- Status
T
thistle
Guest
So why did your previous post imply there is by addressing it to those who “oppose the baptism in the spirit”?
If people get spiritually renewed after a dry spell they can call that whatever they want, except a baptism. It is not a baptism and should never be referred to as a baptism.
S
Sirach2
Guest
Hi Thistle,
I am getting the idea that you did not read the entire thread where some very good explanations were given. The problem is semantics, not “sacraments.” The latter bestow sanctifying grace and can be received only once and the Church has given them a name by which we identify them.
The semantic of being unable to find an apt word for the [renewal, outpouring, infilling, anointing, transport, baptism] of the Holy Spirit is causing some to be alarmed - needlessly. It’s just that there is no word in language that describes adequately what the person has experienced. How would you describe Jesus’s words below? As triune God in his divinity, did he “need” the Holy Spirit? Did he “need” the Baptist’s baptism? He was not speaking about the sacrament.
Luke 12:50
And I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized: and how am I straitened until it be accomplished?
I remember reading in St. Teresa of Avila’s autobiography that she was reciting the hymn “Veni, Creator Spiritus” upon the advice of her spiritual director to understand God’s wishes about a matter. During the prayer, she received a “transport.” What does a saint call the experience of the Spirit? What word does one use to describe the indescribable? We can only borrow limited expressions from our language base, but essentially, whatever we call it, is going to be misunderstood by any who have not been granted the experience.
I am getting the idea that you did not read the entire thread where some very good explanations were given. The problem is semantics, not “sacraments.” The latter bestow sanctifying grace and can be received only once and the Church has given them a name by which we identify them.
The semantic of being unable to find an apt word for the [renewal, outpouring, infilling, anointing, transport, baptism] of the Holy Spirit is causing some to be alarmed - needlessly. It’s just that there is no word in language that describes adequately what the person has experienced. How would you describe Jesus’s words below? As triune God in his divinity, did he “need” the Holy Spirit? Did he “need” the Baptist’s baptism? He was not speaking about the sacrament.
Luke 12:50
And I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized: and how am I straitened until it be accomplished?
I remember reading in St. Teresa of Avila’s autobiography that she was reciting the hymn “Veni, Creator Spiritus” upon the advice of her spiritual director to understand God’s wishes about a matter. During the prayer, she received a “transport.” What does a saint call the experience of the Spirit? What word does one use to describe the indescribable? We can only borrow limited expressions from our language base, but essentially, whatever we call it, is going to be misunderstood by any who have not been granted the experience.
S
Skipper350
Guest
Great topic.
My two cents:
My two cents:
- I know, firsthand, the experience being described here is real, not just for the first Christians we read about in Acts, but right now. It shouldn’t threaten anyone- it’s practical spiritual knowledge, not new or heretical doctrine. Read about the lives of the saints!
- You can call it “A big old hug from the Spirit” if you like; doesn’t change what happens.
- I too have wondered why it seems to only be embraced in prayer meetings, etc. The only logical explaination I can accept is that suggested by an earlier post; that the Sacrament of Confirmation is the modern, organized version of what had been a more personal and subjective Tradition in the early Church. Perhaps the average lukewarm Catholic teen is not in the proper sate of mind and heart to accept what can be a fantastic gift.
S
Skipper350
Guest
“… the apostles, in fulfillment of Christ’s will, imparted to the newly baptized by the laying on of hands, the gift of the Spirit that completes the grace of Baptism… The imposition of hands is rightly recognized by Catholic tradition as the origin of the Sacrament of Confirmation, which in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church…”
Catechism of the Catholic Church
(We should have turned to the Catechism in the first place. It’s an amazing resource and should be one of the things that distiguish us from our Fundementalist brothers and sisters; we don’t come up with our own doctrine every time there’s a disagreement, we utilize the wisdom and experience of the Magisterium!)
Catechism of the Catholic Church
(We should have turned to the Catechism in the first place. It’s an amazing resource and should be one of the things that distiguish us from our Fundementalist brothers and sisters; we don’t come up with our own doctrine every time there’s a disagreement, we utilize the wisdom and experience of the Magisterium!)
S
Sirach2
Guest
Nice to meet you, Skipper - I see that you are new, and I hope you are finding the forums spiritually helpful in many ways.
My take on why it often occurs in prayer meetings is due to the powerful presence of the Spirit in many of its members who are gathered together and praying for others to receive “a hug from the Holy Spirit.”
I think this prayer presence generates more heat (to use a crude analogy) than if one is simply praying in solitude, but this too, can happen outside a prayer community, as I mentioned with St. Teresa’s example. I was blessed to receive a “hug” in private, and so we realize how true it is that God will be God and act as He wills.
M
MtnDwellar
Guest
The Catechism quotation relates directly to the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. How does it relate to the baptism in the Holy Spirit?
Enthusiasts have been recommending that one does his own research and Googles. I have been Googling, but not finding much. Any help?
I
InspiritCarol
Guest
S
Skipper350
Guest
Mtn:
If we look at the Acts of the Apostles, we see that often new believers were “baptized” but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. It’s clear if you look at Acts 8, for example, that what happens could be taken as a precursor to our modern order of Sacraments.
Christians had preached to these folks and baptized them. However, seeing that the Holy Spirit “had not yet fallen upon any of them,” they called some apostles (priests? bishops?) who “laid hands on them and they received the Spirit.” Apparently, these guys understood that although they were perfectly able to preach the word and affect conversions, someone already filled with the Spirit needed to touch and pray with the new believers to make sure they got all the goodies.
(NOTE: any reference to goodies, folks, guys… all my words, not from Scripture or Catechism…)
That excerpt from the Catechism is explaining that this ancient tradition is where the Sacrament of Confirmation comes from. That’s why I posted it.
If we look at the Acts of the Apostles, we see that often new believers were “baptized” but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. It’s clear if you look at Acts 8, for example, that what happens could be taken as a precursor to our modern order of Sacraments.
Christians had preached to these folks and baptized them. However, seeing that the Holy Spirit “had not yet fallen upon any of them,” they called some apostles (priests? bishops?) who “laid hands on them and they received the Spirit.” Apparently, these guys understood that although they were perfectly able to preach the word and affect conversions, someone already filled with the Spirit needed to touch and pray with the new believers to make sure they got all the goodies.
(NOTE: any reference to goodies, folks, guys… all my words, not from Scripture or Catechism…)
That excerpt from the Catechism is explaining that this ancient tradition is where the Sacrament of Confirmation comes from. That’s why I posted it.
I
Indyann
Guest
Here is the transcript of a talk given by Father Cantalamessa… He is the Preacher to the Papal Household and has been for about 30 years now. He is also charismatic. This talk may answer some of your questions.
cantalamessa.org/en/articoloView.php?id=56
You can also read some of his homilies .
M
MtnDwellar
Guest
Thanks Indyann and tsering. That’s all good stuff.
Father Cantalamessa is wonderful spokesman on behalf of Charismatic Renewal.
Father Cantalamessa is wonderful spokesman on behalf of Charismatic Renewal.
po18guy
Well-known member
I simply follow the terminology used by the charismatic movement, approved by the Church hierarchy from the top down.
As we have very clearly established in this thread, it is not a Sacramental water baptism. It is an epiclesis, a calling down of the Holy Spirit in prayer by the laying on of hands, normally by a Priest or Bishop - a spiritual immersion.
I think that you may be excessively focused on the term “baptism”. Remember, please, that the Greek word baptismos simply meant a ceremonial washing or immersion. The term existed long before John the Baptist ever baptized, and long before our Lord took flesh. Thus, there are many forms of baptism. Only one is the Sacramental Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is sacred, and is done once in a lifetime.
Do you condemn all other uses of the word “baptism”, even though it quite properly describes many other forms of immersion?
Such condemnation of all other uses of the word “baptism” from human dialog would raise a serious problem for the Church: what then to call the baptism of John? It was not of the Holy Spirit, and was not a Sacrament. Are you proposing that the Church eliminate calling it a baptism? The bible itself would have to be changed!
S
Skipper350
Guest
Good observation.
M
MtnDwellar
Guest
I like what I have read about Charismatic Renewal and baptism in the Holy Spirit. I will explore it personally. Thanks.
I don’t like this question. We know what is implied and the question is probably asked by every heretic. We know that for each gift of the Holy Spirit, Satan has one similar. Opposition is healthy and necessary. Without critical thought and proper discernment we will definitely fall into the hands of the evil one.
God Bless us.
D
Duc_in_Altum
Guest
I’m happy to know that some people were better catechized and actually had an experience of the Holy Spirit in their lives without going through a Charismatic community. As for me, I was born a cradle Catholic, like most people in Latin America countries. For my family, religion and Sacraments where just an opportunity (or rather an excuse) for partying, socializing and gathering with friends, nothing about the Sacrament per se.
I drifted away from the faith when I was 12 and started to deep dive in New Age, I was confirmed when I was 16 years old because my parents insisted. It is not because they were concerned about me being a “soldier for Christ” and I gave in not because I was convinced about practicing the Catholic religion, it was just another opportunity for my family to get together and have a party, and I was Ok with that.
I’m sad to remember that I slept through all the celebration and barely remember when I was standing in front of the Bishop. I didn’t feel anything particular that day. I was more involved in filling the need for God in my life with New Age stuff that trying to live my own faith.
This lasted until 2 days before my 20th birthday, when I went to a 2 day retreat with a Charismatic community in my hometown.
I didn’t know much about my faith. Was it because I had a poor catechesis? Was it because I was not living with the most practicing/church going family? Whatever it was, I know that participating in that 2-day retreat saved my life.
I was so empty prior to that experience, I was so thirsty for God and was looking for Him in the wrong places. One day in March of 1993 I felt I couldn’t take anymore the emptiness, the lonesomeness inside of me and I thought about taking my own life by throwing myself to the subway rails. I was going to materialize this wish of mine. I remember that I though “whether I live or die does not make any difference. Nobody will care”. When I saw the subway approaching and I was ready to jump, a sudden fear got a hold of me and left me shaky. Instead of going to class as I was supposed to, I went to visit a friend of mine. I never told her why I was crying so desperately, I cried until I had no more tears. Poor thing was so preoccupied that she did the only thing she knew could help me: she took me to my first Mass in a Charismatic community that day.
I was hooked! The music, the praising, the joy of the people around me. I started going to Mass several times during the week and by August I was attending my first 2-day retreat. On August 15th, 1993 (the last day of the retreat), at 4:30PM my life changed dramatically.
Before that day I had been kind of getting back in touch with the faith of my childhood. But that day! Oh boy! It was the real deal!
It was the time for prayer for the “renewal” in the Spirit. I was prayed over by two lay people from the community. I felt a breeze sweeping through me from above and all of a sudden my body felt weightless. I cried, I prayed, I laughed. I had never ever felt like that before.
I noticed immediately a change in my personal prayer, I started reading and praying with my Bible, I learned the Rosary, I got me a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to start learning more about my faith, I got involved in the community, I was bold to explain and defend my faith.
Almost 18 years had passed since that glorious day, and I can testify the good fruits this experience has brought into my life. I no longer participate in a Charismatic community. Actually I’m more on the conservative side now and prefer more solemn celebrations, but this experience allowed me to value my Catholic faith even more, and I don’t need to be in a Charismatic meeting or Mass to feel the Holy Spirit working in my life. But, let’s say it, hadn’t been for that experience of renewal in the Holy Spirit, I don’t know where would I be now.
I drifted away from the faith when I was 12 and started to deep dive in New Age, I was confirmed when I was 16 years old because my parents insisted. It is not because they were concerned about me being a “soldier for Christ” and I gave in not because I was convinced about practicing the Catholic religion, it was just another opportunity for my family to get together and have a party, and I was Ok with that.
I’m sad to remember that I slept through all the celebration and barely remember when I was standing in front of the Bishop. I didn’t feel anything particular that day. I was more involved in filling the need for God in my life with New Age stuff that trying to live my own faith.
This lasted until 2 days before my 20th birthday, when I went to a 2 day retreat with a Charismatic community in my hometown.
I didn’t know much about my faith. Was it because I had a poor catechesis? Was it because I was not living with the most practicing/church going family? Whatever it was, I know that participating in that 2-day retreat saved my life.
I was so empty prior to that experience, I was so thirsty for God and was looking for Him in the wrong places. One day in March of 1993 I felt I couldn’t take anymore the emptiness, the lonesomeness inside of me and I thought about taking my own life by throwing myself to the subway rails. I was going to materialize this wish of mine. I remember that I though “whether I live or die does not make any difference. Nobody will care”. When I saw the subway approaching and I was ready to jump, a sudden fear got a hold of me and left me shaky. Instead of going to class as I was supposed to, I went to visit a friend of mine. I never told her why I was crying so desperately, I cried until I had no more tears. Poor thing was so preoccupied that she did the only thing she knew could help me: she took me to my first Mass in a Charismatic community that day.
I was hooked! The music, the praising, the joy of the people around me. I started going to Mass several times during the week and by August I was attending my first 2-day retreat. On August 15th, 1993 (the last day of the retreat), at 4:30PM my life changed dramatically.
Before that day I had been kind of getting back in touch with the faith of my childhood. But that day! Oh boy! It was the real deal!
It was the time for prayer for the “renewal” in the Spirit. I was prayed over by two lay people from the community. I felt a breeze sweeping through me from above and all of a sudden my body felt weightless. I cried, I prayed, I laughed. I had never ever felt like that before.
I noticed immediately a change in my personal prayer, I started reading and praying with my Bible, I learned the Rosary, I got me a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to start learning more about my faith, I got involved in the community, I was bold to explain and defend my faith.
Almost 18 years had passed since that glorious day, and I can testify the good fruits this experience has brought into my life. I no longer participate in a Charismatic community. Actually I’m more on the conservative side now and prefer more solemn celebrations, but this experience allowed me to value my Catholic faith even more, and I don’t need to be in a Charismatic meeting or Mass to feel the Holy Spirit working in my life. But, let’s say it, hadn’t been for that experience of renewal in the Holy Spirit, I don’t know where would I be now.
po18guy
Well-known member
Praise God! You have just shown us the mercy and love of God in your life. Although many continue to participate in the Charismatic Renewal (a perfect choice for them), many of us realize that once may be enough. Once the gifts are released, we are changed. And, once we put hand to plow, there is no looking back. Amen!
P
poplove1980
Guest
Once I received a holy spirit that dwells inside me, is it difficult for me to receive an another holy spirit agian? Because current holy spirit is quite violent and evil, he wouldn’t let me to receive a holy spirit completely. If a holy spirit bothers too much about receiving an another holy spirit, am I difficult to receive the new holy spirit? My life becomes difficult because of current holy spirit
S
Samson01
Guest
Sounds like you are a bit confused. I won’t be drawn in to rash judgement, esp. on this subject. I suggest you see a Priest with your concern. If you are struggling a lot with impaired reason, go to a Dr. ASAP. Take care, Samson.
- Status