unique about Bahai. But the question should rather be deconstructed: it supposes a great deal, and it leads us towards “My God is Bigger than your god.” Rather than falling into the trap the question poses, we (the Bahai participants) should rather be saying, the Spirit is also at work here, it is doing “a new thing” as Enoch and Isaiah say. It’s exciting, and challenging. It’s like being back in the early church, with a tremendous Fact in front of your face, and a bunch of friends buzzing with ideas about what it might come to mean. Nobody who is participating in the work of the Spirit in the world can fail to be interested in this, but this is not to say that it is the path for everyone:
- Status