Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary

[guanophore]

The followers of the Way were called Christians at Antioch first, were they not? They were not called Jewish Christians were they?

They were widely seen as a Hebrew sect, and in fact, all the Jews were expelled from Rome on account of conflicts between Christians and Jews.

 

[Pax]

No, you don’t. Protestants in the eyes of the Catholic church are not Christians but “Protesters”.

You are making an uninformed comment. Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 817, 818 & 819. Paragraph 818 says: “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

oakridgechurch.com/riggs/infantba.htm

“There is nothing in the Bible which teaches that men inherit the sin of Adam, or that men are born in a state of sin.
… All men are sinners, not because they have inherited sin, but because “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23).”

Sorry, but scripture disagrees with you. Note the following:

Rom 5:14-16
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.

Rom 11:32
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

1 Cor 15:21-22
For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

oakridgechurch.com/riggs/infantba.htm

"An infant is not a subject of the baptism ordained by God in His Holy Word. …
…

There is not a single instance in the New Testament of infants being baptized, but rather a glaring lack of it. For example, Acts 8:12 says, “But when they believed Philip as he preached the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”

You are incorrect. Scripture records that entire households were baptized. See the references to the Roman jailer, Lydia, and Stephanes. Scripture does not indicate that children were not included. Likewise we see some rather interesting things stated by Jesus concerning children:

Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were being brought to him in order that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples spoke sternly to those who brought them; but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Luke 18:15-16
People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they sternly ordered them not to do it. But Jesus called for them and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

And there’s more:

Luke 1 :15
The angel Gabriel says that John the Baptist , “even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

LUKE 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
“I WANT you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and **all **drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”

This is an abundantly clear OT prefiguring of baptism and being saved by baptism. The number of Israelites that left Egypt in Exodus is described as follows:

Exodus 12:37-38
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very many cattle, both flocks and herds.

It is obvious from this account and Paul’s reference to passing through the Red Sea and baptism that the sacrament of baptism is for men, women, and children.

You might also check your history. Infants were definitely baptized in the early church. The first argument over infant baptism was not whether or not it should be done. The argument was over whether or not it should be done on the eigth day after birth in the pattern of Jewish circumcision.

 

[viper78912]

Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).

“After Jesus was baptized…the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove….” (Luke3.16-17).
Does the Holy Spirit come into a baptized infant?
If so, why have Confirmation later?
Why not administer Confirmation along with Baptism? denis

 

[Joero]

Holy scriptures is known to be “inspired by the Holy Spirit”. Why then David stated that he was sinful from the time of his conception (Psalms 51: 5), what sin he had done inside the womb of his mother?

I agree that at the beginning of christianity infant baptism was not an issue because they were busy proclaiming the good news of salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, but it doesn’t also abrogate the necessity of infant baptism.

 

[po18guy]

Protestants in the eyes of the Catholic church are not Christians but “Protesters”.

Funny that anyone would name their belief system after such an insult…

"The baptizing of infants originated from the false idea that babies inherit the sin of Adam–termed, “original sin.” In defining different kinds of sins, the book, My Catholic Faith, on page 50 says, “Original sin is the kind of sin that we inherit from Adam.” There is nothing in the Bible which teaches that men inherit the sin of Adam, or that men are born in a state of sin.

Romans 5:12-13. Paul thought so.

 

[foundthelight]

If baptizism saves you… then what about the thief next to Jesus?

Luke 23:42-43
41 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him " Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise"

The thief was not baptized. How then, if you must be baptized to enter Heaven could he have been in Paradise with Jesus?
I looked through many of the previous posts(not all) and found no reference to this. Just thought I would throw it out there to see the thoughts on it.

Remember James and John the sons of Zebedee? Now reflect on His answer to them.

Mar 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.”
Mar 10:36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?”
Mar 10:37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.”
Mar 10:38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”
Mar 10:39 And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized,

Go read the NIV notes on this exchange. I recommend the NIV so that you will see from a non-Catholic source that the cup and baptism refer to extreme suffering.

The thief shared in this suffering, he had faith, he was baptized by sharing in Christ’s baptism in blood on the cross.

Also, when did Christ initiate this Sacrament of Baptism for all? It was after His Resurrection!

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Have you observed all that Christ has commanded? Do you accept the efficacy of Baptism, the Eucharist, and good deeds that Christ commanded? Or do you say that they are unnecessary?

 

[tabcom]

I’M PROUD TO BE A CHRISTIAN, YES I’M A CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN and proud of it.

As a fellow catholic christian, it is my duty to post this . . .

Matthew 12:34 For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Psalms 12:3 The lord shall cut off all flattering lips and the tongue that speaketh proud things.

• cut off - Hebrew: Karath - destroy or consume

James 4:6 – God resisteth the proud but giveth grace to the humble.

• proud - Greek: huperephanos meaning to appear above others from:
• huper - over or above
• phaino - lighten, shine, appear or be seen
• resisteth - antitassomai - originally a military term in Greek meaning “to rage in battle against” or “to make war with”

 

[tabcom]

Originally Posted by tabcom View Post
Allow me to take this ‘illustration’ a little further. When Christ was placed in the tomb, the rock was rolled over the entrance to keep the water from seeping out.

My point is that, the notion that immersing someone in water metaphorically represents being buried in Christ is, as you say –

. . . does not make any sense at all!

:tiphat:

 

[tabcom]

With respects to this OT discussion of whose Catholic whose Christian. The answer is both are. Catholic literally means universal. As opposed to restricted to. Before Christ, God only revealed himself (with only a handful of exceptions) to the Jews. With Christ, thru the Holy Spirit, God’s Family is now universally extended to gentiles.

Catholics are Christians. Christians are Catholics.

What certain Christians are protesting against within this thread is the authority of the church (or Church, depending on ones bias) that is headquartered in Rome.

Hence the centuries old battle between Protestants and Roman Catholics.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic . . . .

 

[tabcom]

That is the classic example of God’s grace known as “the Baptism of desire”. There was no opportunity for physical baptism, so Christ, in His goodness, revealed hope to the repentant thief. Christ’s peace.

So this ‘Batpism of desire’ trumps the dippin’ kind? :whacky:

 

[savedsinner]

Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).

“After Jesus was baptized…the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove….” (Luke3.16-17).
Does the Holy Spirit come into a baptized infant?
If so, why have Confirmation later?
Why not administer Confirmation along with Baptism? denis

I think that some of the eastern churches do both Cnfirmation and Baptism at the same time.

Confirmation
A sacrament in which the Holy Ghost is given to those already baptized in order to make them strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ.

Effects
Confirmation imparts an increase of sanctifying grace which makes the recipient a “perfect Christian”; a special sacramental grace consisting in the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost and notably in the strength and courage to confess boldly the name of Christ;
an indelible character by reason of which the sacrament cannot be received again by the same person.

If anyone is really interested in what the differences between Baptism and Confirmation are here is a link:
The Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation

 

[tabcom]

Returning to po18guy’s commentary . . .

This is classic Protestant error. I will have nothing to do with it.

Classic examples of false prophets twisting truth to their own destruction.

With respects to . . .

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above.”

The water refers to the natural birth.
The water refers to the Word of God.
The water refers to the Holy Spirit.
The water refers to the ministry of John the Baptist.
The water refers to the water of baptism as a requirement for salvation.

The first option looks to the context of Jesus’ words dealing with being born “again” (3:3). Nicodemus responds by mentioning the experience of being born from the womb (v. 4). Jesus then speaks of water and the Spirit and then says, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (3:6). The implication is that the first birth is the natural birth and the second birth is the spiritual birth. In other words, the water refers to the water of the womb – the first birth. This seems to have support in the understanding of Nicodemus about entering into the womb to be born a second time. However sadly, this view is not the most commonly held view.

Footnotes from New American Bible
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above.”

3 [3] Born: see the note on John 1:13. From above: the Greek adverb anothen means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus means “from above” (see John 3:31) but Nicodemus misunderstands it as “again.” This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction.

John 1:13
**8 **who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

8 [13] Believers in Jesus become children of God not through any of the three natural causes mentioned but through God who is the immediate cause of the new spiritual life. Were born: the Greek verb can mean “begotten” (by a male) or “born” (from a female or of parents). The variant “he who was begotten,” asserting Jesus’ virginal conception, is weakly attested in Old Latin and Syriac versions.

Thus, your claim has been refuted.

 

[savedsinner]

As a fellow catholic christian, it is my duty to post this . . .

Matthew 12:34 For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Psalms 12:3 The lord shall cut off all flattering lips and the tongue that speaketh proud things.

• cut off - Hebrew: Karath - destroy or consume

James 4:6 – God resisteth the proud but giveth grace to the humble.

• proud - Greek: huperephanos meaning to appear above others from:
• huper - over or above
• phaino - lighten, shine, appear or be seen
• resisteth - antitassomai - originally a military term in Greek meaning “to rage in battle against” or “to make war with”

JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN BOASTING

 

[savedsinner]

Returning to po18guy’s commentary . . .

With respects to . . .

Footnotes from New American Bible
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above.”

3 [3] Born: see the note on John 1:13. From above: the Greek adverb anothen means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus means “from above” (see John 3:31) but Nicodemus misunderstands it as “again.” This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction.

John 1:13
**8 **who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

8 [13] Believers in Jesus become children of God not through any of the three natural causes mentioned but through God who is the immediate cause of the new spiritual life. Were born: the Greek verb can mean “begotten” (by a male) or “born” (from a female or of parents). The variant “he who was begotten,” asserting Jesus’ virginal conception, is weakly attested in Old Latin and Syriac versions.

Thus, your claim has been refuted.

Mr. Tabcom,
If you have the time, you might want to listen to the first few minutes of program # 11 - Gospels II of Scott Hahn’s “Our Fathers Plan” (real audio format)

or MP3 format. Gospels 2.mp3

He discusses born again - Baptism - Gospel of John.

His insights are better than the footnotes in the NAB in my opinion.

Please take the time to listen if you can.
You don’t have to agree with it, but it will give you a new insight that you might not have considered.

 

[tabcom]

Scripture records that entire households were baptized. See the references to the Roman jailer, Lydia, and Stephanes. Scripture does not indicate that children were not included.

:tsktsk:
Come on now, you can’t have it both ways.
Nor does Scripture indicate children, or more to the point, infants, were included.

With respects to the rest of your post, I have posted my disagreement with your statements elsewhere . . . Infant Baptism.

Could we all keep on topic?

Thread: Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary.

 

[mercygate]

That is the classic example of God’s grace known as “the Baptism of desire”. There was no opportunity for physical baptism, so Christ, in His goodness, revealed hope to the repentant thief.

Christ’s peace.

Indeed. The promise also came directly from the Person of Our Lord before His ascension, when He deputed the Church to “baptize”.

Catholics believe that baptism is required (because Our Lord says so) as the NORMATIVE means for the forgiveness of sin. If water baptism is not possible, and if a person dies for his faith in Jesus Christ, or dies before baptism, through no fault of his own though INTENDING to be baptised, his salvation is secure.

So, we believe that it is POSSIBLE to be saved without water baptism but that we MUST follow our Lord’s command to be baptized whenever it CAN be followed.

 

[foundthelight]

Returning to po18guy’s commentary . . .

With respects to . . .

Footnotes from New American Bible
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above.”

3 [3] Born: see the note on John 1:13. From above: the Greek adverb anothen means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus means “from above” (see John 3:31) but Nicodemus misunderstands it as “again.” This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction.

John 1:13
**8 **who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

8 [13] Believers in Jesus become children of God not through any of the three natural causes mentioned but through God who is the immediate cause of the new spiritual life. Were born: the Greek verb can mean “begotten” (by a male) or “born” (from a female or of parents). The variant “he who was begotten,” asserting Jesus’ virginal conception, is weakly attested in Old Latin and Syriac versions.

Thus, your claim has been refuted.

I beg your pardon, but this rather poor exegesis does not refute anything.

 

[guanophore]

So this ‘Batpism of desire’ trumps the dippin’ kind? :whacky:

In the case where one cannot obtain water baptism, yes. Why do you think Jesus taught His disciples to baptize in water?

 

[Pax]

:tsktsk:
Come on now, you can’t have it both ways.
Nor does Scripture indicate children, or more to the point, infants, were included.

With respects to the rest of your post, I have posted my disagreement with your statements elsewhere . . . Infant Baptism.

Could we all keep on topic?

Thread: Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary.

I stand by my posts.

 

[Joero]

Funny that anyone would name their belief system after such an insult…

Romans 5:12-13. Paul thought so.

That’s right, that is one of the passages that clearly identifies the existence of the original sin .