Baha'i V

[SteveVH]

The way I would put it, personally, is that there are both compelling similarities and differences. Particularly within the Abrahamic tradition, there is a great amount of synergy (along with crucial incompatibilities). As you correctly say, we should embrace the truths as our own (since “all truth is Christian truth”) and *respectfully * put point and recognize our differences. The “degree” to which it is the same or different is not really all that important. Truth is truth and its presence, no matter to what degree, is always due to the action of the Holy Spirit and has a relation to Christ.

Shoghi Effendi’s statement is not really any different from how a Catholic would view the Baha’i Faith. He says that there are doctrinal elements of common agreement (in his view “many”), he shows deep respect for Catholic moral and spiritual values, as well as praising the usefulness of a Catholic background in general. Note that he also calls the Church of Rome the “inheritor” of Christ’s teachings and that Baha’is are to respect Catholicism because of this (despite our differences). His statement about “perversion” (and remember this document is intended for Baha’i readership) is to highlight that there are elements of Catholic belief that are not compatible.

We would surely say the same about the Baha’i Faith. In dialogue we can embrace our shared truths and look on with awe at the activity of the Holy Spirit outside the church, planting seeds of the Logos, as well as respectfully noting our differences.

From Vatican II:

Fair enough.

 

[daler]

That is an interesting theological issue to raise and I wonder if one of the Baha’is could elucidate on it for us.

Baha’u’llah teaches that the universe is without beginning in time. It is a perpetual emanation from the Great First Cause

…" (Baha’u’llah and the New Era p. 204).

Creation is not therefore a single, time-bound historical event…
This continuous divine activity is His eternal creativity or role as “Creator”.

Catholicism believes in creation ex nihilo (from nothing).

I’m interested to hear the Baha’i view concerning this.

What comes to mind is something from the Seven Valleys, i.e., from the Valley of Unity:

. "Volumes will not suffice to hold the mystery of the Beloved One, nor can it be exhausted in these pages, although it be no more than a word, no more than a sign. “Knowledge is a single point, but the ignorant have multiplied it.”

. "On this same basis, ponder likewise the differences among the worlds. Although the divine worlds be never ending, yet some refer to them as four: The world of time (zamán), which is the one that hath both a beginning and an end; the world of duration (dahr), which hath a beginning, but whose end is not revealed; the world of perpetuity (sarmad), whose beginning is not to be seen but which is known to have an end; and the world of eternity (azal), neither a beginning nor an end of which is visible. Although there are many differing statements as to these points, to recount them in detail would result in weariness. Thus, some have said that the world of perpetuity hath neither beginning nor end, and have named the world of eternity as the invisible, impregnable Empyrean. Others have called these the worlds of the Heavenly Court (Lahút), of the Empyrean Heaven (Jabarút), of the Kingdom of the Angels (Malakút), and of the mortal world (Násút).

 

[daler]

The very fact, however, that the Baha’i view of Catholicism as perverting the truth with the doctrines of men and being out of date would seem to negate any commonality of belief other than the most basic (i.e. there is a God). As you say, all religions have some degree of truth and we embrace that truth as our own. But to conclude that the Baha’i faith is close to Catholicism because we share some truths is going to far, IMO. The differences far out way the similarities.

Steve,
. I think that there should be some clarification on this issue so that it is not stretched from its specific application wherein the problem arises. As this will be my own opinion, please regard it as such, as I cannot speak for the Faith.

. In the same sense that the Jewish leaders were subject to their own thoughts and interpretations, so too, human fallibility may enter into the positions of leadership of other religious institutions, their practices, and interpretations. Faulty doctrines and dogma reflect this human fallibility and demonstrate the need for a renewal of God’s Religion from age to age, to reset the course, and direct men’s souls to the right path.

. That the very “leaders” of religion are blinded by their own desire for leadership and worldly desires negates their authority over others. They who question the Sun of Divine Guidance when once He has appeared, as did the Pharisees Christ, exhibit their distance from Him.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. I think that there should be some clarification on this issue so that it is not stretched from its specific application wherein the problem arises. As this will be my own opinion, please regard it as such, as I cannot speak for the Faith.

. In the same sense that the Jewish leaders were subject to their own thoughts and interpretations, so too, human fallibility may enter into the positions of leadership of other religious institutions, their practices, and interpretations. Faulty doctrines and dogma reflect this human fallibility and demonstrate the need for a renewal of God’s Religion from age to age, to reset the course, and direct men’s souls to the right path.

As a Catholic. I would argue that the difference lies in the fact that the Church is a divine institution, founded by Jesus Christ himself, with which he promised to remain until the end of time and to which he promised to send the Holy Spirit, which he did at Pentecost, to lead the Church into all truth. He gave this Church his own authority; unbelievable, awesome authority, and protects it from error so that fallible men might utter infallible teaching which flows from the one deposit of faith given to the Apostles. So we do not have the doctrines of men, but of God and it is he who protects his Church, infallibly.

However, following your logic, which certainly always applies to man-made institutions (the Catholic Church has outlived all man-made institutions) one would have to say that the Baha’i faith is susceptible to the same malady, yes?

That the very “leaders” of religion are blinded by their own desire for leadership and worldly desires negates their authority over others.

It is true that this happens to men. The temptations of the world can be very powerful and affect all of us. But it does not happen to all “leaders” of religion by any stretch of the imagination. We have had some popes who were real characters; downright terrible, shameful men. But that is only few and not one of them ever changed a dogma or doctrine of the Church. The great majority have been holy men who lived an exemplary Christian life; witness our current pope as well as those of recent memory. These men are not blinded by the world, in fact they radically stand against the ways of the world and are excoriated for it.

They who question the Sun of Divine Guidance when once He has appeared, as did the Pharisees Christ, exhibit their distance from Him.

I don’t know the Sun, but I do know the Son. If you are speaking of anyone but the Son, Jesus Christ, then I am happy to keep my distance. And when he appears again, no one will question him, I promise. Instead every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

[daler]

Not quite. He truly was there but in a manner beyond anything they could possibly conceive. It was not a “mirage” or a disembodied “ghost” nor a “vision”. He appeared to them in a glorified body not bound by form, space, time or any other earthly constraints. But he really was present to them hence why Thomas could touch his wounds. He had a real body but a glorified one.

Vouthon,
. When I try to comprehend what was meant to be conveyed in the verse “He entered the room, not using the door”, I must always put it next to the verse “Wherever two or three gather and make mention of Me, there I am also”

. When we refer to the “Spirit” of Christ, whether entering a room or being amongst us, that “Spirit” is the Holy Spirit, unseen, but felt, in all its fullness.

. To try and construct a physical “body” out of the entrance and exit, or appearance and disappearance of that “Spirit” seems to me to be missing the point of understanding and acknowledging that Spirit, which in reality, descended from the Heaven of the Will of God in unseen form and was present in the Person of Jesus to those who would receive it, and understood by those who “had eyes to see” and “ears to hear”

. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”

 

[daler]

As a Catholic. I would argue that the difference lies in the fact that the Church is a divine institution, founded by Jesus Christ himself, with which he promised to remain until the end of time and to which he promised to send the Holy Spirit, which he did at Pentecost, to lead the Church into all truth. He gave this Church his own authority; unbelievable, awesome authority, and protects it from error so that fallible men might utter infallible teaching which flows from the one deposit of faith given to the Apostles. So we do not have the doctrines of men, but of God and it is he who protects his Church, infallibly.

However, following your logic, which certainly always applies to man-made institutions (the Catholic Church has outlived all man-made institutions) one would have to say that the Baha’i faith is susceptible to the same malady, yes?

It is true that this happens to men. The temptations of the world can be very powerful and affect all of us. But it does not happen to all “leaders” of religion by any stretch of the imagination. We have had some popes who were real characters; downright terrible, shameful men. But that is only few and not one of them ever changed a dogma or doctrine of the Church. The great majority have been holy men who lived an exemplary Christian life; witness our current pope as well as those of recent memory. These men are not blinded by the world, in fact they radically stand against the ways of the world and are excoriated for it.

I don’t know the Sun, but I do know the Son. If you are speaking of anyone but the Son, Jesus Christ, then I am happy to keep my distance. And when he appears again, no one will question him, I promise. Instead every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

Steve,
. Very good post. It is indeed a challenge to anyone that an Institution established by God, as the Priesthood of Moses and Aaron, should so stray from recognizing the Truth standing in front of them that they should not only deny Him, but crucify Him Who is their true Lord and Savior.

. These Pharisees were the authors of the doctrines of men, obviously, in hindsight. Do you agree? And certain of the Popes, as you mention, were not immune from infallibility, yet the Church continued despite their error.

. It will no doubt be a test for some Baha’is in a thousand, or thousands of, years hence when, according to our theology, the next Manifestation of God appears, at which point, as with the appearance of every Prophet of God in the historical record, some fail to recognize the One Whom God sends to educate and uplift the hearts of men.

. Should the members of the Universal House of Justice, for example, who are but elected administrators of the Baha’i Faith, fail at that time, one or all, to turn unto the Promised One of that Day, they, too, shall be held accountable before God, as have all in the past up until the present time.

. Those who are at the helm of the Institutions established by God possess a great responsibility to obey Him, and this cannot be done save through acknowledgement of His Messengers. As there is no other access to God but through His Divine Manifestations, they and those who follow them, will wander in the desert of remoteness from all eternity unto all eternity, should they fail in their task.

 

[daler]

Then the Baha’is and Catholics are in agreement here.

. There are indeed a great many Baha’is and Catholics who are in agreement on many themes. I have known scores of Catholics who have been in such strong agreement with the Baha’i teachings that they themselves found no disagreement in the essentials of their Faith, becoming Baha’is themselves, as they found fulfillment in all that was promised.

. That being said, those who hold to traditional understandings on such things as physical resurrection face a wall which they find difficult to overcome.

. “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.” . Revelation 3:12

 

[Servant19]

Then you are agreeing that there is such a thing as objective truth; truth that never changes; truth that exists whether or not anyone believes it. Am I correct?

So if it is objectively wrong to commit adultery, then it is always wrong to commit adultery. Yet Baha’u’llah did commit adultery the moment he consummated his marriage to his second wife.

Hi Steve, I’ve missed a fair bit of this thread, and trying to catch up.

May I ask, did Jesus not change the conditions of adultery from the Mosaic Dispensation?
For the first time, He declared adultery as committed when a partner even “thinks” about another person in an inappropriate way.

Was this a declared Law within Judaism?

 

[tonyfish58]

I found this talk very refreshing

Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’ within the Church

“The faith passes, so to speak, through a distiller and becomes ideology,” he said, according to Radio Vatican. “And ideology does not beckon [people]. In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid.

“And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements.”

“The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people,” Francis added. “But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”

He said Christian ideology was the result of a lack of true prayer.

It is all something we can learn from

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Then they don’t understand “eternity” in the same manner as the Christian view.

No, from my understanding eternity is considered outside of time in the Baha’i Writings too.

I actually have found the Tablet of the Universe by Abdu’l-Baha quite eye-opening and get something new from it every time I read it. Here is an unofficial translation (by that I mean there may be some minor errors in translation)

bahai-library.com/abdulbaha_lawh_aflakiyyih

 

[Servant19]

There is a difference between God as He is in Himself (in his Divine Essence) and God as He is in relation to His creatures, in his actions (or to use the Orthodox terminology “energies”): .

The following prayer by the Bab come to mind

---

Say: God sufficeth all things above all things, and nothing in the heavens or in the earth but God sufficeth. Verily, He is in Himself the Knower, the Sustainer, the Omnipotent.***

 

[Vouthon]

What comes to mind is something from the Seven Valleys, i.e., from the Valley of Unity:

Most interesting Daler. I have highlighted the two parts that are most relevant

What would be your interpretation, then? How does the idea, expressed above, that the world of “time” had a beginning fit with Abdu’l-Baha’s and Esselmont’s assertion that the Baha’i Faith believes in a universe without a beginning?

In a previous message I asked if it might be possible that the Baha’i writings were referring to the eternal, unceasing creative action of God as opposed to putting forward an actual belief in the eternity of matter.

There would at the very least seem to be an agreement that eternity is timelessness; outside time and place - that is, beyond it.

 

[daler]

No, from my understanding eternity is considered outside of time in the Baha’i Writings too.

I actually have found the Tablet of the Universe by Abdu’l-Baha quite eye-opening and get something new from it every time I read it. Here is an unofficial translation (by that I mean there may be some minor errors in translation)

bahai-library.com/abdulbaha_lawh_aflakiyyih

Indeed, the Tablet of the Universe is a worthy and profound read issuing forth from the Pen of the Center of God’s Covenant, Whose knowledge was gained at the feet of His Father, Baha’u’llah. Such wisdom and knowledge cannot be acquired other than from Him through Whom the world was made.

url]http://bahai-library.com/abdulbaha_lawh_aflakiyyih

 

[Vouthon]

No, from my understanding eternity is considered outside of time in the Baha’i Writings too.

I actually have found the Tablet of the Universe by Abdu’l-Baha quite eye-opening and get something new from it every time I read it. Here is an unofficial translation (by that I mean there may be some minor errors in translation)

bahai-library.com/abdulbaha_lawh_aflakiyyih

Again, most interesting Servant

What stills confuses me is the assertion that:

The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness. The names and attributes of God require the existence of beings, and the Eternal Bounty does not cease. If it were to, it would be contrary to the perfections of God.

***~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 281 ***

At one point in “Some Answered Questions”, Abdu’l-Baha even states that:

Know that it is one of the most abstruse spiritual truths that the world of existence—that is to say, this endless universe—has no beginning…Know that an educator without pupils cannot be imagined; a monarch without subjects could not exist; a master without scholars cannot be appointed; a creator without a creature is impossible; a provider without those provided for cannot be conceived; for all the divine names and attributes demand the existence of beings. If we could imagine a time when no beings existed, this imagination would be the denial of the Divinity of God. Moreover, absolute nonexistence cannot become existence. If the beings were absolutely nonexistent, existence would not have come into being. Therefore, as the Essence of Unity (that is, the existence of God) is everlasting and eternal—that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end—it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end. Yes, it may be that one of the parts of the universe, one of the globes, for example, may come into existence, or may be disintegrated, but the other **endless globes **are still existing; the universe would not be disordered nor destroyed. 181 On the contrary, existence is eternal and perpetual.

Here is the link to the full passage: reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-47.html

If Baha’is have the same understanding of “eternity” as Catholics, then how can Abdu’l-Baha refer to both the Essence of God and created “existence” as eternal?

The creation is not eternal in Catholic understanding. It is within the dimension of time, which Daler’s quotation from the “Seven Valleys” appeared to indicate was a “creation” and had a beginning.

As I stated earlier, Catholics can believe that since God is the Creator God, so too the process of creation cannot be described as “beginning” at a certain point or “ending” at another. It is an eternal, unceasing act.

Nevertheless, these verses if I understand them aright seem to be suggesting not this but rather the eternality and endlessness of matter.

Abdu’l-Baha even says that God is “eternal and endless”. This is somewhat oxymoronic in my eyes, since “endlessness” seems to indicate infinite time which is very different from “eternity”.

Thoughts my friend?

 

[daler]

Most interesting Daler. I have highlighted the two parts that are most relevant

What would be your interpretation, then? How does the idea, expressed above, that the world of “time” had a beginning fit with Abdu’l-Baha’s and Esselmont’s assertion that the Baha’i Faith believes in a universe without a beginning?

In a previous message I asked if it might be possible that the Baha’i writings were referring to the eternal, unceasing creative action of God as opposed to putting forward an actual belief in the eternity of matter.

There would at the very least seem to be an agreement that eternity is timelessness; outside time and place - that is, beyond it.

Dear Vouthan,
. Were we to stand upon the sun, or imagine that we could do so, there would be no days, no dawns, no setting of the sun upon the horizons of the earth. For earth, relative to the sun is filled with time in the relationship between two objects: one dependent, and the other independent of time.

. So, too, the sun in its movement through the cosmos would have its time in relationship to the galaxie around which it orbits, while the center of the Galaxie would be without time, with all things spinning around it.

. Now God is the supreme Center of Reality, outside of time, beyond even meager descriptions of eternity, while all created things are bound by time which He is not, as He is the Center of Reality and beyond all limitations, and His Name, the Creator, presupposeth a Creation,“from the beginning that hath no beginning to the end that hath no end”

. Time itself is the relationship of objects, one to another, and are confined to the physical realm of dust and the elements. Beyond the physical realm, that is, in the spiritual worlds of the Abha Kingdom, our reality will not involve matter and its relative movements which appear to have beginning and end, but are in reality temporary and exist only in this world, while the other world is absent of all that pertains to planets and clay, suns and stars.

. When we set aside this mortal frame, designed to relate only to this physical realm, we shall abandon our frame and all the elements of the earth, sun and stars and continue to exist in a dimension of which we have no way of yet describing or conversing about, for no words can allude to that realm beyond that which we know here, in my humble opinion.

. Salutations and blessings be upon your mind which explores such things…

. May your soul be educated through the Movements of the Most Great Pen which prepare the souls for entrance into the Paradise of His Good Pleasure and nearness to Him in the sanctified realm of the Kingdom of Abha

.

 

[Vouthon]

Dear Vouthan,
. Were we to stand upon the sun, or imagine that we could do so, there would be no days, no dawns, no setting of the sun upon the horizons of the earth. For earth, relative to the sun is filled with time in the relationship between two objects: one dependent, and the other independent of time.

. So, too, the sun in its movement through the cosmos would have its time in relationship to the galaxie around which it orbits, while the center of the Galaxie would be without time, with all things spinning around it.

. Not God is the supreme Center of Reality, outside of time, beyond even meager descriptions of eternity, while all created things are bound by time which He is not, as He is the Center of Reality and beyond all limitations.

. Time itself is the relationship of objects, one to another, and are confined to the physical realm of dust and the elements. Beyond the physical realm, that is, in the spiritual worlds of the Abha Kingdom, our reality will not involve matter and its relative movements which appear to have beginning and end, but are in reality temporary and exist only in this world, while the other world is absent of all that pertains to planets and clay, suns and stars.

. When we set aside this mortal frame, designed to relate only to this physical realm, we shall abandon our frame and all the elements of the earth, sun and stars and continue to exist in a dimension of which we have no way of yet describing or conversing about, for no words can allude to that realm beyond that which we know here, in my humble opinion.

. Salutations and blessings be upon your mind which explores such things…
. May your soul be educated through the Movements of the Most Great Pen which prepare the souls for entrance into the Paradise of His Good Pleasure and nearness to Him in the sanctified realm of the Kingdom of Abha

Thank you for that Daler. I will ponder what you have said

 

[Servant19]

Again, most interesting Servant

What stills confuses me is the assertion that:

At one point in “Some Answered Questions”, Abdu’l-Baha even states that:

Here is the link to the full passage: reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-47.html

If Baha’is have the same understanding of “eternity” as Catholics, then how can Abdu’l-Baha refer to both the Essence of God and created “existence” as eternal?

The creation is not eternal in Catholic understanding. It is within the dimension of time, which Daler’s quotation from the “Seven Valleys” appeared to indicate was a “creation” and had a beginning.

As I stated earlier, Catholics can believe that since God is the Creator God, so too the process of creation cannot be described as “beginning” at a certain point or “ending” at another. It is an eternal, unceasing act.

Nevertheless, these verses if I understand them aright seem to be suggesting not this but rather the eternality and endlessness of matter.

Abdu’l-Baha even says that God is “eternal and endless”. This is somewhat oxymoronic in my eyes, since “endlessness” seems to indicate infinite time which is very different from “eternity”.

Thoughts my friend?

Hi Vouthon,

Don’t you just love daler. I think after that praising invocation he has showered upon your person, there is no chance that you won’t be in heaven

I must say, this is an area of the Faith that I have little knowledge on. Let us learn together. My initial understanding is that:

A painter is not a painter until there is a painting.
A Creator is not a creator until there is a creation.
If the Creator is eternal, then there also must by default be an eternal creation, for before the creation, He was not the Creator. As you have said, HE did not “become” anything, HE IS IN HIMSELF

This is not to say that this eternal creation was and always has been the physical universe. My understanding stems from the fact that Baha’u’llah on multiple occasions refers to there being “infinite Worlds of God” and the Bab often in His Writings talks about “everything in the heavens and on the earth and whatsoever lieth between them”
My conclusion is that there is a HUGE amount more to this creation thing than what I can see, feel or understand.
The world of the womb is EVERYTHING to a fetus. While in there, there is no other knowledge, no other understanding, that is IT. In relative terms, this world is an infinite world, “in comparison to the world of the womb”

Logic dictates then, and Baha’u’llah confirms, that in proportional standards the world of the soul, the Kingdom of Abha is like an “eternity” in comparison to this world of dust and stars. For a start, there is no matter. What that means is almost impossible for us to discern, even words cannot describe it.

The experience of Renee Pasarow is a very interesting observation from a Baha’i point of view:

youtube.com/watch?v=qlFTanblpvg

As daler has said, when there is no form and no matter, timelessness becomes a lot easier to grasp.

I’ve quoted this before, and if thread readers don’t mind, I will quote again. In the Tablet of the Universe Abdu’l-Baha quotes:

---

‘God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell – all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.’***

Abdu’l-Baha says that the universe has no beginning nor end. My understanding is that this is not necessarily a reference to the timeline of the universe but rather a reference to the space it occupies.

There is a school of thought in mathematics and physics which hypothesises that the universe has infinite cyclicals, known as conformal cyclic cosmology:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology

At the end of the day, we cannot really know for sure, but science is making great inroads into understanding the universe, but we must not for one second think that what science discovers is all that there is to Creation.

The Kingdom of Abha is where the real stuff happens, not here

Another great resource for deliberation is Julio Savi’s book “The Eternal Quest For God” which gives a great panorama on the extent of Baha’i Scripture on this matter

bahai-library.org/books/quest/

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

…
What would be your interpretation, then? How does the idea, expressed above, that the world of “time” had a beginning fit with Abdu’l-Baha’s and Esselmont’s assertion that the Baha’i Faith believes in a universe without a beginning?

In a previous message I asked if it might be possible that the Baha’i writings were referring to the eternal, unceasing creative action of God as opposed to putting forward an actual belief in the eternity of matter.

There would at the very least seem to be an agreement that eternity is timelessness; outside time and place - that is, beyond it.

All that is composed, is composed at a time, and decomposes at a certain time; therefore the universe (or, each universe) has a beginning and end. However creation is more than the universe, it is the eternal creative action of God. God both creates new things (which may be intellectual things, as in Isaiah 62:2 “…thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name,”) and sustains the existence of all things.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Abdu’l-Baha even says that God is “**eternal **and endless”. This is somewhat oxymoronic in my eyes, since “endlessness” seems to indicate infinite time which is very different from “eternity”.

“Eternal” here translates azali, which is “beginingless,” the natural complement of “endless.” A more elegant translation of this pair is “eternal in the past, eternal in the future.” The following phrase is an exact parallel, it says “there is no first in him, there is no last in him.” It is not contradictory to say that God exists beyond time, and that God in time has no beginning or end. God is not shut out of the universe, but God is also not an existence in the universe.

There is an error in the translation of Some Answered Questions where it says “… this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end…”. The text actually says “this endless universe, has no beginning.” But the sense is not affected by the translator’s addition.

 

[Vouthon]

All that is composed, is composed at a time, and decomposes at a certain time; therefore the universe (or, each universe) has a beginning and end. However creation is more than the universe, it is the eternal creative action of God. God both creates new things (which may be intellectual things, as in Isaiah 62:2 “…thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name,”) and sustains the existence of all things.

Dear Sen,

Thank you for the reply!

A very illuminating answer. If the emphasis is placed upon the creative action of God as being eternal and timeless in nature, then Catholics would have no problem with this idea. It has a corroboration in our tradition. What is unacceptable from our perspective is the Aristotelian belief in the endless existence of matter (or spirit or indeed any other hypothetical created reality outwith the Creator Himself), which leads to the impossible and incredulous conclusion that the Supreme Deity co-existed in eternity with matter; in other words that creation and Creator are somehow on the same “page”, equivalent. This naturally conflicts with creation ex nihilo (from nothing) as well as the transcendence, eternality and omnipotence of God.

Since God is eternal He has been eternally creating. God is creating the entire universe, and all things now, in the eternal present beyond time and space. “**My Father has never ceased working, and I too must be at work” (John 5:7). **This continuous divine activity is His eternal creativity or role as “Creator”. Could we agree on this?

But could Baha’is also attest to the reality of creation ex nihilo (from nothing)?