Well, from my personal experience of many churches over the years, I have yet to see two masses exactly alike. Variances happen as we are all human. The variances (local, regional, etc…) actually enhance the worldwide church and not detract from it.“Hardly an abuse”? The sacredness of the Holy Mass demands absolute adherence to the rubrics. They are not guidelines. Any deviation is abuse and an offense against God and His Church. The proclamation of the Gospel is not a joke and it is reserved to an ordained minister of the Holy Catholic Church alone.
And there stands the abuse. No priest has the right to change the Mass. There are some parts that can’t be made all inclusive.Well, from my personal experience of many churches over the years, I have yet to see two masses exactly alike. Variances happen as we are all human. The variances (local, regional, etc…) actually enhance the worldwide church and not detract from it.
There is a difference between legitimate options and variations allowed by the rubrics and liturgical abuse.Well, from my personal experience of many churches over the years, I have yet to see two masses exactly alike. Variances happen as we are all human. The variances (local, regional, etc…) actually enhance the worldwide church and not detract from it.
The Bishop **DID NOT ** reinstate the Priest. He merely said that the Priest could return AFTER counselling.Some see the Mass with flippancy.
Every part of the Mass has to be observed with discipline and reverence.
From all the data gathered here IMO, the bishop caved in by reistating this maverick.
The priest is going on a retraining retreat at St Vincent’s in Latrobe. After this time of reflection he will then be able to be reinstated if the Bishop thinks he is ready to be a caretaker of a parish.The Bishop **DID NOT **reinstate the Priest. He merely said that the Priest could return AFTER counselling.
No - it doesn’t have any thing to do with what I quoted, but it does have everything to do with what you’ve posted on this thread (and others). To quote Francesco920:My precieved “heterodoxy” has nothing to do with this debate. Regardless of what the true story is, “liturgical abuse” is not the reason he was removed. It appears the hiring practices were an issue, but those are actions outside the liturgy.
Is this your opinion? It is contrary to everything that has been written about the tentative plans of his visit.Pope Benedict XVI is coming to America and his main objective is to have the American Catholic Church “get in line” with the disciplines of the liturgy.
Giving communion to a woman “priest” is not a joke. Sacrilege against the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ is not a joke. The Bishop was eminently justified in removing this priest.“Father Martin’s received advice and counsel on numerous occasions from the archdiocese, and he has repeatedly violated church teaching,” Caine said. His major offense was not complying with hiring and screening policies, but he also allowed dogs in the sanctuary and did not show up for a baptism, Caine said.
This is pretty petty. Hiring and screening policies are not during the Liturgy. I know many priests who have let animals run in the church and no harm has been done (usually accidentally got loose and then moved back). And not showing up for a Baptism is not an abuse but a scheduling conflict.
What a joke.
I have been to Catholic weddings where a Protestant minister is allowed to do nothing more than read an Old Testament scripture, otherwise ignored. Then, guess what? The bride may participate in the Eucharist but neither the groom, the minister or any other non-Catholic is allowed to receive. Sheer short-sighted stupidity that makes Catholicism look insensitive, bigoted and arrogant.
At Protestant churches I have witnessed a true sharing in weddings by both ministers and guest priests (those willing to co-officiate). If communion is part of the ceremony, which it usually is not in an interfaith ceremony, everyone is invited to receive.
Which way do you think Christ would prefer? He worked hard at breaking down walls and building bridges.In this instance she can be seen as a non-ordained layperson in the Catholic Church’s view. No different than an EM in status around the alter. This is a reaching across the aisle form of ecumenicism, to unite and not divide over apparent schisms over the past which progress should be made towards to heal.Giving communion to a woman “priest” is not a joke. Sacrilege against the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ is not a joke. The Bishop was eminently justified in removing this priest.
On another thread (need to track it down eventually, it was posted today in Liturgy and Sacraments, maybe the Music thread) it is quoted that there are allowed variations to rubrics due to local differences. The rubrics are a range of grey areas in real life, not a black and white rule where any minor deviance is a “scandal”.No - it doesn’t have any thing to do with what I quoted, but it does have everything to do with what you’ve posted on this thread (and others). To quote Francesco920:
**
A deliberate violation of the rubrics is not a “variation” but an abuse. Any disobedience to the rubrics does not “enhance” anything because it is sinful, and sin only serves to separate us from God. Being human is no excuse for sin, otherwise Our Lord wouldn’t have had to die on the Cross. Likewise, being human is no excuse for liturgical abuse.**
Your repeated disregard for the way things should be done is shameful. While I won’t venture an opinion on your interior state, I do believe that you are her to proclaim a more “open” and loving Church, esp. to show another opinion than those of us more orthodox, or perhaps rule-bound in your view… While admirable, I think that many times you go to far and merely add to the confusion.
Pax tecum.
That sounds awfully protestant to me. A Catholic understanding of unity means a) unity of faith, meaning no heresy, and of love among all the faithful and b) unity with and obedience to the pope and bishops in communion with him.The Church is a global spiritual community broken into local parts. There are both interconnectedness and differences between communities from the local (more than one local parish) to the global variances. Love for one another is what really matters in the end. Spirituality is the link between us, either more traditional or modern., Catholic or non-Catholic (or even non-religious). In the end we all want a more unified humanity, as hard as that will be and imperfect the ideal final goal could be (human weakness).
IMHO she is a non-ordained non-Catholic thus not permitted to help celebrate the HOLY MASS. EM’s are at the very least Catholic.In this instance she can be seen as a non-ordained layperson in the Catholic Church’s view. No different than an EM in status around the alter. This is a reaching across the aisle form of ecumenicism, to unite and not divide over apparent schisms over the past which progress should be made towards to heal.
The building, carpeting, Holy Water founts, when they sit kneel or stand, if they use the bells and other minor issues are sometimes different in parishes or countries.On another thread (need to track it down eventually, it was posted today in Liturgy and Sacraments, maybe the Music thread) it is quoted that there are allowed variations to rubrics due to local differences. The rubrics are a range of grey areas in real life, not a black and white rule where any minor deviance is a “scandal”.
Remember, the official rubrics were first done by basically a human committee long ago (not sure which exact council), they are not the same (even TLM) from what was done back 300ish or so, other councils have modified them.
The Church is a global spiritual community broken into local parts. There are both interconnectedness and differences between communities from the local (more than one local parish) to the global variances. Love for one another is what really matters in the end. Spirituality is the link between us, either more traditional or modern., Catholic or non-Catholic (or even non-religious). In the end we all want a more unified humanity, as hard as that will be and imperfect the ideal final goal could be (human weakness).
I personally am secure in my Catholic faith that events like these would not shake it, as they are pretty minor in the big picture of life.
When the priest allowed the Protestant minister/priest to receive Holy Communion the priest committed a SACRILEGE.IMHO she is a non-ordained non-Catholic thus not permitted to help celebrate the HOLY MASS. EM’s are at the very least Catholic.
The Mass wouldn’t have been invalid (only illicit), but I agree that the situation is extremely horrible. The scandal caused by this and similar situations over the past decades is seen in the fact that many people don’t think this is a big deal or that it is even wrong. They have lost both their sense of the sacred and their sense of sin, unfortunately, and it is liturgical abuses like these that have contributed in great part to this.When the priest allowed the Protestant minister/priest to receive Holy Communion the priest committed a SACRILEGE.
When she was allowed to partake in the Mass wearing vestments it was worse than illicit…it was invalid, IMO.
The rapsheet on that priest has having dogs in the church at Mass is a DESECRATION.
The bishop fired him but (I think I read the bishop reinstated the priest and has put him in rehab or some such). I f that is so (reinstatement) then the bishop “caved” to pressure from outsiders.