Baltimore priest removed for liturgical abuse

[Dauphin]

I can’t speak for the feelings or beliefs of “many Catholics” but I do know that the Church would never agree with Dauphin’s declamation of Protestants as heretical. The Church is aware (and teaches) that while Protestants are in need of the fullness of truth, the faith that they will find in the Catholic Church, they are usually centuries removed from any guilt for heretical beliefs.

In other words, as individuals, they did not choose to leave the Catholic Church for reasons of heresy. Certainly the Catholic teaching about the reception of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is very clear-cut. It requires long preparation before any Catholic is allowed to receive Holy Communion and purposes of “fellowship” would never justify the reception of Holy Communion by any and all who happen to be inside a Catholic Church

I agree that not all protestants are guilty of formal heresy (obstinate denial of truth), but the Church certainly holds that they are guilty of material heresy (unknowningly believing heresy). In engaging in practices and holding beliefs that are heretical in nature, they are - by definition - engaging in material heresy.

This is the unchanging view of the church. It’s curious that so many Catholics believe that Vatican II reversed this teaching…

 

[Dauphin]

What Christians should do it respect other Christians and work toward unity. Such unity would still permit differences but emphasize our oneness in Christ.

No true unity can permit protestant heresy. That is the definition of false ecumenism - to “tolerate” mistruth and to veil our differences in ambiguous terms. It’s a deception that you would gladly engage in, and it would bring many souls to ruin. (or do protestants not believe in the soul anymore?)

In many communities, such as mine, there has developed a warm feeling between Catholics and most Protestants, and they worship and work together at times. This must make Christ very happy. It’s silly to let different opinions on doctrine and such serve to divide us in the world today.

That’s fantastic! Warm feelings and friendships between Catholics and protestants is an excellent thing, and I’m sure it pleases Christ. We can certainly do good works together, but we are not saved by works.

No church has all the truth (sorry if that sounds like heresy).

Yep. That’s heresy. When Christ founded His church upon Peter, that church contained the entire truth. God doesn’t do things imperfectly. He promised that that one church would not fall into error, and it hasn’t.

God is too big to be contained in any one creed or theology.

Provide one source that says the Catholic church pretends to completely understand the nature of God. You won’t be able to. God’s greatness is unknowable, but the fullness of truth that He can possibly reveal is present in the Catholic Church.

 

[peary]

**Maybe the bishop could assign the priest at a retreat center to spend the rest of his life doing retreats for little old ladies. Talk about purgatory on earth… **

 

[Nohome]

**Maybe the bishop could assign the priest at a retreat center to spend the rest of his life doing retreats for little old ladies. Talk about purgatory on earth… **

Careful, every one of those old ladies are someone’s mother!

Nohome

 

[rebusrms]

cruel and unusual punishment

 

[catharina]

rebusrms, Nohome, peary, hmmmmm … about the old ladies?

The current crop includes those women who lived through at least one world war and for some, two world wars. They lived through the Depression, the major conflicts in Korea and Viet Nam and now in the gulf. They’ve lost spouses and children and some have lost grandchildren.

They survived a cultural revolution that derided their values and their goals. They lived through massive changes in the Church and remained faithful and quite unperturbed. If the group is a group of typical little old ladies who are RC, each has much to teach if anyone asked: “What has your life taught you.” Maybe the priest could be sent to ask that question of dozens, hundreds, thousands of old ladies until he is old and wiser and finally dead. Each could answer him for an hour’s worth of memories, then he could move on to the next. He might grow up.

I’ll turn 62 this week. I’m peacefully galloping toward old ladyhood.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Careful, every one of those old ladies are someone’s mother!

Nohome

Last Rites probably would be administered more likely among the aged. Would you trust that priest to follow the set rules to apply the Last Rites? At eternity’s door yet?

 

[peary]

“Father Martin’s received advice and counsel on numerous occasions from the archdiocese, and he has repeatedly violated church teaching,” Caine said. His major offense was not complying with hiring and screening policies, but he also allowed dogs in the sanctuary and did not show up for a baptism, Caine said.

This is pretty petty. Hiring and screening policies are not during the Liturgy. I know many priests who have let animals run in the church and no harm has been done (usually accidentally got loose and then moved back). And not showing up for a Baptism is not an abuse but a scheduling conflict.

What a joke.

You don’t “GET IT”. The people were not the ones who did not show up for the Baptism - THE PRIEST didn’t! And it wasn’t over a scheduling conflict, either. There is a very good article in the H&P Review this month regarding problems of priestly narcissism which many times permeates our parish liturgies. The article draws attention to the fact that excessive individualism has spilled over into the Catholic clergy. When that happens, conflict and trouble ensues which needs to be addressed with, in some unfortunate cases, heavy-handedness for the good of the community.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

You don’t “GET IT”. The people were not the ones who did not show up for the Baptism - THE PRIEST didn’t! And it wasn’t over a scheduling conflict, either. There is a very good article in the H&P Review this month regarding problems of priestly narcissism which many times permeates our parish liturgies. The article draws attention to the fact that excessive individualism has spilled over into the Catholic clergy. When that happens, conflict and trouble ensues which needs to be addressed with, in some unfortunate cases, heavy-handedness for the good of the community.

If there were repeated liturgical abuses (and there were) and a “no show” for a baptism; and allowing a dog(s) in the Sanctuary the bishop should have dealt with this without gloves.

It doesn’t take the walls to come caving in to realize there is a “maverick among us.”

IMO, I don’t think this “priest” will ever be a conformist…I think he has a troubled mind and maybe his soul might be affected as a result. It happens. But that is jusy My Opinion.

 

[rebusrms]

There is a very good article in the H&P Review

could you send a link to the article?

 

[Roy5]

Lots of interesting postings. Among my favorite is that by Tiggeriffic. Did I spell that right?

Unless the stiffnecks in the Catholic church loosen up, they become simply stumbling blocks in the way of the working of the Holy Spirit. They are like the Pharisees who were always accusing Jesus of 'breaking the law'. Christianity's main foundation is love, and after that understanding and acceptance. Vatican II tried to turn Catholicism from a narrow religion with all sorts of petty rules and regulations into a joyful faith centered in love. Too many pious, judgmental Catholics keep resisting this fundamental change. Well-intentioned? Yes. They even believe they are saving the church. In truth they are the church's enemies from within.

 Sorry if thia sounds harsh. But maybe that's the only language such self-certain Catholics understand.

 

[anamchara]

Lots of interesting postings. Among my favorite is that by Tiggeriffic. Did I spell that right?

 

[peary]

Last Rites probably would be administered more likely among the aged. Would you trust that priest to follow the set rules to apply the Last Rites? At eternity’s door yet?

Would he not show up for Last Rites too?

 

[francesco920]

 

[Dauphin]

Unless the stiffnecks in the Catholic church loosen up, they become simply stumbling blocks in the way of the working of the Holy Spirit.

‘Loosen up’? When did the apostles tell us to ‘loosen up’ in the defense of our faith? Many of them gave their lives for the faith you would so easily ‘loosen’.

They are like the Pharisees who were always accusing Jesus of ‘breaking the law’.

The most disgusting thing about this comment is that you probably think that Jesus *did *break the law. You probably have some imbecilic notion of Christ coming along like some hippy to tear down authority and establish a ‘loose’ religion. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Christ broke none of the law because He IS the law; the eternal Torah. The rules Christ gave us for living a Christian life were as tough as they get. He showed us the perfect example of a Christian life, and as he taught us on the cross: it isn’t easy.

Christianity’s main foundation is love, and after that understanding and acceptance.

Christianity’s foundation is Christ and Christ is the eternal Word: the TRUTH. The Catholic Church owes its highest allegiance to His truth. The notion of overlooking heresy just so we can ‘get along’ with others is repugnant to the very core of the Christian faith.

Vatican II tried to turn Catholicism from a narrow religion with all sorts of petty rules and regulations into a joyful faith centered in love.

Clearly, you know practically nothing about Vatican II. Let me help:

The Second Vatican Council did not change a single article of the Catholic faith. The faith the Church held before the council is the same faith it holds today. If a Catholic denies that, they dissolve the unity of the church, and the Christian faith comes to nothing.

The rules and regulations of the Church are there to help us live Christian lives. Without them, faith becomes the opiate it is for so many protestants. Christianity is not meant to be an easy religion. Every Christian is called to conform themselves to the rules the church sets down under the authority Christ gave her: the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

As much as you may believe it, your faith isn’t centered in love. Your faith in instead centered in a lie that says the truth isn’t relevant when compared to material needs; that ‘feeling good’ is more important that believing and living the truth. It’s despicable deception, and you’ll have your punishment for spreading that venomous lie.

Too many pious, judgmental Catholics keep resisting this fundamental change.

Enlighten me: what is this fundamental change? Perhaps you’d like to produce a document from the Second Vatican Council that demonstrates it?

Well-intentioned? Yes. They even believe they are saving the church. In truth they are the church’s enemies from within.

The enemies of the church are the enemies of truth; they would have us hide or change our faith and veil our differences with others in ambiguous terms. You’re one of them.

Sorry if thia sounds harsh. But maybe that’s the only language such self-certain Catholics understand.

I understand it all too well as the language of Satan; the kind of language that was unleashed on Holy Mother Church after the Second Vatican Council. Ultimately, though, that language will fade and truth will win out.

 

[peary]

Lots of interesting postings. Among my favorite is that by Tiggeriffic. Did I spell that right?

Unless the stiffnecks in the Catholic church loosen up, they become simply stumbling blocks in the way of the working of the Holy Spirit. They are like the Pharisees who were always accusing Jesus of 'breaking the law'. Christianity's main foundation is love, and after that understanding and acceptance. Vatican II tried to turn Catholicism from a narrow religion with all sorts of petty rules and regulations into a joyful faith centered in love. Too many pious, judgmental Catholics keep resisting this fundamental change. Well-intentioned? Yes. They even believe they are saving the church. In truth they are the church's enemies from within.

 Sorry if thia sounds harsh. But maybe that's the only language such self-certain Catholics understand.

Maybe the perception is just all in your head.

 

[anamchara]

anamchara;3008781:

With all due respect I think you are missing the point. I don’t think anybody here has made personal attacks against the priest and he probably is a great guy, but the fact is that it is a very good thing when a bishop shows that he cares for the liturgical rubrics. If more bishops would take actions like these, then there would be fewer abuses. Allowing dogs to roam in the sanctuary and having an episcopalian priestess proclaim the Gospel are not small and insignificant abuses.

I’m not missing any point. And I never said there were personal attacks toward the priest. What I actually said was this:

The thing that brothers me the most though is all the posters who came in here with big smilies and thumbs up. Even if I agreed that this dear priest needed to take a sabbatical, I would be so quick to start being happy about it and start throwing around “it’s about time” comments.

The fact that there are abuses and this priest was misguided is beside the point. It’s about how we react to the way it was handled. I feel terrible for the priest and for the Bishop that had to do this. I never saw any post that even resembled a sign of sympathy for the priest or anyone involved. Now you can justify the reponses all you want but I find the lack of compassion distastful.

Three parishes are very deeply hurt and a community. Regardless of how strong you feel about the abuses it doesn’t make that reality go away. And I’m sure the Bishop feels horrible as well.

Btw, I don’t think they are called Priestess. The women felt very bad about what happen.

 

[catharina]

francesco920;3009305:

I’m not missing any point. And I never said there were personal attacks toward the priest. What I actually said was this:

The fact that there are abuses and this priest was misguided is beside the point. It’s about how we react to the way it was handled. I feel terrible for the priest and for the Bishop that had to do this. I never saw any post that even resembled a sign of sympathy for the priest or anyone involved. Now you can justify the reponses all you want but I find the lack of compassion distastful.

Three parishes are very deeply hurt and a community. Regardless of how strong you feel about the abuses it doesn’t make that reality go away. And I’m sure the Bishop feels horrible as well.

Btw, I don’t think they are called Priestess. The women felt very bad about what happen.

I appreciate the fact that you choose to quote St. Vincent de Paul in your signature line:

"I have never succeeded when I have spoken with the faintest suspicion of hardness. One must be ever on one’s guard not to embitter the heart, if one wishes to move the mind.

~St. Vincent de Paul"

One of St VdP’s greatest works was restoring the priesthood to holiness and conformity in both its preparation and practice. I feel rather certain that St. VdP would approve of the archbishop’s decisions and actions in regard to the offending priest - because Father Martin is surely an offending priest. Feeling joy at this state of affairs is likely beyond the limits of any poster; still one can and does feel tremendous relief that the priest who has ignored warnings and wisdom is at last facing consequences.

We are responsible for safeguarding out faith - and that’s all of us wthin the Church. Yes, I feel very sorry for the bishop who was called upon to issue disciplinary measures but I’m very grateful he did so - since the measures were necessary. As for the priest, we can’t know his personal culpability. Maybe he’s in the throes of early Alzheimer’s? However, he had to be stopped and the bishop took action to do so. As for the distressed parishoners? It sounds as if many fell into the the cult of personality regarding the priest. Priests are not allowed to re-invent the Mass to meet their own intellectual/emotional needs.

 

[anamchara]

St. VdP would approve of the archbishop’s decisions and actions in regard to the offending priest - because Father Martin is surely an offending priest.

you miss my point, I’ll try again. It does not matter if we agree with the Bishop. Of course the Bishop was right. However, there still should be some empathy for the priest. He isn’t a criminal for heavens sake. The priest had good intentions although misguided. In other words his heart was in the right place just took wrong actions.

I take it from your post that you have no sympathy at all for the community and this priest because they sort of deserved what they had coming?

I’m sure St. Vincent would have felt horrible about having to take such a measure, right as it might have been.

Just my opinion, whatever makes you happy and sleep at night I guess.

 

[catharina]

… and you miss my point. The priest offended. Is he personally culpable for the guilt of that offense? I have no idea and neither do you - although you imagine that he acted in good conscience. I have no idea if he did or didn’t act in good conscience. I’m certain though that he’s created great conflict for his bishop and for all affected parishoners. Since he could not stop of his own accord - for whatever reason - he had to be stopped. Was he acting out of enhanced though misguided charity or out of some egomaniacal needs? I’ve no idea. I do know that hierarchy exists within the Church to correct error among other things. The bishop acted properly. The priest? Now there is an opportunity for him to learn to act properly. The community and parishes? Sounds like those are now mission territory and yes, that’s a shame.