Baha'i V

[Vouthon]

Another issue is that we cannot study others religions for the sake of disproving them. We should make earnest attempts to learn about other’s beliefs and then decide for ourselves. We cannot expect people to do this with our bekiefs while not doing the same thing for others. I see this commonly in Christianity and Islam: “Why are you just assuming a religion is wrong.” “Because I know my religion is correct.”

But is this not what the Baha’i Faith and Church teach officially my friend?

“…A just appraisal of other religious traditions normally presupposes close contact with them. This implies, besides theoretical knowledge, practical experience of interreligious dialogue with the followers of these traditions…These traditions are to be approached with great sensitivity, on account of the spiritual and human values enshrined in them. They command our respect because over the centuries they have borne witness to the efforts to find answers “to those profound mysteries of the human condition” (NA 1) and have given expression to the religious experience and they continue to do so today…Making its own the vision and the terminology of some early Church Fathers, Nostra Aetate speaks of the presence in these traditions of “a ray of that Truth which enlightens all” (NA 2). Ad Gentes recognizes the presence of “seeds of the word”, and points to “the riches which a generous God has distributed among the nations” (AG 11). Again, Lumen Gentium refers to the good which is “found sown” not only “in minds and hearts”, but also “in the rites and customs of peoples” (LG 17)…the Council has openly acknowledged the presence of positive values not only in the religious life of individual believers of other religious traditions, but also in the religious traditions to which they belong…Given this aim, a deeper conversion of all towards God, interreligious dialogue possesses its own validity. In this process of conversion “the decision may be made to leave one’s previous spiritual or religious situation in order to direct oneself towards another”(16). Sincere dialogue implies, on the one hand, mutual acceptance of differences, or even of contradictions, and on the other, respect for the free decision of persons taken according to the dictates of their conscience (cf. DH 2)…”

- Dialogue and Proclamation, PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE, 1991

 

[Servant19]

But is this not what the Baha’i Faith and Church teach officially my friend?

Thank you for this brother Voithon

I think we can all agree that where mankind has suffered most throughout religious history is that the generality of religious adherents fall MARKEDLY short in their practice of their Faith. The teachings are often high up there, and the practice of those teachings is low down here. Of course, I generalise, there are certainly some saintly souls out there, but I think you get my point?

The one arena of service that I feel the Bahai Faith is currently learning in its application of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is how we can finally usher forth an era where the gap between “teachings vs real world deeds” is significantly reduced.

The incredibly complex yet remarkably promising network, and structure and administrative order of the Bahai Faith is now starting to crystallize, and show some semblance of great promise. There is no doubt that the Bahai Administrative Order is still maturing and advancing itself, but as it does so, the ability to provide personalized “accompaniment” of souls towards a richer and more strengthened resolve to apply the spiritual teachings of Baha’u’llah is starting to take shape.

The grassroots framework for this personalised accompaniment of souls towards becoming selfless servants of mankind, is imbued with a glorious and exciting vision unfolding before our eyes.

What is “teaching” and what “actually happen” is finally becoming one and the same thing, and this is the meaning behind Baha’u’llahs vision of “an ever-advancing civilization”

I am sure you will agree this is a noble endeavour that requires larger and larger numbers of souls to be part of for it manifest it’s fullest glory for mankind to witness. We are now, over the last 5-10 years seeing the fruits of our labours, yet there is ALWAYS work to be done

God bless

 

[Red_Sox_1]

But is this not what the Baha’i Faith and Church teach officially my friend?

Hi,

I would say that the answer is both yes and no. Here are at least 5 different perspectives that I believe are all consistent with Baha’i view:

1. No: The Baha’i Faith teaches that all religions are connected, much like the Old Testament is connected to the New Testament. As Christians do not assert that the Old Testament God is false, Baha’is do not assert that the God of the competing religions is false.
2. Yes: Baha’is believe the Baha’i revelation is specifically given in response to the current affairs of the people of the world so is specifically addressed our current needs, unlike past Revelations which only indirectly address the needs of our age.
3. Yes: Baha’u’llah in a high theophanic view, is the one who authored all religions, so His word supercedes (and fulfills) all past Revelations.
4. No: Since God (low theophany) authored all religions, all religions are correct in a relativistic fashion.
5. No: Since Baha’u’llah is a Manifestation just like all other Manifestations, each is right from a certain perspective.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

What leads Baha’is to believe that Bahaullah was a prophet? Did he work miracles? How can you know he wasn’t “making it up”?

In my view, the nature of Baha’u’llah’s proclamations are decisive and complete (“Lo, the Father is Come!”, “The Call of God hath been raised, and the light of His countenance** hath been lifted up upon men.”). He makes these proclamation in a spontaneous fashion as he went through trial after tribulation in His attempts to assist and support the Babis who were harassed and attacked by the Muslim and government authorities. He comes across in his writings as essentially and completely honest and genuine. Nothing appears to be “forced” or “twisted”. His revelation comes across to me as very natural, very easy, and I feel it is in sync with my independent observation of the natural world, like how leaves wave in the wind and fall to the ground in the autumn in a random and soft trajectory. It seems as natural as the rabbits that dart across the backyard, as the deer grazing in the distance, as ants assembling and dispersing across the field. As the rain falls from the clouds so too does the Revelation proceed from His Pen – nay, more, His Tongue commands His Pen to write! I don’t know a more genuine way of explaining it.

** “the light of His countenance” is a reference to the Light that Moses saw although He was unable to see His countenance on Mount Sinai, today, Baha’u’llah asserts, mankind can see the light of His countenance.

“This is the Day which past ages and centuries can never rival. Know this, and be not of the ignorant.” “This is the Day whereon human ears have been privileged to hear what He Who conversed with God Moses] heard upon Sinai, what He Who is the Friend of God Muḥammad] heard when lifted up towards Him, what He Who is the Spirit of God Jesus] heard as He ascended unto Him, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” “This Day is God’s Day, and this Cause His Cause. Happy is he who hath renounced this world, and clung to Him Who is the Dayspring of God’s Revelation.” “This is the King of Days, the Day that hath seen the coming of the Best Beloved, He Who through all eternity hath been acclaimed the Desire of the World.” “This is the Chief of all days and the King thereof. Great is the blessedness of him who hath attained, through the sweet savor of these days, unto everlasting life, and who, with the most great steadfastness, hath arisen to aid the Cause of Him Who is the King of Names. Such a man is as the eye to the body of mankind.” “Peerless is this Day, for it is as the eye to past ages and centuries, and as a light unto the darkness of the times.” “This Day is different from other days, and this Cause different from other causes. Entreat ye the one true God that He may deprive not the eyes of men from beholding His signs, nor their ears from hearkening unto the shrill voice of the Pen of Glory.” “These days are God’s days, a moment of which ages and centuries can never rival. An atom, in these days, is as the sun, a drop as the ocean. One single breath exhaled in the love of God and for His service is written down by the Pen of Glory as a princely deed. Were the virtues of this Day to be recounted, all would be thunderstruck, except those whom thy Lord hath exempted.” “By the righteousness of God! These are the days in which God hath proved the hearts of the entire company of His Messengers and Prophets, and beyond them those that stand guard over His sacred and inviolable Sanctuary, the inmates of the celestial Pavilion and dwellers of the Tabernacle of Glory.” “Should the greatness of this Day be revealed in its fulness, every man would forsake a myriad lives in his longing to partake, though it be for one moment, of its great glory—how much more this world and its corruptible treasures!” “God the true One is My Witness! This is the Day whereon it is incumbent upon everyone that seeth to behold, and every ear that hearkeneth to hear, and every heart that understandeth to perceive, and every tongue that speaketh to proclaim unto all who are in heaven and on earth, this holy, this exalted, and all-highest Name.” “Say, O men! This is a matchless Day. Matchless must, likewise, be the tongue that celebrateth the praise of the Desire of all nations, and matchless the deed that aspireth to be acceptable in His sight. The whole human race hath longed for this Day, that perchance it may fulfill that which well beseemeth its station and is worthy of its destiny.”

 

[Red_Sox_1]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

There is nothing wrong in being a devoted follower of Bahaullah or encouraging others to do the same, but it is best to give up this fantasy that he is the Promised One for all mankind.

Hi,

I missed this statement when I read it first. This is impossible.

Read my previous post – Bahaullah’s proclamation is not ambiguous. His proclamation is made directly in the contexts of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster, the Mahabads, and Hindus (see Tablet to Zoroastrian Sahib). Muhammad is acclaimed the Last Prophet and Messenger, which implies that Hindu avatars (all of whom preceded Muhammad) are like Prophets and Messengers (ie Manifestations).

 

[PrinceofEgypt]

But is this not what the Baha’i Faith and Church teach officially my friend?

You are lovely, thank you. I have not noticed all the users abiding by this idea unfortunately. We should all keep a tone of respect. I don’t object to anyone being Catholic if they simply want to better the world and make peace with God as Baha’is do. One thing that has disturbed me is a few users posting anti-Baha’i websites. This is a plea to everyone here to not blindly believe random websites on the Internet. Catholics would not want me to believe an anti-Catholic website eagerly, so why do it for Baha’is? I am trying to not have a double standard. I stay off anti-Other-People’s-Religions websites because I would never want someone to do so to my religion. I don’t try to look for hateful information for other people so do the same for me.

 

[doormouse73]

You are lovely, thank you. I have not noticed all the users abiding by this idea unfortunately. We should all keep a tone of respect. I don’t object to anyone being Catholic if they simply want to better the world and make peace with God as Baha’is do. One thing that has disturbed me is a few users posting anti-Baha’i websites. This is a plea to everyone here to not blindly believe random websites on the Internet. Catholics would not want me to believe an anti-Catholic website eagerly, so why do it for Baha’is? I am trying to not have a double standard. I stay off anti-Other-People’s-Religions websites because I would never want someone to do so to my religion. I don’t try to look for hateful information for other people so do the same for me.

i dont understand!!

you say that people on here are putting up anti bahai web sites and before during and after this event(btw ive not seen any web sites as such on here)the bahais on here have come on this forum,which is a Catholic forum and have had to read/listen to all of the heresey that the bahais come out with.who in the kindest way of asking are you to put this post up about anti this and that…

im not saying this in a tone of voice with anger or disrespect. but i had to keep it as plain as possible.

all the very best.

 

[Vouthon]

One thing that has disturbed me is a few users posting anti-Baha’i websites. This is a plea to everyone here to not blindly believe random websites on the Internet. Catholics would not want me to believe an anti-Catholic website eagerly, so why do it for Baha’is? I am trying to not have a double standard. I stay off anti-Other-People’s-Religions websites because I would never want someone to do so to my religion. I don’t try to look for hateful information for other people so do the same for me.

That is very, very commendable Prince. I agree that no religion should be presented in a biased, prejudiced fashion without an open mind and a sensitivity to its capacity to instil wisdom and devotion in many people. Disagreements and criticisms should be respectfully articulated.

I too would never refer to websites that are uniquely hostile to any given religion. As you can see, the Vatican would not approve of that either.

Your words are most constructive and helpful in the context of this thread. I do sincerely hope that they are heeded.

 

[Veedar]

You are lovely, thank you. I have not noticed all the users abiding by this idea unfortunately. We should all keep a tone of respect. I don’t object to anyone being Catholic if they simply want to better the world and make peace with God as Baha’is do. One thing that has disturbed me is a few users posting anti-Baha’i websites. This is a plea to everyone here to not blindly believe random websites on the Internet. Catholics would not want me to believe an anti-Catholic website eagerly, so why do it for Baha’is? I am trying to not have a double standard. I stay off anti-Other-People’s-Religions websites because I would never want someone to do so to my religion. I don’t try to look for hateful information for other people so do the same for me.

Hi, PrinceofEgypt. I don’t think Catholics should be afraid of anti-Catholic websites. It is much better to research what the sites say and examine the issues from both sides. The truth can handle criticism. It is, after all, truth. Only a false religion needs to fear criticism and ask members not to read materials that are critical of the faith.

 

[PrinceofEgypt]

i dont understand!!

you say that people on here are putting up anti bahai web sites and before during and after this event(btw ive not seen any web sites as such on here)the bahais on here have come on this forum,which is a Catholic forum and have had to read/listen to all of the heresey that the bahais come out with.who in the kindest way of asking are you to put this post up about anti this and that…

im not saying this in a tone of voice with anger or disrespect. but i had to keep it as plain as possible.

all the very best.

Maybe you didn’t notice, but there was a user who posted some covenant-breaker/hate websites against Baha’is and another use who straight up posted a website along the same intellectual lines as Stormfront. I am not asking for much. All I want is for people to tone it down and stay respectful as required by the forum. “Please don’t blindly accept everything you here on the Internet or believe hateful accusations” is not too much to ask. You would not like it if I were to believe some anti-Catholic website contemptuously.

 

[Vouthon]

Hi, PrinceofEgypt. I don’t think Catholics should be afraid of anti-Catholic websites. It is much better to research what the sites say and examine the issues from both sides. The truth can handle criticism. It is, after all, truth. Only a false religion needs to fear criticism and ask members not to read materials that are critical of the faith.

While what you say is true, I think his point was more about people relying on biased, anti-Baha’i websites for their understandings and appraisal of the religion.

As one learns from academia, sources must be objective, fair and impartial. Basing one’s assessment of Catholicism, say, on CARM (a Fundamentalist Evangelical website) would not be a legitimate basis upon which to judge the teaching of Holy Mother Church.

Yes, one should be able to accept criticism of one’s religious beliefs and look at all perspectives, even the most vehement, nonetheless one should not in my opinion rely on subjective, hostile literature towards another religion or belief system which has no element of fairness in the presentation.

To understand a religion, one should go straight to the sources and objective literature that is without an obvious bias in the presentation, so as to arrive at a “true” picture.

 

[SteveVH]

Maybe you didn’t notice, but there was a user who posted some covenant-breaker/hate websites against Baha’is and another use who straight up posted a website along the same intellectual lines as Stormfront. I am not asking for much. All I want is for people to tone it down and stay respectful as required by the forum. “Please don’t blindly accept everything you here on the Internet or believe hateful accusations” is not too much to ask. You would not like it if I were to believe some anti-Catholic website contemptuously.

What do anti-Baha’i websites have to do with CAF? Am I missing something?

 

[PrinceofEgypt]

Hi, PrinceofEgypt. I don’t think Catholics should be afraid of anti-Catholic websites. It is much better to research what the sites say and examine the issues from both sides. The truth can handle criticism. It is, after all, truth. Only a false religion needs to fear criticism and ask members not to read materials that are critical of the faith.

This is not what I am saying at all. The Baha’i Faith is a religion many people are ignorant of and susceptible to misinformation. I’m encouraging the spirit of truth. If you are ignorant of the Baha’i Faith then do your best to learn and not believe random accusations and insults. Do not just accept what you hear blindly. It’s not the simplest Religion to grasp and anti-Baha’i websites only lead to more grievous misundetstandings. Be critical of what you read online and don’t hate people you’ve never met based on what you have read on the Internet.

 

[Veedar]

While what you say is true, I think his point was more about people relying on biased, anti-Baha’i websites for their understandings and appraisal of the religion.

As one learns from academia, sources must be objective, fair and impartial. Basing one’s assessment of Catholicism, say, on CARM (a Fundamentalist Evangelical website) would not be a legitimate basis upon which to judge the teaching of Holy Mother Church.

Yes, one should be able to accept criticism of one’s religious beliefs and look at all perspectives, even the most vehement, nonetheless one should not in my opinion rely on subjective, hostile literature towards another religion or belief system which has no element of fairness in the presentation.

To understand a religion, one should go straight to the sources and objective literature that is without an obvious bias in the presentation, so as to arrive at a “true” picture.

I didn’t mean to suggest that one should rely on these sites exclusively. But if I am going to buy a car, or a new TV, I am going to check out reviews. I will read what other users have experienced, including highly negative experiences. It would be foolish to only read what the representatives of the manufacturer says, or the pitch of the salespersons. That rarely gives an accurate picture.

 

[Veedar]

This is not what I am saying at all. The Baha’i Faith is a religion many people are ignorant of and susceptible to misinformation. I’m encouraging the spirit of truth. If you are ignorant of the Baha’i Faith then do your best to learn and not believe random accusations and insults. Do not just accept what you hear blindly. It’s not the simplest Religion to grasp and anti-Baha’i websites only lead to more grievous misundetstandings. Be critical of what you read online and don’t hate people you’ve never met based on what you have read on the Internet.

Yes, some are probably ignorant. Some probably have had negative experiences. Some may also have left for genuine reasons. The choice of religion is so much more important than the choice of a new car or a new computer. Being at least as critical when researching a religious system as one is when one is researching the latest mobile phone from Samsung, seems to me to be very reasonable.

 

[Vouthon]

I didn’t mean to suggest that one should rely on these sites exclusively. But if I am going to buy a car, or a new TV, I am going to check out reviews. I will read what other users have experienced, including highly negative experiences. It would be foolish to only read what the representatives of the manufacturer says, or the pitch of the salespersons. That rarely gives an accurate picture.

I’m in complete agreement The “pitch” of the salesperson would fall under what I’m meaning too. That would be a “review” unduly favourable to the religion which is the other side of the coin. The best thing is to look at objective literature that tries to keep away from “taking a side” so to speak.

Obviously one should consider anti and pro literature/websites. I’m only suggesting that one should not base one’s understanding of a religion on either of these, since an element of propaganda and half-truth is present in both.

What you say though is very true. Catholics certainly don’t fear criticism or anti-Catholic websites. We simply consider what is said in them and rebut the arguments with what we know to be the case after some deep reflection.

 

[daler]

"…A just appraisal of other religious traditions normally presupposes close contact with them. This implies, besides theoretical knowledge, practical experience of interreligious dialogue with the followers of these traditions…These traditions are to be approached with great sensitivity, on account of the spiritual and human values enshrined in them…

…Given this aim, a deeper conversion of all towards God, interreligious dialogue possesses its own validity. In this process of conversion “the decision may be made to leave one’s previous spiritual or religious situation in order to direct oneself towards another”(16). Sincere dialogue implies, on the one hand, mutual acceptance of differences, or even of contradictions, and on the other, respect for the free decision of persons taken according to the dictates of their conscience (cf. DH 2)…"

• Dialogue and Proclamation, PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE, 1991

Vouthon,
. Thank you for the inclusion of the above quote in your dialogue. It shows a genuine appreciation of the peoples of the world and their traditional means of contact with God and their cultural rites and expressions as being valid. This is very much the Baha’i approach to the peoples of the world, recognizing that all of us are interconnected, not only genetically, but spiritually, for the guiding Hand of God has always been in our midst.

. "O contending peoples and kindreds of the earth! Set your faces towards unity, and let the radiance of its light shine upon you. Gather ye together, and for the sake of God resolve to root out whatever is the source of contention amongst you. Then will the effulgence of the world’s great Luminary envelop the whole earth, and its inhabitants become the citizens of one city, and the occupants of one and the same throne.

. This wronged One hath, ever since the early days of His life, cherished none other desire but this, and will continue to entertain no wish except this wish. There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose.

. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you. This, verily, is the most exalted Word which the Mother Book hath sent down and revealed unto you. To this beareth witness the Tongue of Grandeur from His habitation of glory."

. Baha’u’llah

.

 

[doormouse73]

let me get this straight…

you are saying people have had a bad turn in being a bahai for what ever reason,and you dont want people on here to post them for others to see? is it because they expose some thing that is terribly wrong within the bahai religion? i dont know you tell me…

then these same people come on to a Catholic forum and contradict the Gospels,the crucifixion,the resurrection i could go on and on,every thing really…and star to moan and shout out people are dissecting you?

ive heard it all now… please.this is what happens,other threads are getting hijacked and spun and woven into the same thread…

ah well,ill leave it up the the mods to sort this one out…

 

[Veedar]

Vouthon, (…)There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose.

Since it is claimed that Zoroastrianism is one of these God-revealed religions, are we to believe that the drinking of Nirang, which is made by purifying the urine from bulls, is also divine? Was that divinely ordained for the age in which it was revelaed?

 

[PrinceofEgypt]

Yes, some are probably ignorant. Some probably have had negative experiences. Some may also have left for genuine reasons. The choice of religion is so much more important than the choice of a new car or a new computer. Being at least as critical when researching a religious system as one is when one is researching the latest mobile phone from Samsung, seems to me to be very reasonable.

What about just plain online misinformation which occurs on anti-religion websites? I consider myself moderately informed on religions and some “information” should simply be off-limits because it is not information at all. I’m thinking about an anti-Islam website that seemed to be making up Ahadeeth and accusing Mohammed of things that never actually happened. Stick to legitimate sources. Find a resonable critique of Islam or read something non-Islamic that disagree with Islam but doesn’t directly attack it. Another thing is tre availability and accessibility of information. How easy will it be to find a refutation of misinformation? Sometimes it’s difficult and you won’t know it is wrong. Hate websites directed at anyone shut down conversation and encourage hatred. We all have biases and we may subconsciously lean to one side. Keep in mind I do stay off anti-catholic websites because I don’t want to hate the Catholics and I hope nobody is seeking to hate me.