Baptism for the dead - Catholics believed it ?

[dianaiad]

“Why do we pray for the dead?”

Thank you.

that third link was especially helpful.

So basically, what Catholics do when they pray for those who have died (and have had the ‘first judgment’ which destines them, eventually, for heaven) is to somehow shorten their stay in purgatory by doing…something…that helps them get their souls in order, or see the light, or whatever it is they need to do to make it all the way out of purgatory and into the fullness of God’s presence, or heaven.

The above awkward language is my confusion, not any attempt to be sarcastic or look ignorant; I AM ignorant, and sincerely trying to understand this.

This begs a question. What of those who don’t have anybody here to pray for them?

 

[dianaiad]

The Marcionites and Cerinthians held many beliefs that were not orthodox. Most very much in opposition to each other.

When are the mormons going to “restore” these?

You might want to actually investigate the beliefs of these two groups before hitching up to them. They were declared heretical for good reason. Why you would think these two groups are an example of apostolic teaching is beyond me.

Rebecca, the fact that they are right about one thing does not make them right about everything else—and vice versa.

The fact is, we DID 'restore these." We baptize on behalf of the dead. They got that part right.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you.

that third link was especially helpful.

So basically, what Catholics do when they pray for those who have died (and have had the ‘first judgment’ which destines them, eventually, for heaven) is to somehow shorten their stay in purgatory by doing…something…that helps them get their souls in order, or see the light, or whatever it is they need to do to make it all the way out of purgatory and into the fullness of God’s presence, or heaven.

Purgatory is not a place, it is a state. The souls are not “doing” anything. God is purifying them.

This begs a question. What of those who don’t have anybody here to pray for them?

We do, quite often, pray for all the dead. All Souls Day is particularly for this purpose.

To Mormon interest in particular, being here in SLC, we prayed for the soul of your Pres. Hinckley at Mass, the Sunday after his funeral.

ANGEL:

Softly and gently, dearly-ransom’d soul, In my most loving arms I now enfold thee, And, o’er the penal waters, as they roll, I poise thee, and I lower thee, and hold thee.
And carefully I dip thee in the lake, And thou, without a sob or a resistance, Dost through the flood thy rapid passage take, Sinking deep, deeper, into the dim distance. {370}
Angels, to whom the willing task is given, Shall tend, and nurse, and lull thee, as thou liest; And masses on the earth, and prayers in heaven, Shall aid thee at the Throne of the Most Highest.
Farewell, but not for ever! brother dear, Be brave and patient on thy bed of sorrow; Swiftly shall pass thy night of trial here, And I will come and wake thee on the morrow.

From The Dream of Gerontius

It might help to know that we believe that God exists outside of space and time. And so, when speaking of purgatory, “time” is as God knows it. Some have theorized the “time” in purgatory experienced by the soul as instantaneous. But what that “time” is to us, we do not know.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, the fact that they are right about one thing does not make them right about everything else—and vice versa.

The fact is, we DID 'restore these." We baptize on behalf of the dead. They got that part right.

I say, no you didn’t.

 

[Religio71]

Thank you.

that third link was especially helpful.

So basically, what Catholics do when they pray for those who have died (and have had the ‘first judgment’ which destines them, eventually, for heaven) is to somehow shorten their stay in purgatory by doing…something…that helps them get their souls in order, or see the light, or whatever it is they need to do to make it all the way out of purgatory and into the fullness of God’s presence, or heaven.

The above awkward language is my confusion, not any attempt to be sarcastic or look ignorant; I AM ignorant, and sincerely trying to understand this.

This begs a question. What of those who don’t have anybody here to pray for them?

Yes, their “time” in Purgatory is shortened by prayer and Masses for the dead. Note that this “time” terminology is our limited human understanding, since for Catholics, Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are outside of time and space. As Rebecca said, the souls in Purgatory are not “doing” anything. They are being purified by God so that they may be welcomed into His eternal presence in Heaven.

We pray generally for all souls in Purgatory on many occasions, as Rebecca also noted. People also can say general prayers for souls in Purgatory as well if they desire. However, even if someone did not pray at all for certain souls in Purgatory, that wouldn’t mean anything, since they are still on their way to Heaven. Even if it takes “longer” to be purified, that is irrelevant, since all souls in Purgatory have their eternal reward decided already, everyone in Purgatory goes to Heaven.

 

[Religio71]

There is an interesting newspaper article about baptism for the dead, centuries of widespread ancient Christian practice of baptism for the dead, the synods which eventually condemned the practice, the reasons of Church politics which led to that condemnation, and today’s concern of the Roman Catholic Church (specifically in Ireland) about Mormon use of Catholic parish records in connection with Mormon baptism for the dead, in the Northern Ireland newspaper Belfast Telegraph. Apparently the author, Eamonn McCann, is Catholic or at least attended Catholic schools. The article is dated August 28, 2008 and I believe that theURL is:

belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/eamon-mccann/eamonn-mccann-what-if-mormons-are-right-and-catholics-and-protestants-wrong-13955402.html

Here is some of what Mr. McCann says:

“The Mormons didn’t invent baptism of the dead. The practice has a significant history within mainstream Christianity. The decision to order its abandonment was taken only after heated debate, and was a close-run thing.”
* * * *

“Let’s look at the facts as understood by the early followers of Christ. For more than 300 years after the Crucifixion, baptism of the dead was widely accepted, its biblical basis located in 1 Corinthians 15, 29: “Otherwise, what shall they do who are baptised for the dead if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptised for them.” In other words, a deceased person could be baptised by proxy: otherwise, how could such a person be included in the Resurrection? A good question.”

"The radical Cerinthians and the Marcionites were especially energetic baptisers of the dead. It was to wrong-foot these sects, seen as competitors with the official Church at a time when it was consolidating its position as the State religion of the Roman Empire, that the Synods of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) voted, after bitter debate, to condemn the practice. "

Mr. McCann, in a humorous vein, makes it clear that he is not the least bit concerned about Mormon baptism for the dead, and does not think others should be either. Lastly, his remark about “mumbo-jumbo Mormons might mutter over Catholic cadavers” is just a joke. The subject is Mormon baptism for the dead, not baptism of the dead, and no dead bodies are involved.

Murdock

Interestingly, McCann says nothing about evidences for the practice among “mainstream Christianity”, yet he says that it was practiced among mainstream Christians. Since McCann is a Catholic, we assume that by mainstream Christians, he means Catholics (or, if we’re being academic, the unified Catholic-Orthodox Church), since we are looking at this from the Catholic viewpoint (i.e., his viewpoint). So, why does he cite heretical groups, such as the Marcionites, as evidence of this practice? They were not mainstream, since they rejected the Old Testament, the Hebrew God, said that Paul was the chief apostle, etc. So, we will wait for this evidence of mainstream Christians practicing baptism for the dead anciently.

 

[dianaiad]

Purgatory is not a place, it is a state. The souls are not “doing” anything. God is purifying them.

OK…correction noted…I’m not quite certain how that changes my question…

We do, quite often, pray for all the dead. All Souls Day is particularly for this purpose.

To Mormon interest in particular, being here in SLC, we prayed for the soul of your Pres. Hinckley at Mass, the Sunday after his funeral.

That was very nice of you. Raises a question: are there any souls you would NOT pray for?

From The Dream of Gerontius

It might help to know that we believe that God exists outside of space and time. And so, when speaking of purgatory, “time” is as God knows it. Some have theorized the “time” in purgatory experienced by the soul as instantaneous. But what that “time” is to us, we do not know.

Fair enough.

 

[dianaiad]

Interestingly, McCann says nothing about evidences for the practice among “mainstream Christianity”, yet he says that it was practiced among mainstream Christians. Since McCann is a Catholic, we assume that by mainstream Christians, he means Catholics (or, if we’re being academic, the unified Catholic-Orthodox Church), since we are looking at this from the Catholic viewpoint (i.e., his viewpoint). So, why does he cite heretical groups, such as the Marcionites, as evidence of this practice? They were not mainstream, since they rejected the Old Testament, the Hebrew God, said that Paul was the chief apostle, etc. So, we will wait for this evidence of mainstream Christians practicing baptism for the dead anciently.

Yes. I would love to see that. Really, I’d LOVE it!!!

 

[dianaiad]

I say, no you didn’t.

Well, of course. If you said “yeah, you’re right about that”, you’d still be LDS.

 

[why_me]

Baptism for the dead:

youtube.com/watch?v=7om1Hs0qs54

It gives some explanation from the lds church and others. It seems that some catholics here have ‘holy envy’.

 

[why_me]

Purgatory is not a place, it is a state. The souls are not “doing” anything. God is purifying them.

We do, quite often, pray for all the dead. All Souls Day is particularly for this purpose.

And let us not forget Saint Gertrude, the Great:

Eternal Father, I offer thee the most precious blood of the Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family, Amen.

The lord told Saint Gertrude that saying this prayer would release a thousand souls from purgatory each time it is said.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That was very nice of you. Raises a question: are there any souls you would NOT pray for?

Me, or the general “you”?

 

[dianaiad]

Me, or the general “you”?

Hmnn. Good question.

Both, I guess.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hmnn. Good question.

Both, I guess.

** VISIT TO GROUND ZERO**
*** PRAYER OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI***
Ground Zero, New York
Sunday, 20 April 2008

O God of love, compassion, and healing,
look on us, people of many different faiths and traditions,
who gather today at this site,
the scene of incredible violence and pain.
We ask you in your goodness
to give eternal light and peace
to all who died here—
the heroic first-responders:
our fire fighters, police officers,
emergency service workers, and Port Authority personnel,
along with all the innocent men and women
who were victims of this tragedy
simply because their work or service
brought them here on September 11, 2001.
We ask you, in your compassion
to bring healing to those
who, because of their presence here that day,
suffer from injuries and illness.
Heal, too, the pain of still-grieving families
and all who lost loved ones in this tragedy.
Give them strength to continue their lives with courage and hope.
We are mindful as well
of those who suffered death, injury, and loss
on the same day at the Pentagon and in Shanksville, Pennsylvania.
Our hearts are one with theirs
as our prayer embraces their pain and suffering.
God of peace, bring your peace to our violent world:
peace in the hearts of all men and women
and peace among the nations of the earth.
Turn to your way of love
those whose hearts and minds
are consumed with hatred.
God of understanding,
overwhelmed by the magnitude of this tragedy,
we seek your light and guidance
as we confront such terrible events.
Grant that those whose lives were spared
may live so that the lives lost here
may not have been lost in vain.
Comfort and console us,
strengthen us in hope,
and give us the wisdom and courage
to work tirelessly for a world
where true peace and love reign
among nations and in the hearts of all.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I’m not familiar with these writings. If you wouldn’t mind pointing me to where I might find them, my lazy self would truly appreciate it!

I have been thinking that it is odd that Catholics would be so very adamant against this idea of proxy baptism, when they, among all other Christians, believe that praying to the saints and to Mary for intercession on their behalf is efficacious.

Hi dianaiad,

Wow. You go to bed, go to work, and whoa, look what happens? I think someone else has already referenced you to the section of St. Francis’ writing to which I referred. It seemed to have been pulled from the internet somewhere. It comes from a collection of his apologetics tracts written to the Calvinists in Geneva which has been published most recently under the title, The Catholic Controversy, by TAN Publishers in 1989. In this edition, the relevant material is found on page 368.

As for for your perception that there is Catholic adamance against proxy baptism for the dead by LDS, if correct, it would strike me as odd also. St. Francis used I Cor. 15:29 to insist that his interpretation, which is compatible with purgatory was favorable to no interpretation at all. I have no quarrels with how LDS have interpreted the verse for themselves. Having no tradition of performing acts of penance on behalf of the Church Suffering, as the poor souls in purgatory are sometimes remembered, the LDS interpretation is perfectly natural. It doesn’t prove the LDS Church to be true, but I think, unlike the Calvinists of Geneva, Catholics have to acknowledge that Mormons can demonstrate a plausible answer to St. Francis de Sales’ objections about I Cor. 15:29 which he directed to the Reformers. He would have needed to take another approach with the Latter-day Saints in regard to their understanding of that passage.

I am adamantly opposed to the practice as a Catholic. It would be irreconcilable to Catholic Tradition for our priests or lay people to begin to petition our bishops to offer this service of proxy baptism in water for those who were unbaptized in this life. There are already other forms of non-aquatic baptism which permits us to have hope for those who have died without baptism in water. By extension, since it would be contrary to the Catholic faith for Catholics to directly perform or participate in such unauthorized baptisms as those done by Mormons, it is problematic within the Catholic faith to indirectly perform or participate with these unauthorized baptisms. By sharing Catholic parish records for the express purpose of allowing Mormons to perform these religious services, there is a possible culpability on the part of the indirect participant for having lent aid to actions that are contrary to the true faith as we understand it. If there was doubt about the reason for the sharing of records, this culpability would be by degrees diminished.

I am not a moral theologian of course. I am just a truck driver who would have gotten back earlier had not my lift gate burnt out a motor today. I submit as always, any of my relatively doubtful personal opinions to the judgment of the Holy Catholic Church. But I am pretty sure the reason I give above, or a variation upon it explains why the Vatican directed parishes not to participate with Mormons in sharing our records. I think you are correct in seeing a correlation between purgatory and baptisms for the dead. I suspect any perceived adamance against the practice on your part is probably false. There is merely adamant unwillingness to participate in your practice on our part. You can do it. Catholics should not participate, and if asked, must kindly refuse.

I started a thread May of 2008 if you are interested in a discussion about recent policy directives of the Catholic Church in relation to baptism for the dead. To some Mormons, this is perceived as “official adamance” on the part of the Catholic Church. I suggest this is a misunderstanding of our position: mormonapologetics.org/topic/35476-regarding-the-vatican-decision-on-parish-records/

Regards, Rory

 

[dianaiad]

Hi dianaiad,

Wow. You go to bed, go to work, and whoa, look what happens? I think someone else has already referenced you to the section of St. Francis’ writing to which I referred. It seemed to have been pulled from the internet somewhere. It comes from a collection of his apologetics tracts written to the Calvinists in Geneva which has been published most recently under the title, The Catholic Controversy, by TAN Publishers in 1989. In this edition, the relevant material is found on page 368.

As for for your perception that there is Catholic adamance against proxy baptism for the dead by LDS, if correct, it would strike me as odd also. St. Francis used I Cor. 15:29 to insist that his interpretation, which is compatible with purgatory was favorable to no interpretation at all. I have no quarrels with how LDS have interpreted the verse for themselves. Having no tradition of performing acts of penance on behalf of the Church Suffering, as the poor souls in purgatory are sometimes remembered, the LDS interpretation is perfectly natural. It doesn’t prove the LDS Church to be true, but I think, unlike the Calvinists of Geneva, Catholics have to acknowledge that Mormons can demonstrate a plausible answer to St. Francis de Sales’ objections about I Cor. 15:29 which he directed to the Reformers. He would have needed to take another approach with the Latter-day Saints in regard to their understanding of that passage.

I am adamantly opposed to the practice as a Catholic. It would be irreconcilable to Catholic Tradition for our priests or lay people to begin to petition our bishops to offer this service of proxy baptism in water for those who were unbaptized in this life. There are already other forms of non-aquatic baptism which permits us to have hope for those who have died without baptism in water. By extension, since it would be contrary to the Catholic faith for Catholics to directly perform or participate in such unauthorized baptisms as those done by Mormons, it is problematic within the Catholic faith to indirectly perform or participate with these unauthorized baptisms. By sharing Catholic parish records for the express purpose of allowing Mormons to perform these religious services, there is a possible culpability on the part of the indirect participant for having lent aid to actions that are contrary to the true faith as we understand it. If there was doubt about the reason for the sharing of records, this culpability would be by degrees diminished.

I am not a moral theologian of course. I am just a truck driver who would have gotten back earlier had not my lift gate burnt out a motor today. I submit as always, any of my relatively doubtful personal opinions to the judgment of the Holy Catholic Church. But I am pretty sure the reason I give above, or a variation upon it explains why the Vatican directed parishes not to participate with Mormons in sharing our records. I think you are correct in seeing a correlation between purgatory and baptisms for the dead. I suspect any perceived adamance against the practice on your part is probably false. There is merely adamant unwillingness to participate in your practice on our part. You can do it. Catholics should not participate, and if asked, must kindly refuse.

I started a thread May of 2008 if you are interested in a discussion about recent policy directives of the Catholic Church in relation to baptism for the dead. To some Mormons, this is perceived as “official adamance” on the part of the Catholic Church. I suggest this is a misunderstanding of our position: mormonapologetics.org/topic/35476-regarding-the-vatican-decision-on-parish-records/

Regards, Rory

The adamant opposition I see isn’t so much from the church body as a whole as it is from individual posters with whom I have come in contact; these people came at me with the verbal equivalent of swords and cries of 'havoc!!!"

…and frankly, I don’t have a problem with the Catholics refusing to hand over records to people whose only purpose is to get the names into the queue for proxy work. I do have a problem when those records are being requested by people who are honestly searching out family history…and are refused access simply because they are LDS.

Thank you for the link, by the way.

 

[dianaiad]

** VISIT TO GROUND ZERO**
*** PRAYER OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI***
Ground Zero, New York
Sunday, 20 April 2008

<snip very lovely poem/prayer

I truly appreciate the prayer, and the sentiment behind it.

I am left a little bemused, however. You, as a Catholic, consider it perfectly acceptable to pray for the souls of all who die, whether they are Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Protestant or whatever…and you have also stated, personally, that those prayers do not need the permission of the souls for whom you are praying to be efficacious. They actually do something, those prayers, and masses, and all.

Now me, personally, I appreciate very deeply the faith and the good wishes that go into this idea, very much. Thank you.

One question, though: here you are, doing a very nice thing…(and I do believe it very much IS a nice thing!). However, the people you pray for have no say in the matter. If your prayers are efficacious it is because of your faith, and what you do…and what God may do. There is no mention of whether those you pray for would appreciate it, or want it, or not.

Perhaps that is because you believe that those who have passed on would, OF COURSE, want it. The question of choice simply doesn’t arise. The Jew, the Muslim, all would realize, of course, that they had been incorrect all their lives and thus would welcome those prayers as a man trapped in the Sahara would welcome water. I understand that.

…but given this belief of yours, I can’t help wonder why you (and in this case, Rebecca, I’m talking about you personally as well as ‘you’ many other Catholics who have, over the years, been downright nasty to me over the issue) are so critical of LDS proxy work for those who have died.

You personally have criticized us and mocked us as being evil for doing the work for people like Hitler—yet you pray for him. You criticize us for doing the work for the Jewish victims of the Holocaust…yet you pray for them. You pray for the terrorists who flew the planes as you pray for the people of all religions who died in those planes and the buildings they struck that day. You refuse to allow us access to parish records so that we can offer those who have passed on a choice in whether to accept or reject what we offer, yet you pray for Mormons—and don’t consider our wishes in that in the slightest, nor do you figure that what we might choose to have you do matters; more importantly, you believe that your prayers work on us whether we would want them in this life or not. It is, as lovely an idea as these prayers and the faith behind them are, a compulsion, not an invitation.

Whereas the work we do on behalf of the dead is in itself an invitation, not a compulsion. It must be accepted by those for whom we do the work; their choice, completely. Please do NOT interpret this post as a criticism of your practice in this matter; it certainly is not! While I may not believe that your prayers on behalf of the dead work in quite the same way you do, I never find that faith, honestly and spiritually exercised, is ever completely misplaced.

However, I find the difference in approach both interesting…and ironic.

Diana, hoping that this move to the ‘apologetics’ sub-forum doesn’t get me in trouble…hey, it wasn’t my idea!!!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Diana, the souls in purgatory do not need to accept our prayers. Further, I believe that more than Catholics will be with God, in Heaven, fully and completely, no levels. The souls in purgatory are not taught, and are not required to accept anything. God purifies our souls with His fire.

As a Catholic, Mormons would like to tell me that when I am dead, I have to give up being Catholic and be Mormon. (Except that part where being a mormon apostate, I am doomed to outer darkness.) And even then, I will not be with God fully and completely.

I don’t care that you baptize for the dead. I think it is pointless, a waste of time and resources.

What irks me is baptizing Catholics, who lived as Catholics, complete with all the Catholic beliefs, including the creeds that mormons call “abominations”. Some who died for their faith. They were living witnesses to Jesus Christ and His Church. It is a blatant disregard for this, entirely.

There is not this idea anywhere in the doctrine of purgatory. God purifies all, Catholic and non, and you are not required to denounce your entire life, as though it were wasted and had no point whatsoever.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Rebecca J
What irks me is baptizing Catholics, who lived as Catholics, complete with all the Catholic beliefs, including the creeds that mormons call “abominations”. Some who died for their faith. They were living witnesses to Jesus Christ and His Church. It is a blatant disregard for this, entirely.

Rory
We can’t expect Mormons to think that the saints and martyrs had perfect understanding of the necessity of Joseph Smith and a Restoration. Just as I am saddened when Mormons perceive Catholics to be secretly believing in baptism for the dead because the Church has directed that we not help them with parish records, so I think it is completely wrong headed for us to be insulted that they would wish to baptize our ancestors, or the popes and saints by proxy. They are acting with integrity to their own beliefs. We act with integrity according to ours. Only God can judge the extent to which we are culpable for what we believe.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J
What irks me is baptizing Catholics, who lived as Catholics, complete with all the Catholic beliefs, including the creeds that mormons call “abominations”. Some who died for their faith. They were living witnesses to Jesus Christ and His Church. It is a blatant disregard for this, entirely.

Rory
We can’t expect Mormons to think that the saints and martyrs had perfect understanding of the necessity of Joseph Smith and a Restoration. Just as I am saddened when Mormons perceive Catholics to be secretly believing in baptism for the dead because the Church has directed that we not help them with parish records, so I think it is completely wrong headed for us to be insulted that they would wish to baptize our ancestors, or the popes and saints by proxy. They are acting with integrity to their own beliefs. We act with integrity according to ours. Only God can judge the extent to which we are culpable for what we believe.

Rory, I agree. However, theologically it should at least be reasonable. In all of Christianity, what is the point of a life that is not judged? Oh, you died for your faith and following your conscience, but AFTER you died, you didn’t accept something that didn’t exist while you were alive. No heaven for you. (Heaven, as in the presence of God and heirs to Christ.)