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Elizabeth502
Guest
Yes. It’s called Mediate Material Cooperation with evil. (A term in Catholic moral theology.) Distinguished from Immediate Material Cooperation and from Formal Cooperation.
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Bezant
Guest
I think I feel similarly. In the end it suited both the baker and the couple–I wouldn’t want services from someone who didn’t like my lifestyle–but there’s a fine line in this matter before you implicitly justify discrimination based on race, religion, etc.
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Orogeny
Guest
The wedding cake for a same-sex “marriage” is for celebration, right? By providing the cake, the baker would be giving a tool to the two women to celebrate their sinful activities. The wedding cake is part of the celebration of a “marriage”. Two people of the same sex cannot be married (I am speaking from a Catholic viewpoint, not a secular viewpoint). Providing a cake that celebrates two women pledging to sin with each other is wrong. ANYTHING that encourages or celebrates such an action should be avoided.
Peace
Tim
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
This debate is about a baker who refused to bake a cake for the ‘wedding’ of a same sex couple. It’s the context of your much simplified premise. The baker put her Christian principle of not facilitating or enabling sin above the profit she would make had she decided to make a cake for this couple.
Is that an exercise of religious freedom or an exercise of bigotry and discrimination as some would put it? To me it’s the first.
Further, the Iowa same sex couple came in for a taste test, according to the linked article in the OP. Therefore, they were shopping and were not committed to going with this product (cake) provider; nor did the baker commit to baking the cake. The wedding plan could not have come to a halt, as this paper or reporter framed in the first sentence of the ‘news’ report. But leave it to a left leaning liberal media which is propagating the pro-gay concept that tolerance of a lifestyle means surrender of a religious or moral belief. And leave it to non-discerning Catholics to fall in line with said thinking.
I agree with Catharina and a number of posters who weighed in. The following posts have sufficiently expounded the reasons that the baker made a judgment call consistent with her faith.
Baking the cake is not a form of Agape “love,” a Jesus love, a Christian love. Rather, it is validation of an immoral arrangement which Jesus thoroughly repudiated by embracing Mosaic Law comprehensively.
Baking the cake also mocks genuine, actual marriage (as opposed to baking one for a previously fornicating couple who decides to validate their marriage by now formalizing it in a genuine marriage, thus repudiating, by that action, their previous lifestyle).
For a practicing Catholic or believing Christian who understands the way Scripture actually works, and how the silence, in the Gospels, about homosexuality, indicates the opposite of assent for the behavior, baking the cake is:
Emotionalism
Sentimentality
Political Correctness: ‘Hey man, I’m cool/You’re cool.’
Moral Cowardice
And it is the same for any other believer, as well as an agnostic or atheist who objects to the artificiality of SS “marriage,” yet concedes to bake the cake for monetary reasons or the reasons above.
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Leegal
Guest
Interesting and on point. If the law protects equal access to a public business, but the request would force someone to do something that violates a religious belief or teaching, it will be interesting on how this would play out if a complaint were made.
Since NYS has passed gay marriage, marriage is a “right” here, not in every state, I expect this will come up here soon enough.
While the state has sanctioned these unions as marriages by law, they cannot force a priest to perform one. I wonder how far that protection for the Church extends?
It’s the ceremony that’s at issue, or whether or not the proprietor’s refusal to bake a cake could extend beyond the business of making cakes to a refusal to participate in a ceremony, by making a cake.
Is making a cake for a gay marriage the equivalent of participating or acknowledging a same sex marriage? (It’s rhetorical).
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Warrior1979
Guest
I think it would be a good opportunity to make up by baking cakes for each other. Cakes make people happy.This is the point where the mods come in and tell us to stop quibbling or the thread will be closed.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
I’d like a nice carrot cake, please!I think it would be a good opportunity to make up by baking cakes for each other. Cakes make people happy.
Heavy on the cream cheese icing.
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ivebeenshown
Guest
Yeah, if anyone is gonna fire up the oven, some red velvet por favor.I’d like a nice carrot cake, please!
Heavy on the cream cheese icing.
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SwissGuard25
Guest
Gay or not they’re still people.
your not making people a wedding cake because they’re different.
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SwissGuard25
Guest
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Corpus_Cristi
Guest
I’m failing to understand how this story relates to moral theology. The story is basically this: couple is denied cake by private baker for a reception to follow their ceremony on grounds of religious conviction. Fair enough. It’s her business and she can run it how she wants to. The further comment that the baker is right for doing so isn’t really a theological statement. It’s a statement that the baker’s choice is just and right (especially for the reason that she did). Why wasn’t this posted in the social justice forum?
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MartyrForJesus
Guest
By supporting their wedding by making a cake for them, you are making Mediate Material Cooperation with evil.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
No. You don’t get this. Use your critical thinking tools with which God bestowed you.
It is not a cake for “people.” It is a cake for a particular occasion. That’s the difference. The cake is marking, celebrating an occasion which ascribes to itself an institution (marriage) which belongs to heterosexual unions, not homosexual union. As Catholics, we are not to be supporting such occasions. That’s what this is about.
Very different if two self-pronounced gays (or one self-pronounced gay) come into the same bakery to order a non-wedding cake, or any other baked goods. I see no reason why a baker should not in charity and without partiality provide generic services to gays, to people she does not like, to people known to be living another controversial lifestyle, etc.
What part of wedding cake do you not understand?
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catharina
Guest
The cake is created to be a centerpiece of a festive union,
a union that is totally forbidden by our Faith. Cake-Baker Lady
knows this and she refused to put her time and effort into THAT cake.
Her choice, her right. At 13 yrs old, it might seem to be “just a cake” to you.
Yet for many other older souls THIS cake is a part of celebrating
a forbidden union that pretends to be a form of holiness (Sacramental
Marriage.) Who wants to participate in celebrating a vile action?
I wouldn’t want to do that.
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Corpus_Cristi
Guest
I think you missed the part where you were compared to a Pharisee.
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
I support the cake lady in this issue.
And there IS a difference between asking every potential customer whether they have engaged in pre-marital sex and what happened here.
The cake lady did not exhaustingly ask every potential customer for their sexual history. In this instance, she asked a simple question out of curiosity.
Whe she got the answer to the question, she realized she could not in good conscience (and according to her Christian beliefs) support this couple’s relationship. Baking a cake for this would have been seen as a tacit approval of their lifestyle.
I do agree in one sense with Orogeny-----way too much moral relativism here.
Good thread.
Enjoyed it.
And there IS a difference between asking every potential customer whether they have engaged in pre-marital sex and what happened here.
The cake lady did not exhaustingly ask every potential customer for their sexual history. In this instance, she asked a simple question out of curiosity.
Whe she got the answer to the question, she realized she could not in good conscience (and according to her Christian beliefs) support this couple’s relationship. Baking a cake for this would have been seen as a tacit approval of their lifestyle.
I do agree in one sense with Orogeny-----way too much moral relativism here.
Good thread.
Enjoyed it.
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ivebeenshown
Guest
Exactly, not to mention she just asked if the lady was a sister, she didn’t ask if they were ‘partners’. THEY chose to divulge that information.
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John21652
Guest
The Baker has demonstrated that even toleration must have its limits. If it didn’t, then there would be no shared morality within a society and society would soon crumble. That shared morality is the glue that holds society together and it is good and proper that someone has stood up for it.
Too many people are carried away with the issue of non-discrimination. It is proper and right to discriminate against those things which are morally wrong and against those people who do moral wrongs. The state does it when it incarcerates certain people. In the name of “non-discrimination” people are now tolerating that which should never be tolerated.
Too many people are carried away with the issue of non-discrimination. It is proper and right to discriminate against those things which are morally wrong and against those people who do moral wrongs. The state does it when it incarcerates certain people. In the name of “non-discrimination” people are now tolerating that which should never be tolerated.
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SwissGuard25
Guest
I’ll tryNo. You don’t get this. Use your critical thinking tools with which God bestowed you.
So what your saying is that if it wasn’t for a Gay wedding it would be okay? It’s still for Gays but it’s just not for their wedding. Never do I as a catholic support Gay marriages, but I do support the word of Jesus Christ our God. Jesus teaches to Love thy Neighbor, and to treat him as your equal. After all let he without sin cast the first stone.
As I said we should treat others, Gay or not, as equals for we ourselves aren’t perfect and have no right to treat or judge others who are different.
What part of Cake don’t you understand?What part of wedding cake do you not understand?
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SwissGuard25
Guest
At 13 years old I am pretty sure Jesus teaches to treat others equal.
Wait let me try and reach your point.
Oh I get it by giving gay people a cake homo sexuality will spread and spread and spread until everyone is Gay!
I get you point.
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