BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Porknpie]

I think you’re right. There’s nothing wrong with miracles, it is the **demand **for miracles that reveals something about the demanders.

The miracles also reveal much about the miracle worker. In this case, Jesus performed miracles as a way of showing he was who he said he was, the Son Of God, one person of the Divine Trinity. Miracles including healing of the sick, giving sight to the blind, raising the dead, feeding people on a few fish, turning water into wine, having power over nature and of course his own resurrection.

 

[Porknpie]

Personally, it’s not a discussion I would want to start on. Miracle stories are historically dubious, and in the Bahai teachings are downplayed, being valid only for those that witness them. I have a feeling Jesus got a bit irritated with the miracle-talk too:

OK, so miracles aside, what evidence convinces you that Bahai teachings are true?

 

[SteveVH]

These are from Western diplomats and scholars:

Well the sources in bold are from non-Baha’i sources…

At the same time, they seized the Báb and tied him again to the fatal post. This time the execution was effective. Muhammadan justice and ecclesiastical law had asserted themselves. But the crowd, vividly impressed by the spectacle they had witnessed, dispersed slowly, hardly convinced that the Báb was a criminal. After all his crime was only a crime for the legalists and the world is indulgent toward crimes which it does not understand." (M.C. Huart’s “La Religion du Báb,” pp. 3-4.) “An extraordinary thing happened, unique in the annals of the history of humanity: the bullets cut the cords that held the Báb and he fell on his feet without a scratch.” (A. L. M. Nicolas’ “Siyyid Ali-Muhammad dit le Báb,” p. 375.) "By a strange coincidence, the bullet only touched the cords which bound the Báb, they were broken and he felt himself free. Uproar and shouts arose on all sides, no one understanding at first what it was all about." (Ibid., p. 379.)]

(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 514)

M.C. Huart was a French orientalist who wrote an early study of Babism
archive.org/details/8ZSUP92_64

A.L.M. Nichols was a French consular official in Iran

It sounds to me like he is relating stories told to him by Baha’i faithful. Nothing wrong with that but it is not an independent verification. You would think, that out of 750 soldiers who would have been eye witnesses to this event, in a relatively recent period in history, that one or two of them would have said something to the local media or that it would have been such a striking event that the media would have flooded the area looking for people to interview. In fact, the article says that there were 10,000 witnesses. And yet we have one account from a French journalist. When I googled the name M.C. Huart I get one hit, on a Baha’i site.

A.L.M. Nicolas was already a follower of the Bab when he translated his works. Nothing wrong with that either, but he is still a source with a bias.

The whole point being made is that we do not care that you believe what you believe. What we do care about is that you hold no other religion to a standard of proof which you yourselves cannot meet.

 

[SteveVH]

Note that he does not say that Christ taught this, but that the generality of Christians have believed it. This is undoubtedly true, as we have Christians’ books, poems and dramas, and paintings, in which this event is visualized. Among these authors are some church fathers. See for example:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell#Early_Christian_teaching

The only question really is whether “hell” is a correct translation. Some authorities use the word Sheol, to distinguish the quasi-hell of the righteous before Christ’s resurrection from the real-hell of the unrighteous. The word Abdu’l-Baha uses here is jahim, which is “one of the names of hell” (according to Steingass’ Persian dictionary). Persian has many terms for hell, but most of them seem to be synonyms.

The point is that he is criticizing the Christian doctrine of original sin. One does not go about such a thing by criticizing wrong interpretations of the doctrine by ignorant members. One should go the writings of the Church that produced the doctrine.

In other words it would be foolish of me to criticize the Five Precepts Buddhism on the basis of those who do not agree or have a misguided notion concerning them.

 

[SteveVH]

The only question really is whether “hell” is a correct translation. Some authorities use the word Sheol, to distinguish the quasi-hell of the righteous before Christ’s resurrection from the real-hell of the unrighteous. The word Abdu’l-Baha uses here is jahim, which is “one of the names of hell” (according to Steingass’ Persian dictionary). Persian has many terms for hell, but most of them seem to be synonyms.

Without getting into great detail, suffice it to say it has never been a Christian doctrine that Christ entered into and rescued the souls condemned to hell. It is an entirely different place in which the souls of the righteous were waiting for the gates of heaven to be opened, which would not occur until the passion and death of Jesus. This place is called “Sheol” in Hebrew, the place of those awaiting redemption, and is different than “Hell”, from which no one can escape.

The English translation leaves much to be desired. The Apostles Creed states that Christ “descended into hell”. There is no doubt that the translation would make it difficult for one who has no access to Sacred Tradition to interpret these passages and writings correctly. This is why Scripture should never be read unless it is through the lens of the Church that produced it. As long as one correctly understands the doctrine, they are then free to criticize it.

 

[ffg]

The English translation leaves much to be desired. The Apostles Creed states that Christ “descended into hell”. There is no doubt that the translation would make it difficult for one who has no access to Sacred Tradition to interpret these passages and writings correctly. This is why Scripture should never be read unless it is through the lens of the Church that produced it. As long as one correctly understands the doctrine, they are then free to criticize it.

Sitting here I was thinking about the way I say it and said this - he descended to the dead.

Then I found this site: creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm

Which calls it a modern English version vs a Traditional English version.

Either way, as you stated, understanding the purpose of the act helps one move past a translated word.

 

[arthra]

It sounds to me like he is relating stories told to him by Baha’i faithful. Nothing wrong with that but it is not an independent verification. You would think, that out of 750 soldiers who would have been eye witnesses to this event, in a relatively recent period in history, that one or two of them would have said something to the local media or that it would have been such a striking event that the media would have flooded the area looking for people to interview. In fact, the article says that there were 10,000 witnesses. And yet we have one account from a French journalist. When I googled the name M.C. Huart I get one hit, on a Baha’i site.

A.L.M. Nicolas was already a follower of the Bab when he translated his works. Nothing wrong with that either, but he is still a source with a bias.

The whole point being made is that we do not care that you believe what you believe. What we do care about is that you hold no other religion to a standard of proof which you yourselves cannot meet.

Steve:

For myself I don’t recall holding anything about the Gospel records to a standard of proof… We generally accept the Gospels and the Bible as inspired.

We Baha’is are interested in historical notes that have survived… from early in the Baha’i era. So notes by consular sources in Qajar Persia such as the French, British and Russian sources are important.

Bear in mind that as soon as the Faith appeared there were persecutions and many lost their lives. Anyone could be suspected of being a Babi if they spoke favorably about the Cause and many manuscripts were lost or destroyed by those who tried to eradicate it.

For your information M.C. Huart ( Marie-Clément Imbault-Huart) was an orientalist…not just a “French journalist”…

His biography can be found on the Encyclopaedia Iranica site:

iranicaonline.org/articles/huart-clment

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

OK, so miracles aside, what evidence convinces you that Bahai teachings are true?

I feel the Bahai teachings are right for today; they are the things God would have to say to us, if he were talking to us today. And I see a broad congruence between the early Church, early Buddhism, and the Bahai Faith today. It looks like one pattern repeating, with variations for time and place. But mainly, I’m convinced by what Bahais call the confirmations of the spirit, which are individual and subjective and would be meaningless even if they could be communicated.

 

[SteveVH]

I feel the Bahai teachings are right for today; they are the things God would have to say to us, if he were talking to us today. And I see a broad congruence between the early Church… and the Bahai Faith today.

In what way? There is certainly nothing similar between Baha’i beliefs and the beliefs of the early Christian (Catholic) Church. Are you maybe speaking of the persecution of both Baha’i and Christians?

But mainly, I’m convinced by what Bahais call the confirmations of the spirit, which are individual and subjective and would be meaningless even if they could be communicated.

This sounds very much like the “burning in the bosom” expressed by Mormons.

 

[Porknpie]

I feel the Bahai teachings are right for today; they are the things God would have to say to us, if he were talking to us today. And I see a broad congruence between the early Church, early Buddhism, and the Bahai Faith today. It looks like one pattern repeating, with variations for time and place. But mainly, I’m convinced by what Bahais call the confirmations of the spirit, which are individual and subjective and would be meaningless even if they could be communicated.

How do you get a confirmation of the Spirit?

40,000 pastors of various Christian denominations would say the same thing…all believing something different, led by their personal interpretation of the bible and the spirit. This is evidence that one can be misguided by trusting feelings and biblical interpretation divorced from the Church that wrote it. Catholics rely on the deposit of faith…the Written Word of God and Tradition as passed down from the apostles. We reject that which conflicts with this deposit of faith, no matter what the source…faith and reason not feelings is our guide.

 

[frazelle09]

i suppose much of reason why i found the Bahá´i Faith to be acceptable was because of the stories that my Bahá’í teacher, Tom Belshaw, of Indianapolis, would tell us. He inspired us with the stories of sacrifices the Bahá’ís in the deep South as they arose to put into practice Baha’u’lláh’s teachings of one human race, the sufferings of the early martyrs in Iran and the travails of the believers in South Africa who had to sneak off into the woods hold Feasts at which both black and white could attend.

i was also very impressed when i went to my first Bahá’í fireside (an informal get-together for questions and answers) and the door was answered by a black woman.

Or when i went to my first Feast in Indy and saw the power of the Holy Spirit manifested in a meeting of people of different races and nationalities, all congregating in love and unity.

More recently, some of the junior youth from my study circle came back from one of the 114 youth conferences held all over the world to which Bahá’í as well as non-Bahá’ís attended and said - “You know, we could always tell who the Bahá’ís were. They were the ones who were always helpful and who made us feel welcome and at home and who were always ready to lend a helping hand.”

Have a beautiful afternoon!

 

[arthra]

I know above Steve mentioned that A.L.M. Nichols was a Babi… well it happened as he was translating the works of the Bab from Persian into French and in the process he became enamored of the Bab.

"I was helped in my work by a young Persian, and each day we would go in the afternoon for a walk outside the town, leaving by the Shimran gate. The purity of the air, the serenity, the mildness of the temperature, and in certain seasons, the perfume of the acacias, predisposed my soul to peace and gentleness. My reflections on the strange book [The Seven Proofs by the Báb] that I had translated, filled me with a kind of intoxication and I became, little by little, profoundly and uniquely a Bábí. The more I immersed myself in these reflections, the more I admired the greatness of the genius of him who, born in Shíraz, had dreamt of uplifting the Muslim world.".

A little about Nicholas:

Nicolas’s father, J. B. Nicolas, was in the French Consular Service in Persia, and Nicolas himself was born at Rasht in Gilan in 1864. According to his own statement, he could speak Persian and Russian even before he learnt his native French. Like his father, he joined the French Consular Service and spent most of his working life in Persia.

… Here is what he told a lady years later after the release of the Dawnbreakers or “Nabil’s Narrative” translated by Shoghi Effendi:

“I do not know how to thank you nor how to express the joy that floods my heart. So it is necessary not only to admit but to love and admire the Báb. Poor great Prophet, born in the heart of Persia, without any means of instruction, and who, alone in the world, encircled by enemies, succeeds by the force of his genius in creating a universal and wise religion. That Bahá’u’lláh succeeded Him eventually may be, but I want people to admire the sublimity of the Báb, who has, moreover, paid with his life, with his blood, for the reforms he preached. Cite me another similar example. At last, I can die in peace. Glory be to Shoghi Effendi who has calmed my torment and my anxieties, glory be to him who recognizes the worth of Siyyid 'Alí-Muhammad, the Báb. I am so happy that I kiss your hands that have written my address on the envelope which carried Shoghi’s message. Thank you, Mademoiselle; thank you from the depths of my heart.”

So I don’t know that he would actually be a Babi but he was filled with admiration for the Bab in translating His Writing:

 

[PRmerger]

I think you may be taking this verse out of context, friend.

It is not the sentiment that miracles ought to be “downplayed” that the sacred writer is professing . Rather, it is the demand for them that Jesus is irritated with.

It is always good to read a few verses before and a few verses after, before one uses the Scriptures.

The Demand for a Sign.

• The Pharisees came forward and began to argue with him,b seeking from him a sign from heaven to test him.

He sighed from the depth of his spirit and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Amen, I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

Please note that this occurs textually right after the Lord performs…a miracle.

I think you’re right.

My favorite 4 words.

 

[daler]

What is the Baha’i view on animals and souls?

I know it sounds strange, but my husbands close friend (Jewish) recently married a Baha’i lady. Before they met and married, he had a rather spectacularly intelligent cat. The cat had cancer and no one knew. The Baha’i lady has an alter in their home with a picture of the prophet (sorry, I don’t know much about the faith or the prophets involved) and the cat started literally bowing and then sleeping under the picture. He was very interested in any devotions the human practiced. A few weeks after the behavior was noticed, the cat stopped eating, went into a decline, was taken to the vet, cancer was diagnosed, incurable and advanced, and the cat was humanely euthanized.

Anywho, we all loved this rather extraordinary cat and talked about him a lot after his passing. He was really quite amazing and I could tell stories of him for hours, lol. We wondered if maybe the cat sensed something spiritual and responded to it. Like maybe the cat had some sort of relationship with the divine. Wondering what the Baha’i thoughts on that theory would be. Like, could the cat have a soul according to the Baha’i faith? Could he have gone to heaven?

MJ,
. My cat often circles around me when I pray the Long Obligatory Prayer during which there are positions of kneeling for parts of the prayer. Perhaps when our own spirits are attuned properly to the Spirit, the animals pick up on that and naturally respond. My cat appears to be especially affectionate during the prayer, brushing up against me and meowing a lot, maybe praying in cat talk…

. Most likely the photograph you mention is one of Abdul Baha, the son of Baha’u’llah, which is quite common in Baha’i homes. We do not display portraits of the Bab or Baha’u’llah in our homes.

 

[daler]

How do you get a confirmation of the Spirit?

40,000 pastors of various Christian denominations would say the same thing…all believing something different, led by their personal interpretation of the bible and the spirit. This is evidence that one can be misguided by trusting feelings and biblical interpretation divorced from the Church that wrote it. Catholics rely on the deposit of faith…the Written Word of God and Tradition as passed down from the apostles. We reject that which conflicts with this deposit of faith, no matter what the source…faith and reason not feelings is our guide.

Pork,
. It is the “same spirit” that we are talking about, and I have felt that spirit among many of my Christian friends of whatever denomination, among Native Americans in their own traditional sacred ceremonies, people of other Faiths, and at times, very strongly among the Baha’is and at the Baha’i Shrines in the Holy Land.

. If you consider crossing the Sahara desert (which I did and you are very thirsty (which I was and you come to an Oasis (yeah, that, too there is just something especially refreshing about the taste of pure water.

. It is the same with the Holy Spirit. Although some have only experienced it in a single setting familiar to them, such as their own church or among “their own” believers, for those who are open to receiving the Holy Spirit, God has given it to people of most, if not all, lands and cultures. After a short while, you begin to recognize it as such.

. You could also say that it is like a river, flowing out from a Fountain, and that there are a number of Fountains from which this underground river emerges. On the farm, we had artesian wells that would bubble up along a great hillside south of the pasture. There was one source for these various springs, which all delivered the best water you could ever drink.

 

[PRmerger]

The point is that he is criticizing the Christian doctrine of original sin. One does not go about such a thing by criticizing wrong interpretations of the doctrine by ignorant members. One should go the writings of the Church that produced the doctrine.

In other words it would be foolish of me to criticize the Five Precepts Buddhism on the basis of those who do not agree or have a misguided notion concerning them.

Absolutely spot on, Steve.

 

[daler]

. Your prophet hasn’t done anything, his coming hasn’t changed anything, mankind is just as sinful and greedy as it ever was.

There is a cycle in human history, of human failure and the ever inescapable presence of evil which you believe will be solved by some utoptian society living under the rule of your prophet.

So you say there is progress, but thats simply because you want to see it, …

Ignatian,
. It would seem to me that by the same standards you are judging Baha’u’llah that clearly you have regarded Jesus as an utter failure. There is no way around this for you. You profess to believe in One Who has failed to cure humanity of its inherent ills.

. If you are at all familiar with the various prophecies in the Bible which speak of the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth, the Day of the Lord, and that “Of the increase of “His” government there shall be no end”, then you know that it is coming eventually, right?

. Do I “want to see it?” You betcha!

 

[SteveVH]

Steve:

For myself I don’t recall holding anything about the Gospel records to a standard of proof…

People rising from their graves on Good Friday… The bodily resurrection of Jesus… The multiplication of the loaves and fishes… It may not have been you, arthra, but these “miracles” have definitely been challenged and questioned as to independent, historical verification.

We generally accept the Gospels and the Bible as inspired.

I have no idea what that means. How do you choose, generally, as to what you accept and what you reject, and by what authority?

We Baha’is are interested in historical notes that have survived… from early in the Baha’i era. So notes by consular sources in Qajar Persia such as the French, British and Russian sources are important.

Bear in mind that as soon as the Faith appeared there were persecutions and many lost their lives. Anyone could be suspected of being a Babi if they spoke favorably about the Cause and many manuscripts were lost or destroyed by those who tried to eradicate it.

Understood.

For your information M.C. Huart ( Marie-Clément Imbault-Huart) was an orientalist…not just a “French journalist”…

Ok.

 

[SteveVH]

Absolutely spot on, Steve.

My favorite 4 words.

 

[Servant19]

The point is that he is criticizing the Christian doctrine of original sin. One does not go about such a thing by criticizing wrong interpretations of the doctrine by ignorant members. One should go the writings of the Church that produced the doctrine.

In other words it would be foolish of me to criticize the Five Precepts Buddhism on the basis of those who do not agree or have a misguided notion concerning them.

Steve, Abdu’l-Baha is not giving a critical analysis of the meaning of original sin.

From my understanding he is giving a commentary on how the true meaning of certain spiritual concepts can be misunderstood. As Sen has pointed out, even by the early Church Fathers.

Precise reading of the Baha’i Writings is incumbent before one criticizes it and pats each other on the back in an ego-boosting tupperware party