Baptism for the dead - Catholics believed it ?

[dianaiad]

Diana, the souls in purgatory do not need to accept our prayers. Further, I believe that more than Catholics will be with God, in Heaven, fully and completely, no levels. The souls in purgatory are not taught, and are not required to accept anything. God purifies our souls with His fire.

As a Catholic, Mormons would like to tell me that when I am dead, I have to give up being Catholic and be Mormon. (Except that part where being a mormon apostate, I am doomed to outer darkness.) And even then, I will not be with God fully and completely.

No, Rebecca, we don’t. That’s the part about ‘choice.’ You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do. That’s the whole idea behind our proxy work; you can choose to stay Catholic if you want to; you can choose to reject the baptism.

As well, you are also aware, I think, that in LDS thought it takes a little more doing than to stop believing and leaving the church at the ripe old age of sixteen to get yourself consigned to ‘outer darkness.’ We believe that this is reserved only for those who, knowing PRECISELY what they are doing, choose Satan. Pretty much walking up to the Holy Ghost, knowing exactly Who He is, and telling him 'sorry, not interested." In full and complete understanding of the choice one is making. Do you believe that you have done that?

I don’t care that you baptize for the dead. I think it is pointless, a waste of time and resources.

What irks me is baptizing Catholics, who lived as Catholics, complete with all the Catholic beliefs, including the creeds that mormons call “abominations”. Some who died for their faith. They were living witnesses to Jesus Christ and His Church. It is a blatant disregard for this, entirely.

Well, this was my point, put as gently as I could. You have just told me that Catholics said a Mass for Pres. Hinckley (or prayed for him…something like that). Now really, Rebecca; did anybody ask HIM if he wanted that? My point is that your prayers for him, according to you, work whether or not he accedes to the idea, and if there was ever an example of a Mormon who wouldn’t…and didn’t…show any hint of wanting to become a Catholic or agree with the idea of purgatory as Catholics describe it, wouldn’t you think that the president of the CoJCoLDS would be that Mormon?

Yet you did it anyway.

…and you are now “irked” because we do proxy baptisms, which (if you are correct) your dead will never even know about, and if we are correct, they have the absolute right to say 'no thank you" to. As to that, I have to wonder: if we ARE correct, would you rather that we just do as you do, pray for them in the hope that God will make them Mormon whether they wanted to be or not?

There is not this idea anywhere in the doctrine of purgatory. God purifies all, Catholic and non, and you are not required to denounce your entire life, as though it were wasted and had no point whatsoever.

You are, evidently, if you are not Catholic. No choice, no asking, no…‘wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute here…I’ve been a faithful Mormon/Baptist/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Wiccan ALL MY LIFE, and now…pffft? I went to sleep a Lutheran, and all of a sudden I’m in Catholic purgatory, getting prayed for? Say WHAT???"

Sorry about the way I put that, guys, but, I mean…really?

And you are ‘irked’ because Mormons do proxy baptisms on behalf of the dead, and we believe that those same dead have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT and power to tell us where to stuff it?
You are claiming we believe that Catholic dead for whom we have done proxy baptisms suddenly have to 'denounce your entire life, as though it were wasted and had no point whatsoever," and also claiming that there is no teaching in purgatory, and that God does the purifying (and that your prayers, here, have a hand in that).

That is presenting the situation precisely 180 degrees from what it actually is (at least, as it pertains to our beliefs) and you are criticizing us as if we did what you actually do.

And you don’t see it.

I find that…well, I guess intriguing is a good word.

 

[Religio71]

You are, evidently, if you are not Catholic. No choice, no asking, no…‘wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute here…I’ve been a faithful Mormon/Baptist/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Wiccan ALL MY LIFE, and now…pffft? I went to sleep a Lutheran, and all of a sudden I’m in Catholic purgatory, getting prayed for? Say WHAT???"

Sorry about the way I put that, guys, but, I mean…really?

And you are ‘irked’ because Mormons do proxy baptisms on behalf of the dead, and we believe that those same dead have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT and power to tell us where to stuff it?
You are claiming we believe that Catholic dead for whom we have done proxy baptisms suddenly have to 'denounce your entire life, as though it were wasted and had no point whatsoever," and also claiming that there is no teaching in purgatory, and that God does the purifying (and that your prayers, here, have a hand in that).

That is presenting the situation precisely 180 degrees from what it actually is (at least, as it pertains to our beliefs) and you are criticizing us as if we did what you actually do.

And you don’t see it.

I find that…well, I guess intriguing is a good word.

I think the difference Rebecca was trying to point out (or at least the difference that I see) is this: with LDS proxy ordinances, because one did not accept (or know) the Restored Gospel, they are now in Spirit Prison, instead of Paradise. They must accept proxy ordinances to therefore be saved. So they have to “do” this accepting of new beliefs and ordinances in order to attain salvation. In contrast, if a Mormon, Hindu, etc. is in Purgatory, they do not have to do anything to be saved, since they already are. The reason why they went to Purgatory isn’t really that they believed or did anything wrong. If they had no idea about the truth found only in Catholicism, and they followed their own faith, etc., it is possible that they can be saved, by Jesus Christ only (we do not believe that false gods have anything to do with this). So, there is no need to denounce or reform their previous belilefs to get saved, since they already are saved, through Jesus Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think the difference Rebecca was trying to point out (or at least the difference that I see) is this: with LDS proxy ordinances, because one did not accept (or know) the Restored Gospel, they are now in Spirit Prison, instead of Paradise. They must accept proxy ordinances to therefore be saved. So they have to “do” this accepting of new beliefs and ordinances in order to attain salvation. In contrast, if a Mormon, Hindu, etc. is in Purgatory, they do not have to do anything to be saved, since they already are. The reason why they went to Purgatory isn’t really that they believed or did anything wrong. If they had no idea about the truth found only in Catholicism, and they followed their own faith, etc., it is possible that they can be saved, by Jesus Christ only (we do not believe that false gods have anything to do with this). So, there is no need to denounce or reform their previous belilefs to get saved, since they already are saved, through Jesus Christ.

Thank you!

 

[dianaiad]

I think the difference Rebecca was trying to point out (or at least the difference that I see) is this: with LDS proxy ordinances, because one did not accept (or know) the Restored Gospel, they are now in Spirit Prison, instead of Paradise.

And ‘spirit prison’ is different from purgatory, how, exactly?

They must accept proxy ordinances to therefore be saved.

And purgatory is the place where people who aren’t quite ready for heaven go, and God works on them in spite of themselves, and your prayers work on them in spite of themselves…

So they have to “do” this accepting of new beliefs and ordinances in order to attain salvation. In contrast, if a Mormon, Hindu, etc. is in Purgatory, they do not have to do anything to be saved, since they already are.

By the way, so are the folks in 'spirit prison." Remember, in our view, they are all headed for heaven.

The reason why they went to Purgatory isn’t really that they believed or did anything wrong. If they had no idea about the truth found only in Catholicism, and they followed their own faith, etc., it is possible that they can be saved, by Jesus Christ only (we do not believe that false gods have anything to do with this). So, there is no need to denounce or reform their previous belilefs to get saved, since they already are saved, through Jesus Christ.

…but they need to have work done on them, will they, nil they, in order to be made…acceptable? I guess that’s a sort of appropriate word. Acceptable.

Ok they need to be made ‘acceptable’ to God in order to achieve heaven. Now…Rebecca is telling me that people who make it to Purgatory don’t need to change the beliefs that they held in life.

Uhmn…God is going to allow them to continue to believe falsity, and allow them to achieve heaven?

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, Rebecca, we don’t. That’s the part about ‘choice.’ You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do. That’s the whole idea behind our proxy work; you can choose to stay Catholic if you want to; you can choose to reject the baptism.

I thought we were talking about heaven, and who is there, and how they get there. Not how they don’t.

As well, you are also aware, I think, that in LDS thought it takes a little more doing than to stop believing and leaving the church at the ripe old age of sixteen to get yourself consigned to ‘outer darkness.’ We believe that this is reserved only for those who, knowing PRECISELY what they are doing, choose Satan. Pretty much walking up to the Holy Ghost, knowing exactly Who He is, and telling him 'sorry, not interested." In full and complete understanding of the choice one is making. Do you believe that you have done that?

Irrelevant.

Well, this was my point, put as gently as I could. You have just told me that Catholics said a Mass for Pres. Hinckley (or prayed for him…something like that). Now really, Rebecca; did anybody ask HIM if he wanted that? My point is that your prayers for him, according to you, work whether or not he accedes to the idea,

No Diana, our prayers aren’t magical, calling forth magic powers that save. Any person in purgatory is there because they have already been judged as saved, and in heaven.

and if there was ever an example of a Mormon who wouldn’t…and didn’t…show any hint of wanting to become a Catholic or agree with the idea of purgatory as Catholics describe it, wouldn’t you think that the president of the CoJCoLDS would be that Mormon?

We are not imposing a belief of purgatory on anyone. Outside of that, this argument is atheistic in nature. I find that intriguing.

…and you are now “irked” because we do proxy baptisms, which (if you are correct) your dead will never even know about, and if we are correct, they have the absolute right to say 'no thank you" to. As to that, I have to wonder: if we ARE correct, would you rather that we just do as you do, pray for them in the hope that God will make them Mormon whether they wanted to be or not?

Please read Religio71’s post.

You are, evidently, if you are not Catholic. No choice, no asking, no…‘wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute here…I’ve been a faithful Mormon/Baptist/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Wiccan ALL MY LIFE, and now…pffft? I went to sleep a Lutheran, and all of a sudden I’m in Catholic purgatory, getting prayed for? Say WHAT???"

No Diana, you remain who you are. The sacrifices your ancestors made for the mormon church are not discarded as “abominations”. In purgatory, you are already judged to be in heaven. A judgment based exactly on who you are, revealed more clearly than any who pray for you could begin to even pretend.

Sorry about the way I put that, guys, but, I mean…really?

And you are ‘irked’ because Mormons do proxy baptisms on behalf of the dead, and we believe that those same dead have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT and power to tell us where to stuff it?

No Diana, irked that in order for a Catholic to be in your idea of highest degree of heave, you MUST accept what is completely outside of who you are.

You are claiming we believe that Catholic dead for whom we have done proxy baptisms suddenly have to 'denounce your entire life, as though it were wasted and had no point whatsoever," and also claiming that there is no teaching in purgatory, and that God does the purifying (and that your prayers, here, have a hand in that).

Our prayers do not purify, any more than your prayers heal the sick.

That is presenting the situation precisely 180 degrees from what it actually is (at least, as it pertains to our beliefs) and you are criticizing us as if we did what you actually do.

And you don’t see it.

I find that…well, I guess intriguing is a good word.

No Diana, you don’t see it. Which, is not all that surprising.

 

[Religio71]

And ‘spirit prison’ is different from purgatory, how, exactly?

One main difference is that repentance is possible in Spirit Prison. This is unnecessary in Purgatory since again, we believe that those in Purgatory (as everyone else that has died) has been judged, and their eternal reward has already been decided. They will attain full salvation, i.e. Heaven. The 3 degrees of Heaven in LDS theology would be important here, since not everyone in Spirit Prison is going to the Celestial Kingdom or would be exalted, which is rightly seen as “full salvation”.

And purgatory is the place where people who aren’t quite ready for heaven go, and God works on them in spite of themselves, and your prayers work on them in spite of themselves…

I don’t really see anything “in spite of themselves” here. They have already been saved, they do not need to reject any previous notions to be saved. Purgatory is where one is prepared/purified to enter Heaven. There is nothing more one can do for themselves after death. This is a main difference between the two concepts.

By the way, so are the folks in 'spirit prison." Remember, in our view, they are all headed for heaven.

But not all of them are going to the same Kingdom, and not all will be exalted, or receive full salvation. In Purgatory, everyone is going to the same place, and everyone will have the full vision and experience of God.

…but they need to have work done on them, will they, nil they, in order to be made…acceptable? I guess that’s a sort of appropriate word. Acceptable.

Ok they need to be made ‘acceptable’ to God in order to achieve heaven. Now…Rebecca is telling me that people who make it to Purgatory don’t need to change the beliefs that they held in life.

Uhmn…God is going to allow them to continue to believe falsity, and allow them to achieve heaven?

Yes, they have to be purified, and we believe that many/most Catholics will need some sort of purification before entering into the eternal presence of God. I personally have never thought about “changing beliefs” in Purgatory, nor have I read much on the subject to know what various theologians have said on the subject. The point that we are trying to make is that there is no “accept this, or else you will not go here” that can happen, since they have already been judged and will go to Heaven. There is nothing more that one has to “do”. I would assume that when one is before God, they would accept whatever the situation actually is (as in, who is “right” about the afterlife), however their judgment is fully based on what happened in their earthly life, and not anything done in the afterlife.

 

[dianaiad]

I thought we were talking about heaven, and who is there, and how they get there. Not how they don’t.

Irrelevant.

Actually, it is. You are the one who made an inaccurate claim about our beliefs. It is always appropriate to correct those when they appear, no matter where they appear.

No Diana, our prayers aren’t magical, calling forth magic powers that save. Any person in purgatory is there because they have already been judged as saved, and in heaven.

I did not say ‘magical,’ Rebecca. I think that the question is applicable here. Your prayers for Pres. Hinckley; as appreciated as they were by his family and the members of the church he led, the question remains: did anybody ask Pres. Hinckley?

Our lack of objection to the idea, even our appreciation of the intent behind it, doesn’t come from any belief that those prayers will make any difference to HIM. It comes from the very real appreciation that our Catholic brothers and sisters care that much…and from the appreciation of the faith involved.

Part of that appreciation is the understanding that you believe that your prayers will make a difference to him. So the question I am asking is pretty simple: if those in purgatory are ‘saved’ and headed to heaven, then why bother praying for them? What do those prayers accomplish?

You mentioned that those souls in purgatory don’t 'need to give permission." In other words, the choice is yours, not theirs. Whether God allows them to do any good or not is God’s, not theirs. They are ‘saved,’ and thus have no more control over what happens to them? Is that it?

We are not imposing a belief of purgatory on anyone. Outside of that, this argument is atheistic in nature. I find that intriguing.

Yes. You are. You are imposing it upon those who have died. You don’t ask their permission, and you don’t even allow for any rebellion on their parts; no choice, no 'sorry, I’m not interested…" nothing.

At the same time you criticize us for making an offer that they can accept or refuse as they choose.

Please read Religio71’s post.

No Diana, you remain who you are. The sacrifices your ancestors made for the mormon church are not discarded as “abominations”. In purgatory, you are already judged to be in heaven. A judgment based exactly on who you are, revealed more clearly than any who pray for you could begin to even pretend.

No Diana, irked that in order for a Catholic to be in your idea of highest degree of heave, you MUST accept what is completely outside of who you are.

I don’t see that. According to what you have told me, purgatory is for those who are headed for heaven, but ‘who they are’ isn’t quite up to snuff yet. Therefore they must be further honed, or perfected…and they have no choice in that. God works on them, people like you pray for them, until ‘who they are’ is changed enough to be acceptable for heaven.

And nobody asks them whether they want to do this or not. “Who they are” is utterly changed, because if ‘who they are’ was eligible for heaven, that’s where they would be, not in purgatory.

Our prayers do not purify, any more than your prayers heal the sick.

No Diana, you don’t see it. Which, is not all that surprising.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Diana, God is your creator. The entire point of Salvation is to be with Him. That choice is made here, in this life. For those who do not hear the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, through no fault of their own, they will be judged for who they are, in their understanding of God and what it means to do His Will. One friend of mine liked to tell me even a cannibal will be in heaven for adhering to the beliefs of God that is known to them.

There is not another Gospel that teaches us otherwise. Christ died for all, not just Catholics or just Mormons. If your Pres. Hinckley is in purgatory or heaven at this very moment, it was because he was judged as seeking to do God’s will, according to his understanding. It is because it is God’s desire, that all His children, us are with Him. There is no greater proof than His Sacrifice.

And finally, his purification is a healing fire, not a fire of destruction. All consequences of sin that remain, are healed. This is also the message of Jesus’ death and resurrection. The sin of the world has been healed by God. Is this something that you, or I, asked for? Yet, God did this, for us. Do you scream and yell, God forced this on you?

Surely you understand that God is Good, and can do no evil.

 

[Religio71]

This article from the Catholic Encyclopedia may help with understanding prayer for the dead.

newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm

2 Maccabees 12:42-46 also gives us insight into the Catholic and Orthodox practice of prayer for the dead (this is from the Deuterocanonicals, which we see as part of the Old Testament):

42
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

 

[dianaiad]

This article from the Catholic Encyclopedia may help with understanding prayer for the dead.

newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm

2 Maccabees 12:42-46 also gives us insight into the Catholic and Orthodox practice of prayer for the dead (this is from the Deuterocanonicals, which we see as part of the Old Testament):

42
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Here is what I understand…please pardon me if I get this ‘off.’

Purgatory is a place where people go who are not yet ready for heaven, but have been judged as eventually going there.

The folks who go there are the folks who have done the best they could do with the knowledge they have, and purgatory is the place where everything that went wrong here is purified.

You believe this, and you also believe that those who are there understand what’s going on with the process, and would, therefore automatically agree with it and want it; they don’t get a choice, in other words, because they simply wouldn’t make a different choice if they were given one.

It’s all good, in other words.

It explains a couple of things to me. It explains why Catholics have decided to refuse access to parish records to Mormons. It explains the entire thing.

However, may I offer one suggestion? Simply because your point of view is that once people die they come to know the truth of everything and thus would not turn down truth, it doesn’t mean that everybody else has that same POV—and when examining the beliefs of others, it’s a really good idea to examine what they do from within THEIR point of view, not yours.

Here is what I see: I have been attacked, criticized, called ‘evil’ and any number of names, and been put on the defensive, because we Mormons offer proxy baptism and other ordinances to those who have died. We are called ‘arrogant’ and ‘presumptuous’ because we haven’t asked permission of the relatives, and can’t ask permission of the dead…and I"ve never quite figured out why.

Now I know why. Because your beliefs about what happens after we die, of purgatory and the efficacy of prayers on behalf of the dead, and of God’s ‘refining fire,’ you believe that what you do is fine—because in your world view the dead will of course accept it…the quote was ‘the dead have no need to accept [it]’ It’s just the way things work. You die, you go to hell, purgatory or directly to heaven, and it’s all done. Those in purgatory have to get some rough spots blown off, but they have no more choice in the matter than the glass vase being put in an annealing oven. Nor, from your pov, would they want one (and that is the ultimate in the opposite of free will, from where I sit).

So you are having some problems with our world view, which is that death, and what happens after that, isn’t an instantaneous knowing of all things. We too believe that men will be judged by the way they handled what knowledge of truth they had in their lives; I too have heard the ‘cannibal’ analogy. I’ve used it—usually to the accompaniment of jeers and catcalls from my opponents, who proclaim that people who die without knowing about the Christ are going to hell, period.

We believe that what a man dies with, that’s what he takes with him…including all the prejudices, habits, thought processes and peculiarities—and free will—he had in life. So…we make an offer. Just an offer. WE do not believe that what we do binds or restricts anybody to accept or reject, and in this case, since it is our practices, and you don’t believe that those practices matter (or even that your dead will know about them) it is what we believe about them that counts.

Instead, in criticizing us, and refusing to allow access to parish records, you ARE laying your world view on ours; you are behaving as if what we do actually is effective; that what we do, as you believe your prayers are, actually forces people to be what they would refuse to be if they were still alive, and that offer came as a knock on the door by missionaries rather than a proxy baptism.

I have seen the argument, gently made as it is, that providing the parish records is akin to ‘supporting a sin.’

But…since when do the Catholics believe that anybody is sinning who knocks on a door in order to teach his or her own belief system? How is that a sin?

I’m going to leave this thread; I see something here that enlightens me…but probably frustrates you because I’m sure you don’t think I ‘get’ it yet. The problem is, of course, that I do. The difference is that the only thing I feel about your prayers for Pres. Hinckley or any other non-Catholic is appreciation for the kindness and faith you show by doing so—even though you are convinced that what YOU do works no matter what the beneficiary of your prayers would have thought about it in life.

 

[Religio71]

Here is what I understand…please pardon me if I get this ‘off.’

Purgatory is a place where people go who are not yet ready for heaven, but have been judged as eventually going there.

Here is how the Catechism describes Purgatory:

**1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611**

The folks who go there are the folks who have done the best they could do with the knowledge they have, and purgatory is the place where everything that went wrong here is purified.

Not necessarily. Dogmatically, not much has been defined on Purgatory, though much has been speculated on the subject, and there is a difference in specific understanding of Purgatory between Roman and Eastern Catholics. What is known is that there is an intermediary state where purification occurs before entrance to Heaven. In the Roman Catholic church (remembering that the “Catholic Church” comprises 23 churches, of which the “Roman Catholic” church is the largest), there is a whole theology on temporal punishment for sins forgiven, related to penance, indulgences, and ultimately, Purgatory.

Another way I look at it is this. I believe that I am following and living the Catholic Faith, and hope to be saved. However, even though we are all saints, I am definitely not as “saintly” as the canonized saints, who are there as examples for the worldwide Church. Therefore, even though I believe in and live the same Faith as the canonized saints, I expect to spend some “time” being purified before Heaven (I hope and pray!) to be at the same…“standard”.

You believe this, and you also believe that those who are there understand what’s going on with the process, and would, therefore automatically agree with it and want it; they don’t get a choice, in other words, because they simply wouldn’t make a different choice if they were given one.

It’s all good, in other words.

That is my complete opinion and speculation, not based on any theologian’s or the Church’s views, as I believe I stated. What is clear is that after death, we are judged immediately. Therefore, there is no “agreeing or disagreeing” with God. God is the Judge, and we cannot say “I don’t agree” on His judgment. I would think you would agree with that. If God judges one to Heaven, with purification first, there is no “actually, can I choose whether or not I accept that?”.

It explains a couple of things to me. It explains why Catholics have decided to refuse access to parish records to Mormons. It explains the entire thing.

I’m not familiar with that situation. But if Catholic parishes have decided to refuse access to parish records to Mormons, I see nothing wrong with that. It simply wouldn’t make sense to give those records, anymore than we would give them to any other religion.

However, may I offer one suggestion? Simply because your point of view is that once people die they come to know the truth of everything and thus would not turn down truth, it doesn’t mean that everybody else has that same POV—and when examining the beliefs of others, it’s a really good idea to examine what they do from within THEIR point of view, not yours.

Yes, I believe we’ve been doing that.

 

[Religio71]

Here is what I see: I have been attacked, criticized, called ‘evil’ and any number of names, and been put on the defensive, because we Mormons offer proxy baptism and other ordinances to those who have died. We are called ‘arrogant’ and ‘presumptuous’ because we haven’t asked permission of the relatives, and can’t ask permission of the dead…and I"ve never quite figured out why.

Yes, I’m familiar with this. I don’t think it’s “evil” or “arrogant”, it’s simply what you believe. Catholics are also called those things because we believe that the Church is the “one true Church”. It’s simply our belief.

Now I know why. Because your beliefs about what happens after we die, of purgatory and the efficacy of prayers on behalf of the dead, and of God’s ‘refining fire,’ you believe that what you do is fine—because in your world view the dead will of course accept it…the quote was ‘the dead have no need to accept [it]’ It’s just the way things work. You die, you go to hell, purgatory or directly to heaven, and it’s all done. Those in purgatory have to get some rough spots blown off, but they have no more choice in the matter than the glass vase being put in an annealing oven. Nor, from your pov, would they want one (and that is the ultimate in the opposite of free will, from where I sit).

From our point of view, of course we firmly believe that our view is the full Truth, so there is no need to entertain that other views “might happen”. As far as the dead accepting anything, again, we believe that after death, God judges, and that’s that. The dead have no choice in this matter, and I don’t believe the Bible or any ancient historical documents say or imply that the dead can choose to agree or disagree with God’s judgment. That is what we are emphasizing here. We have complete free will on earth, and do what we do with it. After this life, God will then judge us on everything, especially the Faith. There is no free will in accepting or rejecting His judgment, so I’m not sure what your point is here.

So you are having some problems with our world view, which is that death, and what happens after that, isn’t an instantaneous knowing of all things. We too believe that men will be judged by the way they handled what knowledge of truth they had in their lives; I too have heard the ‘cannibal’ analogy. I’ve used it—usually to the accompaniment of jeers and catcalls from my opponents, who proclaim that people who die without knowing about the Christ are going to hell, period.

Catholics emphasize that after death, there is an “instantaneous” (again, we believe that eternity is outside of time and space) judgment.

We believe that what a man dies with, that’s what he takes with him…including all the prejudices, habits, thought processes and peculiarities—and free will—he had in life. So…we make an offer. Just an offer. WE do not believe that what we do binds or restricts anybody to accept or reject, and in this case, since it is our practices, and you don’t believe that those practices matter (or even that your dead will know about them) it is what we believe about them that counts.

From our point of view, God, being the ultimate Judge, decides the eternal fate of the soul after death. If God judges one to purification in Purgatory, that is where they go, there is no choice. Now, based on our understanding on Biblical passages, it is also understood that prayer for the dead can help those in Purgatory, by making their “time” in purification “shorter”. So, we do this. We don’t know “how” it happens, but we do know that it is efficacious. So, if God judges one to Purgatory, and we assume that the majority of souls will need some sort of purification, and that prayer for the dead is efficacious, we do this. It isn’t a matter of “choice” for us, since God has already judged, and you cannot choose to agree or disagree.

Remember that all of our views on non-Catholic practices are coming from a Catholic perspective. Since we believe that we have the fullness of Truth, we can discuss other beliefs, and it should be done in a respectful manner, but ultimately, we believe that diverging beliefs are false, and have no basis. The LDS Church believes similarly.

Instead, in criticizing us, and refusing to allow access to parish records, you ARE laying your world view on ours; you are behaving as if what we do actually is effective; that what we do, as you believe your prayers are, actually forces people to be what they would refuse to be if they were still alive, and that offer came as a knock on the door by missionaries rather than a proxy baptism.

I have seen the argument, gently made as it is, that providing the parish records is akin to ‘supporting a sin.’

But…since when do the Catholics believe that anybody is sinning who knocks on a door in order to teach his or her own belief system? How is that a sin?

I actually wouldn’t say that it is “supporting sin”. It is more like supporting a false belief (from our perspective). Why do you expect Catholics to give up parish records for LDS to conduct ordinances that we believe have no effect? I’m not understanding this logic, sorry.

And our prayers aren’t “forcing” anything. We don’t understand how this purification occurs or how exactly prayers for the dead work. We just know that they are efficacious. And we also know that God judges, and there is no debating with Him, so I really don’t see the point in a “free will” argument, since even though God gives us free will, we can’t use that free will to agree or disagree with His judgment.

I’m going to leave this thread; I see something here that enlightens me…but probably frustrates you because I’m sure you don’t think I ‘get’ it yet. The problem is, of course, that I do. The difference is that the only thing I feel about your prayers for Pres. Hinckley or any other non-Catholic is appreciation for the kindness and faith you show by doing so—even though you are convinced that what YOU do works no matter what the beneficiary of your prayers would have thought about it in life.

I still don’t think you fully understand, from the above points I made, especially in relation to the particular judgment. And yes, I do believe that what we do works or is the Truth no matter what others believe, since, Catholicism is not a relativist religion. There is only one Truth, one Faith, one Baptism. If God says that a soul is going to Purgatory before Heaven, that is that. We have no say in God’s judgments. So, if that soul is in Purgatory, we pray for them in the hope that it will help them go to Heaven “faster”.

 

[dianaiad]

,snip to here…

I still don’t think you fully understand, from the above points I made, especially in relation to the particular judgment. And yes, I do believe that what we do works or is the Truth no matter what others believe, since, Catholicism is not a relativist religion. There is only one Truth, one Faith, one Baptism. If God says that a soul is going to Purgatory before Heaven, that is that. We have no say in God’s judgments. So, if that soul is in Purgatory, we pray for them in the hope that it will help them go to Heaven “faster”.

Thank you, sir, for your patient response to my points.

We share this; we both believe that our faith is ‘the truth’ and the way things will go. Therefore we, of course,believe that what we do is a good thing, and can only help, not harm, those who have died.

Even if you guys are correct, what we do cannot harm those who have died. If you are correct, those in purgatory (or hell, or heaven) won’t even know about it. Your prayers on behalf of the dead can only help, and never harm, those who have died. If we are correct, those who have died will not be affected one way or the other.

Here is the difference between us, from what I can see. I have enough faith that I’m right to not only 'allow" (that’s in quotes because it’s not my place to allow or disallow) Catholics the right to pray for anybody they want to, including the dead that ‘belong’ to me, and even appreciate and honor the faith and good wishes that go with those prayers. Even if I don’t believe that they will actually do anything for the dead, they do a great deal for your own faith, charity and relationship with God–and insofar as the dead may know about them, I think most of them appreciate that same faith.

However, when the Catholic church (or any other church/faith, for that matter ) actively moves to prevent our doing proxy work for the dead, even when doing so means that that precious history is lost, (as it sometimes is…) then how much faith is that showing?

Well, never mind. I don’t think we will ever really ‘get’ each other. We have entirely different mind sets. Please excuse the obvious bias in the way I present them; I think I’ve mentioned that it is impossible for anyone to be completely objective when it comes to religion, but I will do the best I can.

Catholics believe that, while men have free will, it applies only to a point; there is fate, and God’s will–and ultimate judgment that will settle the matter for all, even those who are in purgatory, who no longer have their own wills, though they are aided by the prayers and faith shown in the choices you make. Whoever is in purgatory, no matter what faith they held in life, is of your faith then; no choice whatsoever.

Mormons believe in free will all the way down the line, since we believe that we are, literally, the children of God, we will always be able to say no—hence the one unpardonable sin (which you also believe in, I see.) We believe that those who die and see an offer like this made to them will have some rather strong evidence that oops…they were wrong and we are right, but they still have the choice themselves.

As a result, I think, of the two basic mindsets, we have two Christian religions with a fundamentally different approach to mortal life and faith. We believe in the absolute right of humankind to worship as they please (as long as they aren’t hurting anybody against their will, or killing anyone–or interfering with the right of others to worship as they please). At the same time, we also believe that it is our job to talk them out of it. Force? Never. Proselytize? All the time. We believe everybody else has the same right.

I get the impression, from here (and from history) that Catholics have a somewhat looser view of that; ‘we are True.’ therefore it’s ok to enforce your religious beliefs upon other people and prevent them from exercising their freedom of religion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Diana, free will is not an understanding that there should be more and more choices. It is an understanding that following God’s Will, which is ultimately Love for God (as He commands), is freely given.

This is where we find true freedom.

We are judged at our death by the choices we made in this life. Judgement is not removal of free will.

 

[Religio71]

Thank you, sir, for your patient response to my points.

We share this; we both believe that our faith is ‘the truth’ and the way things will go. Therefore we, of course,believe that what we do is a good thing, and can only help, not harm, those who have died.

Even if you guys are correct, what we do cannot harm those who have died. If you are correct, those in purgatory (or hell, or heaven) won’t even know about it. Your prayers on behalf of the dead can only help, and never harm, those who have died. If we are correct, those who have died will not be affected one way or the other.

I agree. We both are doing what we think is right.

Here is the difference between us, from what I can see. I have enough faith that I’m right to not only 'allow" (that’s in quotes because it’s not my place to allow or disallow) Catholics the right to pray for anybody they want to, including the dead that ‘belong’ to me, and even appreciate and honor the faith and good wishes that go with those prayers. Even if I don’t believe that they will actually do anything for the dead, they do a great deal for your own faith, charity and relationship with God–and insofar as the dead may know about them, I think most of them appreciate that same faith.

However, when the Catholic church (or any other church/faith, for that matter ) actively moves to prevent our doing proxy work for the dead, even when doing so means that that precious history is lost, (as it sometimes is…) then how much faith is that showing?

I’m all for everyone doing whatever they want (as long as it isn’t hurting anyone of course!). After reading more about the issue you brought up, it seems that the issue for Catholics is with the access to records. I do believe that since the records of a Catholic person belong to the Catholic parish and diocese, the bishop of that diocese does have a say in the use of those records, or more precisely, who has access to them. I don’t think that anyone has a “right” to anything that belongs to another organization. It’s a little difficult for me to put this in words, but basically, everyone should do what they desire, but in that right, one also has the right to deny access to something that belongs to them. To me, it has less to do with barring LDS from doing what they desire, and more to do with the right of the Church to control access to their own records, which no one, save for the person that the record is about (and in the case of minors, the parents/guardians), has a right to access.

I wonder how the LDS that did want to gain records of Catholic documents went about that (random thought). Not implying anything negative, but just curious about how the whole process worked in the past.

Well, never mind. I don’t think we will ever really ‘get’ each other. We have entirely different mind sets. Please excuse the obvious bias in the way I present them; I think I’ve mentioned that it is impossible for anyone to be completely objective when it comes to religion, but I will do the best I can.

I agree, we’re both biased.

Catholics believe that, while men have free will, it applies only to a point; there is fate, and God’s will–and ultimate judgment that will settle the matter for all, even those who are in purgatory, who no longer have their own wills, though they are aided by the prayers and faith shown in the choices you make. Whoever is in purgatory, no matter what faith they held in life, is of your faith then; no choice whatsoever.

Yes, Catholics believe we always have free will, however God decides our eternal fate, and I don’t see any Biblical or historical precedent for a belief that we can say “no” to God’s judgment on our post-earthly life fate.

And there is only one true Faith, in our belief. However that doesn’t stop non-Catholics from being saved. But the important thing to note is that they are all saved through Jesus Christ. Hindu gods don’t exist, Pagan gods don’t exist, etc. There is only one God. So, in our worldview, once someone dies, it doesn’t matter what they believed, since there is only one Truth. If they were ignorant of that Truth, they are judged on the knowledge that they had, and the life that they led with that knowledge. You can’t choose to say “no” to God’s judgment, because I believed in reincarnation, for example.

Mormons believe in free will all the way down the line, since we believe that we are, literally, the children of God, we will always be able to say no—hence the one unpardonable sin (which you also believe in, I see.) We believe that those who die and see an offer like this made to them will have some rather strong evidence that oops…they were wrong and we are right, but they still have the choice themselves.

I think an equivalent in LDS theology would be a fundamentalist Christian saying “no” to God’s judgment that they have to go to Spirit Prison, since they did not have or accept the full, Restored Gospel.

 

[Religio71]

As a result, I think, of the two basic mindsets, we have two Christian religions with a fundamentally different approach to mortal life and faith. We believe in the absolute right of humankind to worship as they please (as long as they aren’t hurting anybody against their will, or killing anyone–or interfering with the right of others to worship as they please). At the same time, we also believe that it is our job to talk them out of it. Force? Never. Proselytize? All the time. We believe everybody else has the same right.

I get the impression, from here (and from history) that Catholics have a somewhat looser view of that; ‘we are True.’ therefore it’s ok to enforce your religious beliefs upon other people and prevent them from exercising their freedom of religion.

I think the Catholic viewpoint is a little more “liberal” than the “if you don’t believe in Jesus, even if you never heard of Him, you’re off to Hell” viewpoint that I’ve seen and scoffed at over at CARM . However, I think what you notice extends from our view that this life is the only chance you have, and that there is nothing that one can “do” to be saved in the afterlife, since judgment comes immediately. So, while we have various theologies that attempt to, based on the Bible and oral teaching, “sort out” what happens to those that aren’t visibly in union with the Church (baptism of blood, baptism of desire, limbo, etc), we know (in our perspective) that the surest way of salvation is only found in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox put it in an interesting way: we know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don’t really know where it isn’t. This is basically what we believe as well. I don’t think it’s okay to “force” others to your viewpoint, however, in regards to the situation of Catholic parishes and baptism of the dead, I do think that Catholic parishes and dioceses have the right to do what they please with their own records.

In the end, we both believe that we can somehow affect the souls of the dead.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Religio, just one thing to add that I read somewhere (can’t remember where). The Church considers Sacramental records as part of the Deposit of Faith. In that, they testify to the Faith of Catholics through the ages. So they are to us, Sacred records, and I think LDS of all people would understand what it means to consider something Sacred.

 

[Religio71]

Hi Religio, just one thing to add that I read somewhere (can’t remember where). The Church considers Sacramental records as part of the Deposit of Faith. In that, they testify to the Faith of Catholics through the ages. So they are to us, Sacred records, and I think LDS of all people would understand what it means to consider something Sacred.

Thank you, that makes sense. And in reading on one LDS blog about this, other LDS commented that as much as they don’t “like” this restriction (since it stops them from doing what they want to do), they understand it, because the records do not belong to the public, but to the Church, and they can do as they see fit with them.

 

[dianaiad]

I think an equivalent in LDS theology would be a fundamentalist Christian saying “no” to God’s judgment that they have to go to Spirit Prison, since they did not have or accept the full, Restored Gospel.

huh. Good point. However, from what Rebecca has said, and what you have said here, there is still, I believe, a difference.

Y’see, I’ve often argued with those who believe that there is no true ‘free will,’ that no matter how constrained the choices in front of you are, there is still a choice one can make. Even the guy in front of the firing squad about to be shot has a choice; no matter how tied up he is, or how blindfolded…no matter that there is nothing at all he can do to avoid dying in the next few seconds, he has a choice; what he thinks about, perhaps. Whether he has his eyes open or shut. Whether he says something, or attempts to…

The example used on me is often something like…a man falls off the cliff; he can’t choose, suddenly, to fly. My answer is–but he can choose to try. From the description Rebecca (and you, come to think of it) have given me of purgatory, even that is denied; the soul there cannot even conceive of another option.

How does that work in your example of the person in the LDS version of ‘spirit prison’ not able to say ‘no’ to being put there? Quite simply…he can indeed say ‘no.’

It just won’t do him any good.

However, saying ‘yes’ while he is there, to the offer of a proxy baptism just might.

 

[dianaiad]

Thank you, that makes sense. And in reading on one LDS blog about this, other LDS commented that as much as they don’t “like” this restriction (since it stops them from doing what they want to do), they understand it, because the records do not belong to the public, but to the Church, and they can do as they see fit with them.

Indeed…we do NOT ‘like’ it, since it does impede the work, and yes, we do understand that the Catholic church has the right to do whatever it likes with its records.

However, it was mentioned that there is an exception for those about whom the records are kept; the relatives. It is my understanding that the Catholics break their own rules in this instance; the records are open to relatives—unless those relatives are Mormon. Is that understanding in error?