BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[PRmerger]

…and also I would apprecaite you being more charitable with regards to threatening people with being banned. You did it to Little Star and now with me. I stand up and defend my beliefs. If I get banned for it, then so be it, I walk away feeling I have not forsaken my soul

If you get banned, Servant, it will not be for defending your beliefs.

It will be for violating forum rules.

You cannot proffer any contempt for Catholicism.

So follow the forum rules and you will not be banned.

Please review them here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2

I see that you have tempered your tone a bit, so that is good.

Continue in that vein, with respect for the Church and for posters, and you won’t get banned or even suspended.

 

[PRmerger]

PR,
. I am not sure why you are missing the point that I have previously made that in going from one language to another, at times, not all the time, but “at times”, something is lost in the translation of ideas. I do not “dismiss” Christian Scriptures, nor do any Baha’is that I have known for over thirty years.

Servant posited that there is something awry with a religion that is originated from an archaic language. (He in fact erroneously proclaimed that it was an extinct language, which, of course, it is not. He just didn’t know that there are millions of folks who still speak Aramaic, but dismissed them, too)

If that is his position, then it would appear that any other culture which does not speak the language of his prophets will have a logical reason to dismiss the Baha’i faith.

So it’s a bizarre objection to make against Christianity.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Servant posited that there is something awry with a religion that is originated from an archaic language. (He in fact erroneously proclaimed that it was an extinct language, which, of course, it is not. He just didn’t know that there are millions of folks who still speak Aramaic, but dismissed them, too)

If that is his position, then it would appear that any other culture which does not speak the language of his prophets will have a logical reason to dismiss the Baha’i faith.

So it’s a bizarre objection to make against Christianity.

It is bizarre, but it’s not Bahai. In fact I don’t think you’ll find any “objection against Christianity” in the Bahai teachings. If you hear one here, it’s just somebody’s personal bug, or you may have misunderstood. In either case, let it pass.

 

[PRmerger]

…

There’s a point that PR Merger has been making, although not explicitly, that you are missing. Your approach to the Bahai Faith is very much a Protestant one. It’s a mixture of Bahai teachings and your background, and that makes the gap between Bahai and Catholic greater than it is in fact. The Guardian wrote several times to the Canadian Bahais in particular of the need to bring Catholics into the Bahai community. Not because we need the numbers, but (in my opinion), because the English-speaking Bahai communities, which consist largely of people with a Protestant take on religion, really need a different perspective. On one occasion he wrote “on this point, [virgin birth] as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church.” Translated, he says: “the Catholics got it right, live with it.”

Egg-zactly!

So your appeal to reason, or to the greater authenticity of the Bahai writings, or the quality of their translations, etc… aren’t going to convince PR, and they shouldn’t. He could answer that these are secondary matters, “the meeting with God” and “the stations of Certitude” are given by grace, in the Holy Spirit, and one of the places the Spirit works is in the Church as a community of the faithful that extends through time, from Christ and the Apostles to us.

Indeed. And through the Sacraments.

 

[SteveVH]

I like how you have said that the martyrdoms of thousands and the transformation of hearts is not unique to the Baha’i Faith, but is also seen in Judaism and Christianity. That was EXACTLY my point. These things are ABSOLUTELY unique to faiths that have a pure Divine origin. Christianity, Judaism, Bahai all share that commonality. You DO NOT however see these traits in religions founded by false prophets like Moon, Koresh, Gulam, Rael etc etc

Good, so we agree that the Baha’i faith is not unique in this respect. I am still waiting for this unique plan; this new way of living that will transform the world that has been proffered more than a few times in this series of threads. Nothing, and I mean nothing that has been presented shows me anything that the world has not seen and already tried. Our salvation is not in men, Servant, it is in Jesus Christ.

I will also if I may, address your concerns about my reference to Jesus’ miracles as a magic show. You know, I have read several accounts of the Bab and Baha’u’llahs miracles, the Bab being seen praying at the riverside, by the prison warden, when He was supposed to be in solitary confinement in the country’s most secure prison, the events surrounding the martyrdom of the Bab which caused the Christian military sergeant to quit his position, etc etc… all of these things, in my opinion are a test for our true proximity to God.

So now, miracles are a test of one’s proximity to God. Before they were nothing more than a magic show.

All occurred within the natural world. If science was advanced enough, it would have provided an explanation.

Servant, the very definition of a miracle is that it cannot be explained by science or human reason. Why? Because it is above science and reason. It is not natural. It is supernatural. Why would you believe that science can ever explain anything out of the natural realm? That is what philosophy and religions are for.

They are now history, science will never know. I’m confident that one day, science will be able to replicate all of these miracles. Healing is getting so advanced now, it won’t be long before you can rub your hands together and heal wounds and cancers etc etc utilizing naturally produced compounds from your body. What makes you think that Jesus did not have access to this advanced knowledge of today 2000 years ago?

So Jesus was just a really smart guy who knew advanced science. They weren’t really miracles. He could just put one over on a relatively ignorant population. If this is true, then Jesus was a charlatan, a fake.

You have no idea of the power and majesty of God. And you have no idea of who Jesus is; God with us; not in some manifestation, but really here with us. It is a shame that you believe it is all up to human advancement in order to bring God’s kingdom to earth.

I’ll tell you what. Why don’t you rub your hands together and bring Baha’u’llah back from the grave, since he apparently can’t do that himself. Then I will believe you.

Similarly Bahaullah has said in several occasions that were any any page in any book, written in the past or in the future, was to be presented to Him, He would be able to read from it at will. These Divine Beings were the Hands of creation, they have access to all that was and has been. THAT is the miracle, the PERSON of the Manifestation of God.

Creation was accomplished through Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity; God himself, not some manifestation of himself. Neither Buddha, nor Muhammad nor Zoroaster nor Baha’u’llah had anything whatsoever to do with creation. They are part of the created not the Creator. Jesus was never created but is eternal.

However, what they do bring which is INFINITELY more miraculous is that which pertains to the Divine, that is the Creative Word which, as I have said, can transform a person who feels like a gnat, into a person who feels like an eagle, a person that is “like” Jesus, in virtue and in deed, this is the true resurrection. The gnat of the death into a living, soaring eagle.

The Creative Word is Jesus, however.

I did use the words “my personal opinion”.

Yes you did. You personally mocked the miraculous works of Jesus Christ. How does that make what you said any better or less offensive?

 

[arthra]

It might be appropriate to mention here some perspective on “miracles” …

Baha’is don’t deny that miracles can occur especially when associated with the Manifestations.

The issue to us is that they are no longer in this day proofs excepts to them who directly receive them…

*Question. – It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer. – The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.

For example, if we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: “Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.” He will also say: “How can we know that the Jews and the Christians 101 speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.” The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absen*

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 99

 

[eddie_too]

the bahai insist that Jesus is not the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.

when encountering bahai believers, teachers, writing and thought, this fact about the is the most relevant to a christian.

to become bahai, one must deny the Incarnate Word.

that is a simple fact. it is not meant to disparage the sincerity of the bahai. in fact, an honest bahai would totally agree with that fact.

a bahai with integrity would make that fact the first presented to a christian when interacting with a christian.

 

[eddie_too]

it is true that PARTS of the bahai teachings are not contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

for example, both teach that God is one.

both teach that God reveals truth to mankind.

both teach that human beings are to strive to live according to the human nature God created.

 

[Servant19]

Hi PR and Sen,

Here is my post that related to an extinct language. It relates to the Traditions being handed down verbally from generation to generation. Where does it say that I think there is something awry with a religion that originated from an archaic language?

If there is anything worthy of my correction, I would be delighted to learn from you both. It most certainly is my own opinion, it is not official Bahai teaching

Plus, to put it in context, it was posted as a response to you, PR, denying the historic events of the Bahai Faith having ever occurred. Personally I find that bizarre.

Again, I’m happy to hear which part of my post is bizarre. Acknowledged Aramaic is not extinct today, but the evolution of languages dictates that what was spoken 2000 years ago is unlikely to be very well understood today, but again I’m happy to be proven incorrect

What is Truth exactly PR?

What evidence is there that Jesus even existed outside of the Gospels? (except for one passing coment in a non-Christian document)

Please don’t see this as a remark to say that I don’t believe Jesus existed, I absolutely do, but authenticity of truth is exponentially increased when there is valid documentation made by more and more independent parties.

Word of mouth, although it CAN be a valid exponent of Truth, does not in any way trump proper documentation, in a language currently being used, by multiple individuals.

I totally agree, even the Baha’i Faith may have lost some authenticity in the 150 years since its inception. Its all so relative.

You care about Truth, but you insist on absolutism on a 2000 year old verbal Tradition using a different language which has been extinct for centuries.

How is that genuine seeking of Truth?

All we can humbly say and do, is to observe what has been repeated from one religion to another, what are the similarities in all religions? What are the points of unity which enhance the human spirit, bring about wellbeing and prosperity for all?
These are independent sources of Truth…

 

[arthra]

the bahai insist that Jesus is not the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.

when encountering bahai believers, teachers, writing and thought, this fact about the is the most relevant to a christian.

to become bahai, one must deny the Incarnate Word.

that is a simple fact. it is not meant to disparage the sincerity of the bahai. in fact, an honest bahai would totally agree with that fact.

a bahai with integrity would make that fact the first presented to a christian when interacting with a christian.

Eddie,

Baha’is don’t claim to be Christians and yes Baha’is do not believe God incarnates in the flesh!

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

t the evolution of languages dictates that what was spoken 2000 years ago is unlikely to be very well understood today, but again I’m happy to be proven incorrect

This is not correct, as anyone who learned Latin at school can attest. The Latin of Julius Caesar is perfectly readable today. The poets can be translated without any difficulty. On the other hand, part of Baha’u’llah’s writings, and much of the Bab’s writings, is difficult. It depends on the type of text, not the age of the language

 

[SteveVH]

This is not correct, as anyone who learned Latin at school can attest. The Latin of Julius Caesar is perfectly readable today. The poets can be translated without any difficulty. On the other hand, part of Baha’u’llah’s writings, and much of the Bab’s writings, is difficult. It depends on the type of text, not the age of the language

Thank you for your intellectual honesty.

 

[tonyfish58]

Various of the Catholic participants in this thread have been asking what is unique, or better, about Bahai, in other words, why would I want to become a Bahai, when I have the Church? And various Bahai respondents have taken the question up, and have been coming up with ideas about what is better or unique about Bahai. But the question should rather be deconstructed: it supposes a great deal, and it leads us towards “My God is Bigger than your god.” Rather than falling into the trap the question poses, we (the Bahai participants) should rather be saying, the Spirit is also at work here, it is doing “a new thing” as Enoch and Isaiah say. It’s exciting, and challenging. It’s like being back in the early church, with a tremendous Fact in front of your face, and a bunch of friends buzzing with ideas about what it might come to mean. Nobody who is participating in the work of the Spirit in the world can fail to be interested in this, but this is not to say that it is the path for everyone:

Sen - I enjoyed that insight very much. Thank You

That is very useful information re translations. It is a shame that we were not ready for all the revelation from God! It gives us insight into what real unity is…we must be one in Spirit under the Love of God and then get about the task of understanding what is written!

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

it is true that PARTS of the bahai teachings are not contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

for example, both teach that God is one.

both teach that God reveals truth to mankind.

both teach that human beings are to strive to live according to the human nature God created.

eddie - This is the conversations I like having

What unites us? It is God, We can find so much common ground with this thought.

How we reconcile our ways of undertaking that belief, is to me is a hidden Gift from God. The greatest gems and precious stones are formed by the fire of much heat.

The Glory of Christ was born out of Suffering and Sacrifice, there is important messages in these actions.

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Plus, to put it in context, it was posted as a response to you, PR, denying the historic events of the Bahai Faith having ever occurred. Personally I find that bizarre.

What is bizarre is that you have completely missed PR’s point in making that argument.
It is the exact argument that you use against Christian beliefs and when that same argument is turned on Baha’i history and belief you find it bizarre.

Our history is one of the most documented histories in the world and our doctrines have never changed. It can be proven with mountains of evidence. The earliest Christians believed what we believe, not what the Baha’i believe. Jesus really did multiply the loaves and fishes. He didn’t just give everyone a shot of brotherly love so that they would share what they had. He really did rise, body and soul, from the grave and really walked through walls before sharing a meal with them. He didn’t just inspire them with his spiritual presence so that they recognized him amongst each other.

We have the witness of the Apostles, the first leaders of our Church. The teachings of the Apostles were incorporated into all facets of the Church. They are present in its liturgies, in its sacraments, in its doctrines, in its teachings, in its music, in its acts of charity; the very life of the Church, i.e. Sacred Tradition. And yes, also in Sacred Scripture, the Church’s holy Book.

The point is, you cannot question the history of the Church, including that part found in Scripture, and then deny us the right to do the same concerning your faith. I think PR would agree that it is a ridiculous argument. She was only trying to get you to realize that about your own argument. And you never caught on. So we agree, denying the historical events of either the Catholic Church or the Baha’i faith is bizarre. Yes?

Again, I’m happy to hear which part of my post is bizarre. Acknowledged Aramaic is not extinct today, but the evolution of languages dictates that what was spoken 2000 years ago is unlikely to be very well understood today, but again I’m happy to be proven incorrect

It is very well understood by the millions who still speak it today. There are people who can read Greek and Latin and Hebrew very literately as well.

 

[tonyfish58]

the bahai insist that Jesus is not the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.

when encountering bahai believers, teachers, writing and thought, this fact about the is the most relevant to a christian.

to become bahai, one must deny the Incarnate Word.

that is a simple fact. it is not meant to disparage the sincerity of the bahai. in fact, an honest bahai would totally agree with that fact.

a bahai with integrity would make that fact the first presented to a christian when interacting with a christian.

Eddie - As I never came from a deep background of a Faith in Christ, my family being Church of England, I never had a concept of the Trinity. It was not until I found the Baha’i Writings that I became aware of the Three Persons in One.

I see the father (God), The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost (The Holy Spirit). I suppose it is how we come to term with how that works that is the issue. The church having provided an answer for all Catholics.

There are other ways to look at it and that can be discussed if one so wishes.

I have run out of time and look forward to more chats.

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

it is true that PARTS of the bahai teachings are not contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

for example, both teach that God is one.

both teach that God reveals truth to mankind.

both teach that human beings are to strive to live according to the human nature God created.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is truth present in all religions. The Baha’i have much truth, as does Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism… We accept all truth found in other faiths.

But when a faith leads one away from the God who revealed himself to mankind by becoming one of us, then there is great danger, regardless of the other truths this faith may hold. So, while we can rejoice in the truths we have in common, we cannot compromise revealed truth for the sake of a pseudo-unity.

 

[daler]

Good, so we agree that the Baha’i faith is not unique in this respect. I am still waiting for this unique plan; this new way of living that will transform the world

Steve,
. As you have asked this before, and again, let me try and explain as best I can what I think the answer is.

. At the heart of Baha’i belief is the concept of “progressive revelation”, that “All of the Prophets proclaim the same Faith”.

. There are successive stages in the spiritual evolution of humanity which release latent forces according to the times and capacities. The Baha’i view is that at the time of Abraham, for example, the concept of “One God” was essential for humanity, which was immersed in idol worship, to grasp. (This is just a rough sketch)

. At the time of Moses, a further stage of the development of the spiritual community was effected through His revelation of Laws and Commandments which had not been revealed at the time of Abraham, Who had laid the foundation upon which Moses built.

. When Jesus appeared, humanity had digested the Message of Moses, and Abraham before Him, and it was time for a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit and a new Covenant of God was given to men, yet none of the previous prophets were discarded or their positions denied.

. At the appearance of Muhammad a reassertion of the One God of Abraham was asserted and He spoke of a single nation of believers which encompassed a broad array of humanity, transcending limited tribal identities. (again, this is a very rough sketch)

. When the Bab appeared, He announced that the “Prophetic Cycle” which had begun at the time of Adam and extended through the dispensation of Muhammad had ended, in the year 1260 AH, which date is prophesied by Daniel as time, times and a half, referred to by Elias in James 5:17 as 3 1/2 years, and again in Revelation 11:2 and 11:3 as 42 months, a thousand two hundred and threescore days, and Rev 11:11 as 3 days and a half.

. All of these numbers have the same meaning, that is, time is 360, times is 720, and a half is 180, which totals 1260. Three and a half days is 3 X 360 plus 180 = 1260. Again, 42 months of 30 days = 1260.

. The conclusion of the Prophetic Cycle began the Cycle of Fulfillment of all that had been promised about the Day of God foretold in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Holy Books. The Bab was the Gate between these two Cycles, the one closing, the other beginning.

. Baha’u’llah appeared in the year 1280 AH, which number is referred to by Daniel, and is the same year as 1290, also referred to by Daniel, being 1290 years after the declaration of Muhammad. Christ refers us to Daniel for His Second Coming, and cannot be dismissed. That these numbers equate to the prophesies of Daniel, Elias, and Revelation and fit precisely the calendar of Islam automatically sheds light upon the reality of Muhammad.

. So what is unique about the coming of Baha’u’llah is that the day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd promised in all the Holy Books is now the stage in which we find ourselves. The Baha’is recognize this and witness the gathering of all nations and religions into this One Fold.

. The previous religions have all been a part of this process of gathering people together, but in gradual stages throughout the course of human history. So what is unique is not the Baha’i Faith per se, for all religions are a part of this process, but rather that its function is to fulfill that which the Lord of Hosts has summoned mankind to finally become: united as the servants of One God, no longer separated by nation and religions in their separate sub-strata of former stages and identities.

Note: 1260 AH is 1844 AD. 1280 AH is 1863 AD.

1844 AD (1260 AH) is 2300 years from the rebuilding of Jerusalem under Artaxerxes, mentioned by Daniel, whose vision took place in Elam (SW Persia)

Jeremiah said “The Lord shall set His throne in Elam”

The Bab appeared in Elam in 1844 AD, or 1260 AH

Baha’u’llah is also from Persian, appearing in 1863 AD, or 1280 AH

Jesus was crucified, or “cut off”, at the end of 70 weeks, or 490 years, from the beginning of the 2300 days of Daniel, or 457 BC, set for the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

Thus, all of these numbers fit precisely into multiple time and place prophecies.

Additional time and place prophecies confirm these conclusions and are verifiable to all who seek to discover for themselves their meaning and natural outcome.

 

[Servant19]

What is bizarre is that you have completely missed PR’s point in making that argument.
It is the exact argument that you use against Christian beliefs and when that same argument is turned on Baha’i history and belief you find it bizarre.

Our history is one of the most documented histories in the world and our doctrines have never changed. It can be proven with mountains of evidence. The earliest Christians believed what we believe, not what the Baha’i believe. Jesus really did multiply the loaves and fishes. He didn’t just give everyone a shot of brotherly love so that they would share what they had. He really did rise, body and soul, from the grave and really walked through walls before sharing a meal with them. He didn’t just inspire them with his spiritual presence so that they recognized him amongst each other.

We have the witness of the Apostles, the first leaders of our Church. The teachings of the Apostles were incorporated into all facets of the Church. They are present in its liturgies, in its sacraments, in its doctrines, in its teachings, in its music, in its acts of charity; the very life of the Church, i.e. Sacred Tradition. And yes, also in Sacred Scripture, the Church’s holy Book.

The point is, you cannot question the history of the Church, including that part found in Scripture, and then deny us the right to do the same concerning your faith. I think PR would agree that it is a ridiculous argument. She was only trying to get you to realize that about your own argument. And you never caught on. So we agree, denying the historical events of either the Catholic Church or the Baha’i faith is bizarre. Yes?

It is very well understood by the millions who still speak it today. There are people who can read Greek and Latin and Hebrew very literately as well.

I do value the strength and fortitude you display Steve, I really do

For me personally, I have some reservations about the historical accuracy of the Boblival accounts.

For example, when in Matthew it is written

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

…I would suggest that such a supernatural event as having many holy bodies arising out from their graves and walking amongst the people would at least have one, just one, independent record of such an event. There is nothing outside the gospels.

…or…

When in Matthew 2 it is recorded:

Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

…I again would at least expect one external record of this slaughter of all children under 2 years old. This is not even recorded by Josephus.

My point is not trying to be disrespectful, I’m just saying things are not so black and white

 

[daler]

The Catholic Church teaches that there is truth present in all religions. The Baha’i have much truth, as does Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism… We accept all truth found in other faiths.

Steve,
. The number “40” is very significant in prophecy, as in the following:

God told Noah that it will “rain” for 40 days and 40 nights, non-stop
Noah waited 40 days after the flood before exiting the ark.
Moses was on the mountain for 40 days, not once, but twice!
Moses wandered in the wilderness for 40 years
Goliath appeared for 40 days before being killed by David.
Elijah strengthened by one angelic meal went 40 days to Mount Horeb where the Lord passed by and he heard the voice of God
Jonah warned the City of Nineveh they had 40 days until God would overthrow the city.*
The people repented in those 40 days and God spared the city.
Jesus fasted for 40 days
then Jesus appeared for 40 days after His crucifixion, but “only” to those who believed in Him
Muhammad began receiving revelation at the age of 40
Baha’u’llah received revelation for 40 years, from 1852 until His ascension in 1892

Thus, as God told Noah, it “rained” from the Heaven of God’s Revelation for 40 years non-stop, from the Pen of Baha’u’llah, from 1852 through 1892, fulfilling prophecy linked to all of these Biblical accounts.