Baha'i V

[Red_Sox_1]

red sox,

why does it seem irrational for the bahai to declare this world illusory and then simultaneously turn around and place most of the emphasis of its teachings on the desire and need to transform this illusion?

It is sort of true what you say, because Baha’u’llah claims he came for our souls, not our bodies. But as the bodies and physical world are like the shadow cast by our spiritual realities, the shadow in this day must emulate all spiritual qualities of true reality.

 

[eddie_too]

red sox,

it seems that the bahai mean temporary when they say illusory and without end when they say real?

would the universal house of justice accept such a summation as being in accord with the bahai religion?

 

[eddie_too]

red sox,

earlier you wrote that bahaullah taught the salvific effect of Jesus Christ.

if so, then through the efforts of Jesus Christ, human souls had already been saved.

would that not mean that bahaullah’s efforts had nothing to do with the salvation of souls?

Jesus had clearly taught the doctrine of eternal life and the immortality of human souls.

there was no real need for bahaullah to claim such a teaching as his own.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

red sox,

it seems that the bahai mean temporary when they say illusory and without end when they say real?

would the universal house of justice accept such a summation as being in accord with the bahai religion?

Here are some verses of the Hidden Words:

O SON OF THE SUPREME! To the eternal I call thee, yet thou dost seek that which perisheth. What hath made thee turn away from Our desire and seek thine own?

O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?

O SON OF SPIRIT! With the joyful tidings of light I hail thee: rejoice! To the court of holiness I summon thee; abide therein that thou mayest live in peace for evermore.

O SON OF BEING! Seek a martyr’s death in My path, content with My pleasure and thankful for that which I ordain, that thou mayest repose with Me beneath the canopy of majesty behind the tabernacle of glory.

O SON OF BEING! If thine heart be set upon this eternal, imperishable dominion, and this ancient, everlasting life, forsake this mortal and fleeting sovereignty.

O SON OF BEING! Busy not thyself with this world, for with fire We test the gold, and with gold We test Our servants.

O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved.

 

[eddie_too]

red sox,

those quotations simply sound like reformulation of the teachings of Jesus Christ, albeit more abtruse than Jesus.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

if so, then through the efforts of Jesus Christ, human souls had already been saved.

would that not mean that bahaullah’s efforts had nothing to do with the salvation of souls?

Hi Eddie, I think there is some truth in what you are saying yes. I think Baha’u’llah’s efforts builds on top of the salvific effect of Jesus Christ, not a replacement or repeat of it. It has been proposed by some that Baha’u’llah came not to save the individual human beings (something Jesus Christ did), but to save the body of the planet Earth by uniting all its people.

 

[eddie_too]

red sox,

save the body of the planet earth from what?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Hi Eddie, I think there is some truth in what you are saying yes. I think Baha’u’llah’s efforts builds on top of the salvific effect of Jesus Christ, not a replacement or repeat of it. It has been proposed by some that Baha’u’llah came not to save the individual human beings (something Jesus Christ did), but to save the body of the planet Earth by uniting all its people.

I think Baha’u’llah says this Himself when He wrote:

**Verily, He [Jesus] said: ‘Come ye after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.’

In this day, however, We say: ‘Come ye after Me, that We may make you to become the quickeners of mankind.’
**

Fishers of men seems to be a reference to the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ to save each individual human being. See Matthew 4:19.

Quickeners of mankind seems to be a reference to the unification of the planet earth.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

red sox,

save the body of the planet earth from what?

In April 1890 Professor Edward Granville Browne of Cambridge University met Bahá’u’lláh in four successive interviews. Professor Browne wrote of his first meeting: “The face of Him on Whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one’s very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow.… No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain.”

Bahá’u’lláh stated at that meeting:

“… That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled — what harm is there in this? … Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come.… Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind.”

 

[eddie_too]

red sox,

for bahai, is bahaullah’s concept of saving of the earth really a metaphor for the unification of mankind?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

red sox,

for bahai, is bahaullah’s concept of saving of the earth really a metaphor for the unification of mankind?

Yes, but unification is spiritual rather than through political policies, agendas, or international schemes. Jesus’s salvation is also considered spiritual such that it is different from say a medical doctor or surgeon saving someone from death.

 

[daler]

red sox,

for bahai, is bahaullah’s concept of saving of the earth really a metaphor for the unification of mankind?

Eddie,
. If I may address a couple of essential differences to our understanding of “where” the Revelation of Baha’u’llah comes from in relation to other Revelations, from Moses, Jesus, etc.

. Consider “if” the Source (God) of all the “true” religions is One, and that from time to time that One Source makes Its will known to mankind through the vehicle of the Prophets. That when what Baha’is call a Manifestation of God appears, He has no need to refer to the constructs and dogmas of the Institutions which hold various positions and interpretations, for He is connected to the Source directly.

. This is the position of Baha’u’llah. He is the “Dayspring of Revelation” and the “Fountain of His Laws” for this age. This is the Baha’i belief. That a few fundamental differences between what He has stated and the understandings of men exist is obvious, but it is in the recognition of His station as a Manifestation of God that Baha’is see all that is authentic in His Writings taking precedence over all that has been previously revealed.

. He confirms that which is accurate in the previous Scriptures and sheds light upon that which was “sealed”, as in Daniel and Revelation. He corrects misinterpretations held by the followers and divines of the various Dispensations of past religions, exposes superstitions for what they are, and dismisses certain literal interpretations as illogical.

. He consults no one, refers to no human intelligence as a resource. He is independent of human learning. His knowledge is innate, and comes from God, even as Jesus’ knowledge was innate, and He was not dependent upon the knowledge of the Pharisees or human learning.

. He comes in fulfillment of prophecies, numerous prophecies which can be independently confirmed, from the Old and New Testaments, to Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, and Native American prophecies.

. All of these are self-evident upon thorough examination. The research done is exhaustive and comprehensive at a level of scholarship equal to or surpassing all independent scholarship of the highest standards.

. The greatest proofs, however, are the verses of God, the Word as it has been revealed, for it is the Voice of God spoken through His Mouthpiece. In Moses time, it was Him. In Jesus time, it was Him. At the time of Muhammad, He was this Divine Instrument. Most recently, it is the Bab and then Baha’u’llah.

 

[eddie_too]

i would like to know what unique and new revelation bahaullah provided to mankind.

 

[doormouse73]

sorry for interrupting,but why do the bahai s keep putting Jesus with other prophets before him?he was the word made flesh.why do they not talk about his divinity?he is the son of God,the Father the Son the Holy Spirit…

there where no prophets after Jesus he was the first and the last… man and divinity

every race,nation and tongue have been told of the good news the Gospels the saviour Jesus Christ…

for gentile and jews… gentile meaning peoples and nations…

so really Jesus has already got that covered, along with the spiritual side… along with the afterlife…so what is left??

 

[daler]

i would like to know what unique and new revelation bahaullah provided to mankind.

Eddie,
. There is a fundamental difference in understanding the verse of Jesus which is applicable to your question. It has to do with Jesus saying: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear it now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you unto all Truth.”

. I am familiar with the common interpretation of Christians that this refers to Pentecost, and the reasoning behind it, for I was raised with that belief myself. The Baha’i belief is that Baha’u’llah revealed that which mankind was not yet ready to bear, which Jesus was fully capable of revealing, but did not because we weren’t yet ready.

. It is like a plant, receiving a dose of sunlight each day. It isn’t ready for all the photons it will receive in a thousand years times 365 days per year. It is a measurement according to the needs and the capacity of the plant. God set it up that way.

. So it is the same with people and the Revelation of God, which in this day, is a much greater outpouring, because we have grown over the course of 2000 years, having had that much time to digest the dose Jesus gave us. What Baha’u’llah now gives will suffice for the next thousand(s) years until the next Manifestation of God comes to bring more according to our capacity at that time. For now, we have that which will suffice for this stage, which is that of the One Fold and the One Shepherd, for which all religions spoke of and prepared us for. This is that day, and Baha’u’llah’s Revelation is for that purpose.

. As to the statement of Jesus, here is what Abdul Baha wrote:

. "*“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.”

***The concourse of the Gospel have presently fallen lost in the wilderness of error and purblindness and thus have considered as naught these assertions of the Gospel which are explicitly clear and without allusiveness. This concourse of Christians have clung to interpretations based on their own imaginings. Thus they say that the purpose of the above verses is the descent of the Holy Spirit, the descent that occurred after the ascension of His holiness Christ upon the disciples. This is in truth the customary way of all peoples[9] and religious communities in that they close their eyes to the strong and firm meanings of the divine verses and then they adhere to suppositional and dubious interpretations. Now you should consider how much their assertion is trivial and invalid:

***Firstly. He sayeth: He shall not come unless I go away. This utterance indicates that He, the Spirit, the Comforter was not there at the time of Christ and that He would come afterwards. But the Holy Spirit was inseparably and always co-existing with Christ. So there would otherwise be no meaning to the saying: He shall not come unless I go away.

***Secondly. He said: I have many things to explain to you but you do not posses the capacity to bear them; but that Sanctified Spirit of Truth will expound these things and lead you into all truth.

***Now consider further: In accord with Christian Teaching, the Holy Spirit is the Third Hypostasis[13] and the Spirit Jesus Christ is the Second Hypostasis. Could it be the case that after all the training imparted by the two Hypostases the veils of ignorance and lack of knowledge were not torn asunder and the disciples were not confirmed with the full guidance of truth? Were they then after the ascension of that Supreme Luminary receiving the hidden unseen mysteries and the concealed and sealed Lordly wisdoms from the Third Hypostasis? Did they then only become able to hear these truths? Rather it is obvious that if under the shade of guidance of that Essence of Essences and the Spirit of Spirits and with all the confirmations of the Holy spirit if souls be not educated and trained, and, if the soul’s dark veils were still not burned away, then the breaths of the Holy spirit [alone] would have no effect for a hundred thousand years. And herein is manifest and recognizable truth.

***Thus it has become clear and proven from those blessed Johannine verses that after the Beauty of Jesus another Honoured Soul and Great Beauty will appear Whose training will be even greater than the education imparted by Christ, the Spirit of God.

***Thirdly He said: That Comforter will not speak from Himself. That means He shall be aided by the hosts of divine Revelation. He shall declare and expound all that reaches His Blessed Hearing from the Kingdom of Glory.

***Consider again, how clear it is. This means that that Comforting Spirit is a Person Who wilt be inspired with heavenly Inspirations and be the Repository of Lordly Revelations. Further, the Holy Spirit doth not have ears with which to hear. The references that the disciples adduced as proof from the Torah with respect to the Advent of Christ were never with this degree of explicitness."

.

 

[daler]

sorry for interrupting,but why do the bahai s keep putting Jesus with other prophets before him?he was the word made flesh.why do they not talk about his divinity?he is the son of God,the Father the Son the Holy Spirit…

there where no prophets after Jesus he was the first and the last… man and divinity

every race,nation and tongue have been told of the good news the Gospels the saviour Jesus Christ…

for gentile and jews… gentile meaning peoples and nations…

so really Jesus has already got that covered, along with the spiritual side… along with the afterlife…so what is left??

Doormouse,
. To a large extent, your question is answered in the above post #804. Briefly, there have always been Prophets and Messengers sent by God for the edification of mankind, but each stage of religion demonstrates that there are some who cling to the notion that no Prophet will appear until such and such happens to literally fulfill certain prophecies. This is why the Jews rejected Christ, and still await His coming.
. Similarly, the Christians hold that no Prophet shall come after Jesus, despite His clear indications that He shall come as a Thief in the Night, telling all to “Watch therefore, for ye know not what hour the thief comes” Typically, the thief comes and goes while people are asleep. Hence: “Watch”
. Muslims are confounded by the phrase: Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets. They misinterpret this to mean that no Prophet shall come after Muhammad. Nevertheless, they are waiting for the Mahdi and the Return of Christ, as are the Christians.

. So the Jews await the coming of the Lord of Hosts.
. And the Christians await the Return of Christ.
. And the Muslims await the Mahdi, etc.

. Also, the Zoroastrians (the Magi were these) await Shah Bahram
. The Buddhists await Maitreye
. The Hindus await the Return of Krsna
. Various Native Americans await their Promised Messiah, as well.

. Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment of all of these prophecies. He is the Promised One of all Religions, and those who have come to recognize Him as such are His followers, the Baha’is.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

red sox,

i understand your point. in response, i point to the fact that the universal house of justice (the bahai’s elected body with final say on what the bahai teach) have reiterated that the New Testament authors got it wrong…

I’ve noticed this idea a couple of times in the thread. Just to clarify, the House of Justice does not have, and does not claim to have, any say in matters of doctrine and the interpretation of scriptures. That is strictly the sphere of the Bahai writings and their authorised interpreters, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. The Universal House of Justice writes:

Unity of doctrine is maintained by the existence of the authentic texts of Scripture and the voluminous interpretations of 'Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, together with the absolute prohibition against anyone propounding “authoritative” or “inspired” interpretations or usurping the function of Guardian. Unity of administration is assured by the authority of the Universal House of Justice.
(9 March 1965)

The elucidations of the Universal House of Justice stem from its legislative function, and as such differ from interpretation. The divinely inspired legislation of the House of Justice does not attempt to say what the revealed Word means --** it states what must be done** in cases where the revealed Text or its authoritative interpretation is not explicit.
(1994 Dec 15, )

The separation of the two spheres of doctrine and action, or of scriptural interpretation and legislation (of canon law), was fairly explicit in Abdu’l-Baha’s Will and Testament, and worked out in detail by Shoghi Effendi in The Dispensation of Baha’u’llah:

the Guardian of the Faith has been made the Interpreter of the Word and that the Universal House of Justice has been invested with the function of legislating on matters not expressly revealed in the teachings. The interpretation of the Guardian, functioning within his own sphere, is as authoritative and binding as the enactments of the International House of Justice, whose exclusive right and prerogative is to pronounce upon and deliver the final judgment on such laws and ordinances as Bahá’u’lláh has not expressly revealed. Neither can, nor will ever, infringe upon the sacred and prescribed domain of the other. Neither will seek to curtail the specific and undoubted authority with which both have been divinely invested.
(published in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 149)

In practice this means that the House of Justice does not specify what Bahai teachings are, so we do not have (and I think never can have) a catechism. We can and do have manuals of procedure and guidelines of common action.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Then this seems to be core of the difference. Baha’u’llah insisted on the Resurrection of Christ.

However, Baha’u’llah taught that man is fully man when he separates from the body. This is the opposite of what you seem to be saying. Baha’u’llah taught that the Body is the source of human sin and error, and when the soul separates from the body, man is able to live free of sin and error.

Do you have a source for " Baha’u’llah taught that the Body is the source of human sin and error," Red Sox? I never heard of such an idea, in the Writings or in the Bahai community.

Abdu’l-Baha rather says that the darkened self or the insistent ego is what leads to sin;

In this, the Bahá’í dispensation, God’s Cause is spirit unalloyed… ; its one crusade is against the insistent self, the evil promptings of the human heart. Its victory is to submit and yield, and to be selfless is its everlasting glory. In brief, it is spirit upon spirit:
(Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 256)

We are not told to lay aside the body and cultivate the soul, but to “Lay aside the evil and adopt the good.” (Abdu’l-Baha, A Traveller’s Narrative, p. 48). The body is part of God’s creation, how could it be the source of sin?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Do you have a source for " Baha’u’llah taught that the Body is the source of human sin and error," Red Sox? I never heard of such an idea, in the Writings or in the Bahai community.

Abdu’l-Baha rather says that the darkened self or the insistent ego is what leads to sin;

We are not told to lay aside the body and cultivate the soul, but to “Lay aside the evil and adopt the good.” (Abdu’l-Baha, A Traveller’s Narrative, p. 48). The body is part of God’s creation, how could it be the source of sin?

Hi, i think you are correct Sen. I meant attachment to the body is the source of sin and error, not that the physical world by essence is evil. For evil, cold, and darkness are the absence of good, heat, and light. Do you have a problem with this formulation as well?

 

[doormouse73]

Doormouse,
. To a large extent, your question is answered in the above post #804. Briefly, there have always been Prophets and Messengers sent by God for the edification of mankind, but each stage of religion demonstrates that there are some who cling to the notion that no Prophet will appear until such and such happens to literally fulfill certain prophecies. This is why the Jews rejected Christ, and still await His coming.
. Similarly, the Christians hold that no Prophet shall come after Jesus, despite His clear indications that He shall come as a Thief in the Night, telling all to “Watch therefore, for ye know not what hour the thief comes” Typically, the thief comes and goes while people are asleep. Hence: “Watch”
. Muslims are confounded by the phrase: Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets. They misinterpret this to mean that no Prophet shall come after Muhammad. Nevertheless, they are waiting for the Mahdi and the Return of Christ, as are the Christians.

. So the Jews await the coming of the Lord of Hosts.
. And the Christians await the Return of Christ.
. And the Muslims await the Mahdi, etc.

. Also, the Zoroastrians (the Magi were these) await Shah Bahram
. The Buddhists await Maitreye
. The Hindus await the Return of Krsna
. Various Native Americans await their Promised Messiah, as well.

. Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment of all of these prophecies. He is the Promised One of all Religions, and those who have come to recognize Him as such are His followers, the Baha’is.

so really Jesus has already got that covered, along with the spiritual side… along with the afterlife…so what is left??

that was my final line in the post,Jesus was man and divine…

the son of God…

you have not answered nothing in theat post…

how can a mere man full of sin think he is above God??

he covers what is needed to make the world a better place to live and in turn he has shown by doing this you have a chance of living in the after life…

so really Jesus has already got that covered, along with the spiritual side… along with the afterlife…so what is left??

you are bringing nothing new its all been done before…

and for the the way you use the word,WORD. have you ever heard the saying talk is cheap?

well Jesus did the action to back it up all the way to the resurrection.then came back to Apostles,then to Saul who became Paul.i cant seem to have read were Jesus came back to your man though,and changed all that he had taught to his Apostles/Disciples which have been going on for 2000 years… he fulfilled prophesy from the OT.by lots of prophets… pentecost was what Jesus meant and shown by the works the desciples did.proof was in the pudding by the fruit it bears…

im sorry… you mean well. but like i say talk is cheap… Jesus …all nations and peoples… after life,salvation… its all been covered. im sorry you are barking up the wrong tree.

all the very best to you.