Baha'i V

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steve

maybe the bahai know truth in the same manner as mormons. they have burnings in their bosoms when they accept their versions of the truth.

communism also invested much importance in the vision of a one world government.

a one world government seems to be the essence of bahaism as well.
 
I certaintly believe Christ did build on the Old testament Tony. He also built on the Judaism of his time, for instance in say the resurrection. Jews had no concept of a dying and rising messiah and the account of his resurrection was just about the most novel thing any Jew could have said at the time concerning the messiah. It should be stressed however, to the first century writers of the New Testament, resurrection was physical and was never viewed in the gnostic manner. Instead of giving these cheap portrayals which are only skin deep (Christians are just like the jews who rejected jesus and etc) we need to actually discuss this and determine if it is true. What did Muhammad do or fulfil that was left unfulfilled By Jesus? Atone for my sin? Tell us to worship the one true God? What exactly has Mirza Ali Hussain done that was unfulfilled by Christ Jesus? In him the fullness of deity dwelt and in him is only salvation to be found. How does Muhammad build on Christianity, instead of contradict it? I do not need these figures you claim are so essential for me. They can do nothing for me that Christ cannot do, and I must remind you they contradict what Christ established. They did away with baptism, did away with the eucharist, did away with all of the sacraments which Christ has ordained. They even did away with the body of Christ which was his church, Christ’s body which Jesus says will never fall to the gates of hades. Bahai and muslims apparently believe the early church did fall to hades. They told us not to honour the son as we honour the father (Jesus tells us we need to honour him as we honour the father), they blatantly contradict what is in Christianity.

Now the standard bahai response to this is “Well the early Christians corrupted or mislead the faith.” And every time I bring up a direct connection between the apostles and their followers and ask how such a universal corruption could have spread so quickly in the church, the point is ignored and this conversation starts up again. That being said, what are you talking about, the early believers did the best they could? Did they have the spirit guiding them or not? That was my original point. That if the spirit was guiding them and bahai then the spirit offers contradictory teachings each and every time a generation happens. So you cannot say “God bless him” to saint Ignatius of Antioch, who taught that it was the real body and blood of Jesus Christ which was crucified for us in the Eucharist. You abhor such a belief. You cannot say “God bless him” when he explicitly calls Christ God. You cannot even say “God bless him,” to the apostle John who says Jesus Christ, the word of God, created the everything which began to exist. You cannot commend Hebrews who tells us there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus (as you believe each manifestation is a mediator). You cannot commend saint Paul when he says Jesus was the express image of God who being equal with God humbled himself. Is Jesus equal with God according to bahai? If he were, you would worship him, but you don’t.

This leads to my original point. Bahai love figures like Mother Teresa for what they did and say God was with her. But how was God with her when according to bahai she fundamentally denied who God is? She worshipped the creature rather than the creator and is counted among the worst of Idolaters, like all Christians her. The quran which you supposedly esteem is clear about the punishment of those who deny Muhammad and associate partners with Allah, that hellfire is their domain. Yet somehow Mother Teresa is with God? This is why I cannot take bahai seriously, because they don’t take God very seriously. The proof for it has been established every time you pretend we don’t disagree. Every time I say Jesus is God and you say “We believe he was divine as well!” Knowing full well the sense by which you consider him divine and that you disagree with Christians. It is dishonest.

I somehow get the feeling, these points will not be addressed, and you will insist we all agree and the early church was just as faithful as the bahai despite the total lack of the early church on your part, or any correction to the example I have given.
 
steve

maybe the bahai know truth in the same manner as mormons. they have burnings in their bosoms when they accept their versions of the truth.

communism also invested much importance in the vision of a one world government.

a one world government seems to be the essence of bahaism as well.
And so did Isaiah:

. “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it.”

. This is precisely what the Baha’is believe in. No more, and no less.

. “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”

.
 
And so did Isaiah:

. “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it.”

. This is precisely what the Baha’is believe in. No more, and no less.

. “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”

.
The Bible isn’t talking about a one world government, it is talking of the merging of heaven and earth, of creation renewed by the power of God and through the ressurection. Where the dead will be raised and judged.
 
so bahaullah is reiterating what Jesus taught about the Father’s kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven. it is not a new teaching.

too bad, bahaullah did not get on board with Jesus’ teachings on His resurrection and His Eucharistic sacrifice.

i wonder why bahai do not place their faith in Jesus who taught bahaullah about the Father’s kingdom?
 
It can when one believes the promises Christ made concerning his Church, one those promises is that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth. This is not a man-made institution. It is a divine institution.
. And one which we follow. He Who guides into all truth has appeared. He shines like the sun in its noon-tide splendor.

. What appears to be the difficulty is over this verse which many people think was totally fulfilled at Pentecost, for there were some who interpreted it that way, and others have followed this interpretation.

. What Baha’is see, however, is that the coming of the Spirit of Truth Who will guide us into all truth is in fact a reference to the Return, or the 2nd coming of Christ, at the time of the end, when the Books shall be unsealed. Prior to this, the Books remain “sealed” and their meaning hidden from the eyes of men. Hence, there is inherently a difference among those who read and accept the “unsealed” words of Baha’u’llah.

. The Baha’i position, as you well know, is that He Who has appeared in the Person of Baha’u’llah is the One foretold, and He specifically identifies Himself as the Spirit of Truth, and has unsealed that which was sealed until the time of the end.

. "“Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is now come.” Baha’u’llah
 
i really think the bahai should spend more time engaging mormons. that is because they both claim to have corrected Jesus and what He taught His apostles. they both claim their founders are the most recent communication of God to mankind. they both teach an eternal progression.

maybe if they could sort out their differences, it would then become fruitful to engage in discussion with people who believe Jesus taught His disciples definitively during their three years together; and, that the disciples meant what they taught us when they said they ate with and touched the resurrected body of Jesus Christ.

it is so absurd to think that the apostles did not experience the empty tomb and the physcial body of Christ.

they would have had to have been outright lunatics to teach the physical resurrection if they had not experienced it.
 
It can when one believes the promises Christ made concerning his Church, one those promises is that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth. This is not a man-made institution. It is a divine institution.
Steve,
. What is meant by “the Church” is, to me, a reference to “the body of Christ”. Those who make up the body of Christ are His Church.

. I was raised in the body of Christ, and as one of those souls who has heard His call, as in: “My sheep know My voice”, I testify that He has appeared, and that I hear “His voice” in the Words of Baha’u’llah.

. I understand that you disagree with my statement because you do not hear His voice in the Words of Baha’u’llah, but do you understand that because I “do” hear His voice in the Words of Baha’u’llah, I have no choice but to testify to this, even in the midst of the denials and accusations of those who do not?

. How then, can we dialogue together in a spirit of friendliness and concord when we have this difference between us where one is honestly saying “I do not hear His voice” while the other one says: “I do hear His voice”?

. This seems to be the challenge of this dialogue, for each of us is testifying to the truth as we see it, and I don’t believe that either of us desires to sadden the heart of the other.

God bless you, brother Steve
 
there are a number of tools available for evaluating claims of truth.

there is history, logic, reason, philosophy and literary analysis among them.
 
an example of applying reason to the proclamation of a reputed truth.

it does not seem reasonable to claim that the apostles were not reporting their experience of the Risen Christ accurately. it seems especially unreasonable to claim this when the claim is made by people who were not there to experience the Risen Christ.

also, it does not seem reasonable to claim that the apostles were mistaken when they pass on to us, their followers, what the Lord Jesus had taught them during the three years He spent teaching them.

perhaps someone can explain why it is reasonable to accept the above claims that i have identified as not reasonable. i gave my reasons for rejecting those claims. i based my rejection using reason.
 
. And one which we follow. He Who guides into all truth has appeared. He shines like the sun in its noon-tide splendor.

. What appears to be the difficulty is over this verse which many people think was totally fulfilled at Pentecost, for there were some who interpreted it that way, and others have followed this interpretation.

. What Baha’is see, however, is that the coming of the Spirit of Truth Who will guide us into all truth is in fact a reference to the Return, or the 2nd coming of Christ, at the time of the end, when the Books shall be unsealed. Prior to this, the Books remain “sealed” and their meaning hidden from the eyes of men. Hence, there is inherently a difference among those who read and accept the “unsealed” words of Baha’u’llah.

. The Baha’i position, as you well know, is that He Who has appeared in the Person of Baha’u’llah is the One foretold, and He specifically identifies Himself as the Spirit of Truth, and has unsealed that which was sealed until the time of the end.

. "“Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is now come.” Baha’u’llah
If I repeat my explanation how the spirit of truth is not Mirza Hussain but rather the holy spirit. Will the Bahai actually respond to it? Or will they continue to ignore such criticisms and make the same claim over and over again? Here is the refutation concerning the spirit of truth.

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you

Go down a few verses and lo and behold.

John 14:25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Bahais have to believe teh apostles were not guided into all truth, despite Christ clearly promising this them and not anyone else. Also why should this be interpreted literally? Why should we, per bahai understanding, believe Jesus literally gave this prophecy? Why can’t this just be a dream narrative which unexplainably appears in the other gospels without warning according to some bahai?
 
i really think the bahai should spend more time engaging mormons. that is because they both claim to have corrected Jesus and what He taught His apostles. they both claim their founders are the most recent communication of God to mankind. they both teach an eternal progression.

maybe if they could sort out their differences, it would then become fruitful to engage in discussion with people who believe Jesus taught His disciples definitively during their three years together; and, that the disciples meant what they taught us when they said they ate with and touched the resurrected body of Jesus Christ.

it is so absurd to think that the apostles did not experience the empty tomb and the physical body of Christ.

they would have had to have been outright lunatics to teach the physical resurrection if they had not experienced it.
God bless you, brother Eddie, and thank you for your suggestions.

. Here is the challenge faced by Baha’is. Wherever we live in the world, we meet people of different religions and their subsets, or sects. Each sect has its own interpretations and demands satisfaction on certain points of the theology to which they adhere. What satisfies the Jew does not satisfy the Christian. What satisfies the Christian does not satisfy the Muslim.

. Then further, all the schisms found in these major religions each demand their own proofs according to whatever traditions they have adopted or inherited from their forebears.
The Catholics have certain dogma, the Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, etc, etc, etc, etc each demand their answer.

. The Muslims say that after the Prophet Muhammad, there can be no other Messenger sent from God, for in the Quran He is referred to as the “Seal of the Prophets”. Yet they, too, await the coming of the Mahdi and the Return of Christ, but on their own conditions.

. The various Hindus and Buddhist sects also have their awaited prophecies to be fulfilled, some reasonable, and some absurd, to which they cling and demand an answer. The Zoroastrians await Shah Bahram, the Navajo await the Twins, the Toltecs their God, and on and on and on we go.

. Quite simply, Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is the Promised One of all Religion, and that: “When religion, shorn of its superstitions, traditions, and unintelligent dogmas, shows its conformity with science, then will there be a great unifying, cleansing force in the world which will sweep before it all wars, disagreements, discords and struggles–and then will mankind be united in the power of the Love of God.”

. Indeed, we have our conversations with Mormons, with whom we must tactfully deal with their imaginary beliefs, which are the product of the over-active mind of their founder, whom we do not regard as a prophet, but whose roots are still the Bible.

. We talk with the Hare Krsnas, who hold certain expectations of the coming of Krsna, and whose roots are the Bhagavad-Gita.

. We sit down with the Lakota in their Sweat Lodges and listen to them pray, and recount the stories of the White Buffalo Calf Woman, who you might say was the “Moses” of her people.

. We have feasts with the peoples of Pau Pau New Guinea, and Palau, and Tonga, each of whom have certain sacred traditions which are to be respected, but which, when interpreted only literally, might not make rational sense, but when interpreted spiritually, have wonderful meanings.

. The coming of the One Fold and the One Shepherd embraces the Jew and the Jain, the Christian and the Muslim, the Hindu and the Buddhist, the Sioux and the Hopi. These are the lions and the lambs which lie down together and drink from the same spring, and together say:

. "“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob . He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” Micah
 
To be quite fair, does our social doctrine not approach an ideal close to global government or at the very least a reformed UN with greater “teeth”? Such a political goal might not be appreciated or liked, especially in the USA, nevertheless the church does teach global governance - whether that entails global “government” is debatable but clearly the Baha’is are on to something right here (although Shoghi Effendi seems to envision a “Baha’i Commonwealth” with some Baha’is therefore expecting a theocracy of sorts, which I certainly would not approve of).

Limited by subsidiarity, certainly not with extensive prerogatives outwith its remit (ie not to infringe on sovereignty), nevertheless the Church has long called for the formation of a “world political authority”:
"…An essential point in any future international arrangement would be the formation of an organ for the maintenance of peace, of an organ invested by common consent with supreme power to whose office it would also pertain to smother in its germinal state any threat of isolated or collective aggression.
No one could hail this development with greater joy than he who has long upheld the principle that the idea of war as an apt and proportionate means of solving international conflicts is now out of date.
No one could wish success to this common effort, to be undertaken with a seriousness of purpose never before known, with greater enthusiasm, than he who has conscientiously striven to make the Christian and religious mentality reject modern war with its monstrous means of conducting hostilities…"
***- Venerable Pope Pius XII, Democracy and a Lasting Peace, 1944 ***
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12XMAS.HTM
“…Today the universal common good presents us with problems which are world-wide in their dimensions; problems, therefore, which cannot be solved except by a public authority with power, organization and means co-extensive with these problems, and with a world-wide sphere of activity. Consequently the moral order itself demands the establishment of some such general form of public authorityBut this general authority equipped with world-wide power and adequate means for achieving the universal common good cannot be imposed by force. It must be set up with the consent of all nationsWe are thus driven to the conclusion that the shape and structure of political life in the modern world, and the influence exercised by public authority in all the nations of the world are unequal to the task of promoting the common good of all peoples…The special function of this universal authority must be to evaluate and find a solution to economic, social, political and cultural problems which affect the universal common good. These are problems which, because of their extreme gravity, vastness and urgency, must be considered too difficult for the rulers of individual States to solve with any degree of success. But it is no part of the duty of universal authority to limit the sphere of action of the public authority of individual States, or to arrogate any of their functions to itself. On the contrary, its essential purpose is to create world conditions in which the public authorities of each nation, its citizens and intermediate groups, can carry out their tasks, fulfill their duties and claim their rights with greater security…”
***- Blessed Pope John XXIII, Pacem in Terris (1963) ***
“…It is our clear duty, then, to strain every muscle as we work for the time when all war can be completely outlawed by international consent. This goal undoubtedly requires the establishment of some universal public authority acknowledged as such by all, and endowed with effective power to safeguard, on the behalf of all, security, regard for justice, and respect for rights…”
***- Vatican II, Gaudium et Spes [The Church in the Modern World, no. 82] 1965 ***
“…Such international collaboration among the nations of the world certainly calls for institutions that will promote, coordinate and direct it, until a new juridical order is firmly established and fully ratified. We give willing and wholehearted support to those public organizations that have already joined in promoting the development of nations, and We ardently hope that they will enjoy ever growing authority. As We told the United Nations General Assembly in New York: "Your vocation is to bring not just some peoples but all peoples together as brothers. . .Who does not see the necessity of thus establishing progressively a world authority, capable of acting effectively in the juridical and political sectors? Some would regard these hopes as vain flights of fancy. It may be that these people are not realistic enough, and that they have not noticed that the world is moving rapidly in a certain direction. Men are growing more anxious to establish closer ties of brotherhood; despite their ignorance, their mistakes, their offenses, and even their lapses into barbarism and their wanderings from the path of salvation, they are slowly making their way to the Creator, even without adverting to it…”
- Venerable Pope Paul VI, Populorum Progression [The Progress of Peoples, no. 78] 1967
 
steve

maybe the bahai know truth in the same manner as mormons. they have burnings in their bosoms when they accept their versions of the truth.

communism also invested much importance in the vision of a one world government.

a one world government seems to be the essence of bahaism as well.
Catholicism and Baha’i view our purpose on earth differently. The Baha’i have a noble goal of forming a perfect society, where all religions will finally recognize the truth in Baha’u’llah and all political and religious differences will be set aside. That is the primary goal; a blueprint for the New Jerusalem to be made by the hands of men.

The primary goal of Christianity, on the other hand, is unity with God. It is why Christ became incarnate; the unity of God and man in one Person. He came to restore the unity that had been lost. The concept of having a one flesh union with God in the Eucharist is foreign to the Baha’i, not even a blip on the screen. Because they have never experienced the love and mercy of God in the sacraments, that wonderful union of God and man, it is difficult to express to them why their suggestion that we should look ahead to the next Big Thing falls on deaf ears. It is akin to telling me that I should look for a woman other than my wife (she was okay in her day) if I really want to know what love is. I have already found that love. I have no desire to look any further. Once you have found the treasure it is foolish to continue digging.
 
In my view Christianity has stressed salvation of the individual and it has implicitly suggested social values that are positive… The later social values have not been stressed as much perhaps as personal salvation but they are there nonetheless… I think Baha’is applaud any advances made toward world peace and representative world government.

Baha’is also accept the salvation of the soul as being nearness to God and more explicitly social advances in abandoning racial, class prejudice. Principles stressing universal education…advancement of women… end to racial discrimination have been at the forefront in our Faith.

"I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein."

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 243

and

"We, verily, have unfolded before your eyes that which shall profit you both in this world and in the realm of faith, and which will lead you to the path of salvation."

~ Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 208

Once the society has achieved a safe and secure environment based on the values of the oneness of humanity the spiritual life of people will also be enhanced.

From the earliest times, religion has been a
powerful force for personal and social
transformation. In both the lives of individual
believers, and in the distinctive communities it
has spawned,


~ Baha’i International Community, 1992, Magazine - The Baha’is)

🙂
 
Catholicism and Baha’i view our purpose on earth differently. The Baha’i have a noble goal of forming a perfect society, where all religions will finally recognize the truth in Baha’u’llah and all political and religious differences will be set aside. That is the primary goal; a blueprint for the New Jerusalem to be made by the hands of men.

The primary goal of Christianity, on the other hand, is unity with God. It is why Christ became incarnate; the unity of God and man in one Person. He came to restore the unity that had been lost. The concept of having a one flesh union with God in the Eucharist is foreign to the Baha’i, not even a blip on the screen. Because they have never experienced the love and mercy of God in the sacraments, that wonderful union of God and man, it is difficult to express to them why their suggestion that we should look ahead to the next Big Thing falls on deaf ears. It is akin to telling me that I should look for a woman other than my wife (she was okay in her day) if I really want to know what love is. I have already found that love. I have no desire to look any further. Once you have found the treasure it is foolish to continue digging.
Steve,
. What comes to my mind is the Ten Commandments, which were a blueprint for individual behavior. When people followed this blueprint, a spiritual society came into being. God did not create that society other than by handing us His Ten Commandments as a blueprint. To the extent people follow these Commandments, there is a just and noble society. The behavior of society was further elevated with the acceptance of the teachings of Jesus, who brought Jew and Gentile together.

. It is difficult, from your position, to recognize the blueprint which Baha’is believe has been handed to those members of society who will implement it, because you have not recognized its Author as having the same authority God chose to confer upon Moses in His time, and Jesus in His.

. I have partaken of the Sacrament of the Eucharist and experienced its distinct spiritual flavor. I have also shared a similar flavor from partaking of the Sacred Pipe of the Lakota Sioux. For me they are the same. Therefore I can honestly say that I respect your tradition even as I respect the tradition of the Sioux.

. Having also been in an Ashram, I have partaken of their rites and respect their sacred traditions as well. I have yet to participate in a Synagogue or Mosque. God has given unto mankind many sacred ceremonies by which we have historically drawn closer to Him. It is good to share in these things.

. It is very good that you have found that love within your Faith. I remember many Church suppers in the local Catholic Church, and have many very fine Catholic friends. There is much good which has come from your Church.

. “Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.”

. from the Writings of Baha’u’llah
 
And one which we follow.
Please, daler, this is ludicrous for you to say. You deny and reject everything about Christianity except the fact that someone named Jesus was around back then. You then invent your own Jesus and tell the Catholic Church that it doesn’t know about what it speaks. The last thing you do is follow the Church. As a matter of fact your goal is to lead people away from the Church. “Jesus came, he was great, but now its time for someone new.” Sorry, that doesn’t mesh very well with following the Church.
. What appears to be the difficulty is over this verse which many people think was totally fulfilled at Pentecost, for there were some who interpreted it that way, and others have followed this interpretation.
Not only at Pentecost. Each and every day of each and every century since Pentecost as well.
What Baha’is see, however, is that the coming of the Spirit of Truth Who will guide us into all truth is in fact a reference to the Return, or the 2nd coming of Christ, at the time of the end, when the Books shall be unsealed.
Yes, we know this. And you are just wrong on all fronts. First of all, Christ has not yet returned. Second of all, Jesus’ reference to the Spirit of Truth was made to the Apostles, not to some far off generation. Thirdly, Jesus promised that he would not leave us orphans, which would not be the case if the Spirit of Truth was withheld until Mirza Husain came on the scene.
 
In my view Christianity has stressed salvation of the individual and it has implicitly suggested social values that are positive… The later social values have not been stressed as much perhaps as personal salvation but they are there nonetheless… I think Baha’is applaud any advances made toward world peace and representative world government.

Baha’is also accept the salvation of the soul as being nearness to God and more explicitly social advances in abandoning racial, class prejudice. Principles stressing universal education…advancement of women… end to racial discrimination have been at the forefront in our Faith.
But arthra, the real question is “WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE”? As you have acknowledged, the Catholic Church has been at the forefront of relieving human suffering, educating the ignorant, feeding the poor, housing the homeless… But it is all for naught if one looses his or her soul. That is why Christ came. To save our souls. And that is the primary mission of the Church.
 
Please, daler, this is ludicrous for you to say. You deny and reject everything about Christianity except the fact that someone named Jesus was around back then. You then invent your own Jesus and tell the Catholic Church that it doesn’t know about what it speaks. The last thing you do is follow the Church. As a matter of fact your goal is to lead people away from the Church. “Jesus came, he was great, but now its time for someone new.” Sorry, that doesn’t mesh very well with following the Church.

Yes, we know this. And you are just wrong on all fronts. First of all, Christ has not yet returned. Second of all, Jesus’ reference to the Spirit of Truth was made to the Apostles, not to some far off generation. Thirdly, Jesus promised that he would not leave us orphans, which would not be the case if the Spirit of Truth was withheld until Mirza Husain came on the scene.
Steve,
. You have your understanding and we have ours. It is good that you have unity within your church with so many people of the world, all of whom God has created. Since childhood, I longed for a wider unity, having grown up witnessing the oppression of my own Indian friends at the hands of “Christians” who refused them even the very right to worship God in their own tongue. My mother taught at one of those schools where Lakota children were beaten, locked up, and deprived of food until they gave up or got thrown out. I know quite well whereof I speak, my friend.

. The Lakota, as but one example, have ancient beliefs about the coming of their own Promised One. They were not allowed to express their beliefs openly, however, and it was essentially “illegal” to be an Indian, religiously, until a law was finally passed granting them religious freedom in the 1970s.

. What I have learned, through being “open” to understanding the beliefs of others, whether Indian or Hindu, Buddhist or Jew, Muslim or any other Faith is that there is much to be learned and appreciated by having a listening ear and an attitude not of superiority and condemnation, but of true equality and genuine respect.

. The “church” I follow admits all members of the human race and reverences traditional beliefs of all people in the knowledge that God is neither white nor black, Christian nor Jew, but the Source of all His creation, to whom He has given guidance through many Prophets, some of Whom were not Jewish, or recorded in the Old Testament.

. Sorry if this offends you, brother. It is not meant to. Just an honest reply.

. May the Great Spirit Wakan Tanka watch over you and bless you eternally…
 
Steve,
. What comes to my mind is the Ten Commandments, which were a blueprint for individual behavior. When people followed this blueprint, a spiritual society came into being. God did not create that society other than by handing us His Ten Commandments as a blueprint.
So God just kind of got us started and the rest is dependent upon us. Do I understand you correctly?
To the extent people follow these Commandments, there is a just and noble society.
And there’s the rub. Many refuse to follow God’s commandments. In fact, there is not a person alive who keeps the commandments always and at all times. We all fail. That is why we need a Savior, not so that we can have a better life on earth under some idea of a perfect human government, but so that we might have eternal life. It is not just a matter of following the commandments. It is a matter of a relationship. Our religion is not based upon writings. It is based upon a divine Person who did not just hand us a list of commands, but abides with us always and in many ways.
It is difficult, from your position, to recognize the blueprint which Baha’is believe has been handed to those members of society who will implement it, because you have not recognized its Author as having the same authority God chose to confer upon Moses in His time, and Jesus in His.
Actually that is not the reason and I don’t find it difficult at all. I reject it outright because I have fallen in love and will not be untrue to my beloved.
 
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