Baha'i V

[doormouse73]

Originally Posted by Red_Sox_1 View Post
Amazing.

It sounds like the Bab is saying “Before Muhammad was, I AM.”

Well essentially it is the same statement of Jesus:

“Before Abraham was, I am”

The Manifestations of God exist before the earth was formed.

Humans do not “pre-exist”, but rather come into existence at the time of conception.

The Manifestations already exist, as I understand it. They exist prior to taking on human form.

this is what Jesus warned us about,when e said many will come and deceive you they say that they are Jesus.but the are not…

you are not saying any thing new at all,you are not bringing nothing new at all.even the herisey you are doing has all been done before…

so what is the point in this thread? infact what is the point in listening to herisey? you are not here to listen,in my point of view your are here because you are gluttons for being shown for what you really are… that is mislead and confused about the true God,the most holy trinity…

yet you worship a man,nothing else…

it sounds like the people in the sixties , about John Lennon/Jim Morrison they said they were Gods too. lololol…

enough of me im get depressed listening to the same old same old… ive seen this show a million times it gets boring… time to change the channel… no offence to people at all in the bahai faith …

 

[daler]

But see you have a person who came years after Jesus telling us what Jesus taught. You claim to accept the word of God in the bible, but yet reject the teachings of the Apostles who tell us what Jesus meant.

They were there, So it comes down to, did Jesus give the power to teach and preach in his name as the bible states and reject these teaching you are claiming.

Or accept your version, and rejct the version of the Apostles hand picked by Jesus to teach?

Do you see what I am saying. What you are saying to me, as I see it, You accept what Jesus said, but we need Baha’i to come and tell us what he meant.

So what was his reason to APPOINT 12 Apostles and take all that time to teach them for? Was Jesus just bored, and wanted to confuse the people? It would make Jesus a liar or the Apostles liars for what they taught,

And if that the case, how can you even believe the word of God, it came from them.

Rinnie,
. Good to see you back. I think that for Baha’is, there is a sense that the words of the Manifestation of God are the truest guidance expressing the infallibility directly from God. People are not infallible, even those appointed as Apostles. They may be guided and influenced by the Holy Spirit, but they themselves do not speak the infallible Word of God. Only the Manifestations can do that.

. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment of “Christ shall return in the Glory of the Father”, for in English, the translation of the Arabic “Baha’u’llah” means the Glory of God, or the Glory of the Father.

. As a Christian, I was awaiting “the Return of Christ” in the Glory of the Father. As a Baha’i, I see that as having already happened. The Apostles guided the early believers and set up the Church, which was an Institution composed of men who were not themselves infallible. They expressed opinions, often differing with each other, and made decisions.

. For example, the Sabbath (Saturday) was discarded by a Pope in favor of the Pagan “Sunday” to appease the Pagans in an expedient compromise for essentially a kind of political gain with the intention of setting up an Institution with a wide following and lessen division. Other traces of pagan compromise are Christmas solstice and Easter, which continue to this day, along with Sunday replacing the Sabbath.

. The Baha’i belief is that God sends a Manifestation from time to time to reestablish His Will and authority, correcting the man-made insertions and stuff men made up for whatever reasons, teaching humanity from the Source, which is God, not from men, who are subject to their own interpretations and error.

 

[tonyfish58]

since red sox 1 has informed me that bahai can beleive anything they want so long as it does not contradict the bahai universal book, it seems fruitless to engage any bahai about anything other than what is defined by the universal book. all else is subjective to the bahai speaking or writing.

Well Eddie, I would have to agree with you there! That is very confusing

Just proves to me what Baha’u’llah said about discussing Faith. If one argues both are wrong, this topic has reached that point IMHO.

After the Prophet It is the Writings of the Religion that has the Authority. It is the writing that must be produced as proof of an argument.

Yes we can offer our view, but it must be made clear this is so. This way the view can be discussed using the Pure Word.

God Bless - Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

It was asked what has the Baha’i Faith brought to mankind that in New.

I have been thinking about this when I contemplate how divisive Words have become to Mankind, when the soul purpose of those Words were to unite us in the Love of God.

Then I though this is Gods Gift for this age, the New concept that Gods Love has always been given and that all True Religion is of God.

Thus if we can not use the Words to unite, we should be able to use the Love of God to do so. A Christian, A Muslim, A Jew, A Baha’i all Love God and that can not be Taken Away and no one wants to take that away from any person. Thus may be we should just pray for each other, share the Love of God and put away the Words for a while

A Prayer that we should all think about!

O Thou kind Lord! Thou hast created all humanity from the same stock. Thou hast decreed that all shall belong to the same household. In Thy Holy Presence they are all Thy servants, and all mankind are sheltered beneath Thy Tabernacle; all have gathered together at Thy Table of Bounty; all are illumined through the light of Thy Providence.
O God! Thou art kind to all, Thou hast provided for all, dost shelter all, conferrest life upon all. Thou hast endowed each and all with talents and faculties, and all are submerged in the Ocean of Thy Mercy.
O Thou kind Lord! Unite all. Let the religions agree and make the nations one, so that they may see each other as one family and the whole earth as one home. May they all live together in perfect harmony.
O God! Raise aloft the banner of the oneness of mankind.
O God! Establish the Most Great Peace.
Cement Thou, O God, the hearts together.
O Thou kind Father, God! Gladden our hearts through the fragrance of Thy love. Brighten our eyes through the Light of Thy Guidance. Delight our ears with the melody of Thy Word, and shelter us all in the Stronghold of Thy Providence.
Thou art the Mighty and Powerful, Thou art the Forgiving and Thou art the One Who overlooketh the shortcomings of all mankind. — ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

tony,
what you propose could be done if everyone agreed to ignore God’s self-revelation throughout history, beginning with adam and eve, continuing through noah, abraham, isaac and jacob, then with joseph, moses, josuah, gideon, david, amos, et al, and culminating in the Word made Flesh, Jesus Christ.

but to some, it would be ignorant if not stupid to disregard all of that self-revelation, throw it all out and decide only the most recent self-proclaimed revelation is relevant.

it is true that God desires all men to live in harmony with each other. bahaullah is not the first nor i suspect the last human being to express that particular revelation.

however, the way to all men living in harmony does not pass through ignoring all that God has revealed about Himself since the time of adam and eve.

in the end, tharmony cannot be achieved without accepting the truth.

declaring the truth to be relative, as the bahais does not overcome this problem, primarily because truth cannot be both relative and truth.

truth is what is eternally true, not a generation to generation reiteration of relativity.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

tony,
what you propose could be done if everyone agreed to ignore God’s self-revelation throughout history, beginning with adam and eve, continuing through noah, abraham, isaac and jacob, then with joseph, moses, josuah, gideon, david, amos, et al, and culminating in the Word made Flesh, Jesus Christ.

but to some, it would be ignorant if not stupid to disregard all of that self-revelation, throw it all out and decide only the most recent self-proclaimed revelation is relevant.

it is true that God desires all men to live in harmony with each other. bahaullah is not the first nor i suspect the last human being to express that particular revelation.

however, the way to all men living in harmony does not pass through ignoring all that God has revealed about Himself since the time of adam and eve.

in the end, tharmony cannot be achieved without accepting the truth.

declaring the truth to be relative, as the bahais does not overcome this problem, primarily because truth cannot be both relative and truth.

truth is what is eternally true, not a generation to generation reiteration of relativity.

Bahaullah doesnt claim that all truth is relative. The claim in His book “Tabernacle of Unity” is that all truths of other religions are relative compared to the Universal Revelation of Bahaullah.

Bahaullah claims this is the day that Heaven has been established on earth and all humankind is capable of seeing He Who was Hidden from the Divine Eyes of Moses and Jesus.

The Bab, in spite of His incredible Claim of “I AM”, states that He was the Herald to someone even greater, and the Bab described Himself as a humble ring on the Hand of Bahaullah that Bahaullah chooses to turn around his finger whichever way He wants to turn it.

---

Boston Red Sox World Champions!

 

[SteveVH]

i would not want to belong to a religion where truth is decided by a democratic vote.

Exactly!

 

[SteveVH]

It was asked what has the Baha’i Faith brought to mankind that in New.

I have been thinking about this when I contemplate how divisive Words have become to Mankind, when the soul purpose of those Words were to unite us in the Love of God.

Then I though this is Gods Gift for this age, the New concept that Gods Love has always been given and that all True Religion is of God.

What is “new” about this? Of course all “True Religion” is of God. What we have to decide is what is true and what is false. And when we have contradictions between religions it apparent that both cannot be true, at least as far as the contradictions go. Christ cannot be crucified and not crucified. Christ cannot be resurrected and not resurrected. Only one can be true.

 

[arthra]

Since pre-existence of the soul has come up we should say that it applies to the Manifestations … that the rest of us begin at conception.

The Souls of the Prophets are Pre-Existent

"The soul or spirit of the individual comes into being with the conception of his physical body.

"The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The Soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

"We cannot know God directly, but only through His Prophets. We can pray to Him, realizing that through His Prophets we know Him, or we can address our prayer in thought to Bahá’u’lláh, not as God but as the Door to our knowing God.

"We find God only through the Intermediary of His Prophet. We see the Perfection of God in His Prophets. Time and space are physical things, God, the Creator is not in a ‘place’ as we conceive of place in physical terms. God is the Infinite Essence, the Creator. We cannot picture Him or His state; if we did, we 505 would be His equals, not His Creatures. God is never flesh, but mirrored in the attributes of His Prophets, we see His Divine characteristics and perfections.

“Shoghi Effendi advises you to study ‘Some Answered Questions’ and the ‘Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh’ which help you to grasp these questions.”

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 9, 1947)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 504)

"You have raised the point about the time of the appearance of human soul. You are quite right in your deduction in this regard, as our teachings clearly confirm that the soul of man comes into being at conception."

From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, July 31, 1970

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 346)

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Since pre-existence of the soul has come up…
"You have raised the point about the time of the appearance of human soul. You are quite right in your deduction in this regard, as our teachings clearly confirm that the soul of man comes into being at conception."

From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, July 31, 1970

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 346)

I have a question for the other Baha’is here. i have never understood this statement. If the soul of man is immaterial and beyond time, then how can it come into being at a time? if as the Bahai writings assert that the soul of man lives in the spiritual world which is beyond this world of time-matter, how can the soul be said to have a start-time? the soul is beyond time. Perhaps “comes into being at conception” means that the soul is associated with the body at conception though the soul itself is not constrained by time.

 

[NoWings]

i would not want to belong to a religion where truth is decided by a democratic vote.

What an interesting statement. You belong to a religion whose catechism was codified through ecumenical councils where bishops either affirmed or denied certain tenets of faith after rigorous debate.

Or is the Holy Spirit only present during your group-think sessions?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
. Good to see you back. I think that for Baha’is, there is a sense that the words of the Manifestation of God are the truest guidance expressing the infallibility directly from God. People are not infallible, even those appointed as Apostles. They may be guided and influenced by the Holy Spirit, but they themselves do not speak the infallible Word of God. Only the Manifestations can do that.

. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment of “Christ shall return in the Glory of the Father”, for in English, the translation of the Arabic “Baha’u’llah” means the Glory of God, or the Glory of the Father.

. As a Christian, I was awaiting “the Return of Christ” in the Glory of the Father. As a Baha’i, I see that as having already happened. The Apostles guided the early believers and set up the Church, which was an Institution composed of men who were not themselves infallible. They expressed opinions, often differing with each other, and made decisions.

. For example, the Sabbath (Saturday) was discarded by a Pope in favor of the Pagan “Sunday” to appease the Pagans in an expedient compromise for essentially a kind of political gain with the intention of setting up an Institution with a wide following and lessen division. Other traces of pagan compromise are Christmas solstice and Easter, which continue to this day, along with Sunday replacing the Sabbath.

. The Baha’i belief is that God sends a Manifestation from time to time to reestablish His Will and authority, correcting the man-made insertions and stuff men made up for whatever reasons, teaching humanity from the Source, which is God, not from men, who are subject to their own interpretations and error.

But this is just not true, I don’t know where you go that. The RCC was never made up of decisions of fallible men.

On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit entered into them. And spoke to them. When the Pope and Bishops speak in the name of Christ it has NOTHING to do with what they think or decide.

This is a very false statement. And remember what Jesus said lets not bare false witness against our neighbor

What you are saying is not what the Church teaches or has ever taught. If you believe in God as the Son Jesus you have to accept what he said.

He said he would lead the Church through these men until the end of time. So you either accept the true word of God or reject it. But please be fair, and admit that Jesus never said he would leave us orphans.
He said he never would in fact,

So by what you are saying you completely contradicted the word of God.

So while I accept that you do not accept the word of God in the bible, just as I reject your teaching, you must admit it would not be fair to me to claim something your faith never taught.

God told the Apostles when you speak in my name I WILL give you the words. Now you either accept the word of God or don’t. But you have to agree thats what the bible says.

Lets be fair okay.

 

[Servant19]

It is stated in paragraph 143. It is restated in Tajalliyat’s second to last paragraph. See also Suriyi Haykal paragraph 45.

Thankyou for this Red Sox

Truly I, having read all the above Writings of Baha’u’llah had never really READ them. Such is the invincible might of the Word of God. You read it within one context and gain so much.

A few months or years later, you read and study it again and it fulfils the meanings behind the realities of experience.

The understanding of the station of the Supreme Manifestation of God, Baha’u’llah is a constant journey along a path of wonderful delights. As you approach His Presence, you are awestruck with the love and glory!

 

[Vouthon]

The Baha’is, unlike Catholics, are allowed to disagree over our personal understanding our the Bahai writings so long as we are obedient to the instructions and clarifications of the Universal House of Justice.

May I ask where you got the idea that Catholic are not permitted to have personal understandings of scripture or divine revelation in general from?

Such has never been the Catholic way, or else we would never have had theologians, bible study groups, mystics who had spiritual insights into matters of the faith and so on.

Vatican II explicitly contradicts this:

“…The Tradition that comes from the Apostles makes progress in the Church. There is growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers. It comes from intimate sense of the spiritual truths which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who received, along with the right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth…”

- Vatican II (Dei verbum, no. 8).

So both the laity ( or believers in general or theologians) and the teaching authority of the church expressed through the “sure charism of truth” that the bishops (successors of the apostles) hold can help the Sacred Tradition of the Church “grow in insight” and “make progress”.

Therefore Catholics can actually contribute to the development of doctrine as guided by the Holy Spirit; when receive or develop through deep thought insights into the never-ending riches of sacred scripture and sacred tradition.

Hence why we have an undying number of fathers, saints, mystics, theologians and others who have shared their spiritual insights and understandings, some of which have subsequently been approved by the Magisterium.

A look at Catholic history, even a cursory one, can kill tis flat. St. Catherine of Genoa, for example, greatly developed our understanding of the doctrine of purgatory through her own experiences that were later approved by the Magisterium.

The Catholic motto always been in tune with the spirit of one 17th century bishop who said: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas (unity in necessary things; liberty in doubtful things; charity in all things).

Or as Blessed Pope John XXIII said:

“…All men, then, should …] be joined in mutual and just regard for one another’s opinions…The Catholic Church leaves many questions open to discussion of theologians. She does this to the extent that matters are not absolutely certain. Far from jeopardizing the Church’s unity, controversies…can actually pave the way for its attainment. For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark. But the common saying…must be recalled with approval: in essentials, unity, in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity…”

- Blessed Pope John XXIII, AD PETRI CATHEDRAM (On Truth, Unity and Peace), 1959

It should be no shock then that Pope John included in his opening address to the Council Fathers on October, 11, 1962 this statement: “And everything, even human differences, lead to the greater good of the Church.”

 

[daler]

I have a question for the other Baha’is here. i have never understood this statement. If the soul of man is immaterial and beyond time, then how can it come into being at a time? if as the Bahai writings assert that the soul of man lives in the spiritual world which is beyond this world of time-matter, how can the soul be said to have a start-time? the soul is beyond time. Perhaps “comes into being at conception” means that the soul is associated with the body at conception though the soul itself is not constrained by time.

My sense of understanding eternity is that this world does not fit inside that box. The body is associated with the soul, and the body is associated in this world with time. So when the soul is conceived, it is empowered to construct a body from this world of the elements as a process of learning and exercising will for the purpose of drawing closer to God. When the body dies, this whole set of instruments we call the body and naturally associate with our selves dissipates and we lose all of that. We discover our true reality, which is not, and never has been, physical, as that is just a temporary construct for a purpose: to know and love God.

The fetus forms, then at birth, separates from the placenta and cord. The baby continues growing, developing its first set of teeth, for example, then sheds them at the appropriate time and grows another set. In time, we shed not only the second set of teeth but the jaws and the skull that holds them, and the feet that carry, the arms that reach, the eyes that see, the tongue that speaks, etc.

So from the perspective of growth, we keep growing and shedding atoms and limbs and organs as they fulfill their purpose for us and are no longer needed. Then we are freed from this mortal cage and soar without wings, metaphorically, into the atmosphere of the spiritual world, no longer dependent upon the earthly supply of particles and physical energy.

We never are “the body”, but the body is associated with our soul, which requires it for a time. The soul then does not exist in time. Its beginning is associated with this world, but the next world is without time. Also, language cannot describe it. We just have learned to say heaven or the Abha Kingdom, etc.

 

[Servant19]

May I ask where you got the idea that Catholic are not permitted to have personal understandings of scripture or divine revelation in general from?

Such has never been the Catholic way, or else we would never have had theologians, bible study groups, mystics who had spiritual insights into matters of the faith and so on.

Vatican II explicitly contradicts this:

So both the laity ( or believers in general or theologians) and the teaching authority of the church expressed through the “sure charism of truth” that the bishops (successors of the apostles) hold can help the Sacred Tradition of the Church “grow in insight” and “make progress”.

Therefore Catholics can actually contribute to the development of doctrine as guided by the Holy Spirit; when receive or develop through deep thought insights into the never-ending riches of sacred scripture and sacred tradition.

Hence why we have an undying number of fathers, saints, mystics, theologians and others who have shared their spiritual insights and understandings, some of which have subsequently been approved by the Magisterium.

A look at Catholic history, even a cursory one, can kill tis flat. St. Catherine of Genoa, for example, greatly developed our understanding of the doctrine of purgatory through her own experiences that were later approved by the Magisterium.

The Catholic motto always been in tune with the spirit of one 17th century bishop who said: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas (unity in necessary things; liberty in doubtful things; charity in all things).

Or as Blessed Pope John XXIII said:

It should be no shock then that Pope John included in his opening address to the Council Fathers on October, 11, 1962 this statement: “And everything, even human differences, lead to the greater good of the Church.”

Hi Vouthon, very nice post and very much in line with Bahai thinking

I think this idea that it was wrong to have differences in understanding of the Word of God stemmed from one of Eddies posts where he used it as a means to falsify the Bahai Faith.

I think Red Sox was referencing Eddie and those who shared his concerns

God bless you brother

 

[daler]

But this is just not true, I don’t know where you go that. The RCC was never made up of decisions of fallible men.

On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit entered into them. And spoke to them. When the Pope and Bishops speak in the name of Christ it has NOTHING to do with what they think or decide.

This is a very false statement. And remember what Jesus said lets not bare false witness against our neighbor

What you are saying is not what the Church teaches or has ever taught. If you believe in God as the Son Jesus you have to accept what he said.

He said he would lead the Church through these men until the end of time. So you either accept the true word of God or reject it. But please be fair, and admit that Jesus never said he would leave us orphans.
He said he never would in fact,

So by what you are saying you completely contradicted the word of God.

So while I accept that you do not accept the word of God in the bible, just as I reject your teaching, you must admit it would not be fair to me to claim something your faith never taught.

God told the Apostles when you speak in my name I WILL give you the words. Now you either accept the word of God or don’t. But you have to agree thats what the bible says.

Lets be fair okay.

Rinnie,
. No offense intended. I may not have been concentrating very well. Suffering from some pretty intense back pain lately. Doing a little better tonight. I will try to rephrase or construct a better thought here. Thank you for your understanding. I’m just trying to share my understanding without judging you or your beliefs while trying to express mine.

. In saying that Christ promised to guide these souls until the time of the end, which I think you mean when He returns, right? So I accept that the souls were guided, however I have some trouble with what has happened in history and thus must question the total infallibility when obviously there were some major breakdowns, for which Martin Luther, for example, refused to buy into the indulgences, etc. So it would seem that the structure of the Institution, in some of its practices, was subject to error.

. In the essential truths of the Holy Spirit, when people are faithful to the Covenant of God, they will be guided and protected spiritually, but intellectually they might disagree with each other according to their outward understandings. Thus, certain cultural practices for example, may vary, such as how baptism is handled. It seems the further north you go, there was a tendency to “sprinkle”, rather than dunk. Fewer kids got pneumonia that way, ya know…

. As for the Baha’is, we have good reason to believe that the time of the end foretold by Daniel occurred in 1844, as that was the end of the 2300 days (years) prophecy, which also coincided with the close of the 1260 year period, both foretold by Daniel and John in Revelation. You can read about that yourself or talk to some 7th Day Adventists who happen to be into those time prophecies, although their conclusion of the 1260 is totally inaccurate and biased against the Papacy. I strongly disagree with them on the latter, and for good reason, as the year 1260 AH is 1844 AD.

. Either this is coincidental, or it means something. For Baha’is it means something, for as Jeremiah said in Chp 49, “The Lord shall set His throne in Elam”, which He did, in 1844, in the person of the Bab, thus fulfilling the prophecies regarding the time of the end.

 

[Servant19]

Amazing.

It sounds like the Bab is saying “Before Muhammad was, I AM.”

And it also makes it sounds like He is saying that Muhammad is still alive…

 

[Servant19]

i believe the catholic theologian origen in the second century AD also proposed the pre-existence of souls. so, it is nothing new. it is important to know that the pre-existence of souls was soundly rejected by the RCC subsequently.

but as the bahai say, the truth is not that important. is most important that we all agree that the truth is not that important, or something like that.

The concept of “before Abraham was, I AM” or “before Muhammad was, I AM” is not in reference to any souls, it is in reference to the pre-existent life of a Manifestation of God, so the RCC needs not worry, this is not heretical

 

[Servant19]

What is “new” about this? Of course all “True Religion” is of God. What we have to decide is what is true and what is false. And when we have contradictions between religions it apparent that both cannot be true, at least as far as the contradictions go. Christ cannot be crucified and not crucified. Christ cannot be resurrected and not resurrected. Only one can be true.

For many millions Steve, these contradictions have been completely “obliterated” by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

There are some who struggle with these contradictions for years, and the explanations given by Baha’u’llah provide that “AHA!” moment which brings them (as a leopard) to lie down with the person who was the goat. The wolf now lives with the lamb.

There are some who having struggled with these contradictions for years, who knew from the stirrings of their pure hearts, that there MUST be a resolution. How can a billion Catholics be right and a billion Muslims be right? Upon reading the Writings of Baha’u’llah, the flood gates are opened and finally, FINALLY they can live a life which is in harmony with what their inner elf and pure soul has been yearning for in vain.

I have seen it with my own eyes. The inner longing of EVERY SINGLE soul is to commune with its Creator. And when they hear their Creator calling them, they recognize, for we, the sheep, recognize the Voice of our Shepherd. Upon reading the Words of Baha’u’llah for the first time, I have seem goosebumps, I have seen unstoppable tears.

“Everything I always wanted to know but was unable to understand was just given to me” said one.