Baptism of babies & infants

[kcmekim]

Dude, (and I mean that only in the most cool sense of the term), you, for all intents and purposes, are preaching a different gospel here. Why are you pounding on us, and not preaching to the unconverted? That tells us an awful lot about what you actually believe.

OK.

1. Please give one example of me trying to present the Gospel at all since I’ve been here.
2. Please explain how the Gospel that I do preach, when I actually do preach the Gospel, meets the Biblical standard of “another Gospel”.

 

[po18guy]

I’m going to assume you mean “Baptist Distinctives”. The fact that you don’t know what they’re called is a good sign that you probably don’t know what you’re talking about.

My beard being officially plucked by a “brother” in Christ, I shall point out that what they are called matters not one whit. The fact that they have zero authority behind them, and a date of inception that is nearly 1600 years beyond the Apostles matters a lot. The fact that such beliefs suddenly popped up in Christianity at such a late date matters a lot. The fact that they are based on the man-made non-foundation of sola scriptura matters a lot. The fact that they are not absolutely binding on the admittedly widely varied Baptist world matters a lot. The fact that other denominations of Baptists have the authority to alter or change them into their own versions matters a lot. The fact that they are not consistent with the long-held readings of scripture matters a lot. The fact that you and I can come up with just as many “Distinctives” matters a lot. The only “Distinctive” thing that I see is that their foundation is sand. May God bless their souls, and raise them on the last day, but they had no Apostolic authority to even set pen to paper.

So, where’s the love, Bro"???

Love calls you to the fulness of truth, which is in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church funded by Jesus Christ upon the Apostle Peter - unless you have a problem with denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Jesus all the way. If one is comfortable with all of his faith’s teachings, they cannot be the truth.

You came to a Catholic site. You are going to receive industrial strength Catholicism.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Water and the SPIRIT. Jesus didn’t way we are born from above through water and a shout! The Spirit. Confirmation, a Catholic Sacrament as described in Acts 8:16-17. And, parents cannot make any decision for a child? How did an 8 day old child make the decision to be circumcised under the law? The parents made it. The loving relationship of a parent for their child is the same as the loving relationship the friends had for the paralytic who was healed in Mark 2:4 and Luke 5:19. Scripture does not say that the paralytic made any call, or repentance, yet his sins were forgiven and his paralysis healed. This is how God works. You are treating the bible like a law that specifies exactly how everything must be done - except the bible is inadequate for that purpose, being incomplete as it tells you it is.Ed, it is right there on the page of the bible. It is an unstable perspn who twists it to mean something else 2 Peter 3:16.You must be making this up! Why be baptized then? “Righteousness” is not symbolic, it is substantive. A symbolic baptism is an affront to God. It’s not in the bible what you are saying. Are you adding to scripture?Where does it say this? It does not.To shed His blood and pay for our sins and make Baptism the means for entry into His Church, which is His Sacred Body on earth. It is the normative means of salvation. Tell us what else Jesus said or taught that was a symbol and had no other meaning.You are kidding?!?Ed, your beliefs are a few hundred years old, max. THAT is a different gospel. Christians must reject it. Period.

If my beliefs, as say say. are hundred years old, they then must be correct because you claim that yours are 2,000 years old. Correct?
Quote by ED::
Acts 2:38 is always being quoted that baptism forgives sins. You can’t jerk one verse out of it’s context and get a true meaning.

Ed, it is right there on the page of the bible. It is an unstable perspn who twists it to mean something else 2 Peter 3:16. AND MY RESPONSE TO YOU IS, 1Cor 2:15, BUT THE SPIRITUAL MAN HAS INSIGHT INTO EVERYTHING, AND THAT BOTHERS AND BAFFLES THE MAN OF THE WORLD.“

Quote by ED:
v37 says they were cut to heart by the message (of the cross) that Peter preached. v41 those who accepted that message were baptized. In simple English they believed on Jesus to forgive their sins not the water in baptism.

You must be making this up! Why be baptized then? “Righteousness” is not symbolic, it is substantive. A symbolic baptism is an affront to God. I’M NOT MAKING ANYTHING UP. YOU DON’T GET RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM WATER BAPTISM. 2 Cor.5:21, FOR HE (GOD) HATH MADE HIM (CHRIST) TO BE SIN FOR US, WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM.

Quote by ED:
In Acts 10:43, "All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in HIM, receives FORGIVENESS of sins through His name. v44 'While Peter was still speaking these words, the HOLY SPIRIT came on all who heard the MESSAGE.

It’s not in the bible what you are saying. Are you adding to scripture? IT MOST CERTAINLY IS IN THE BIBLE! I COPIED ACTS 10:43-44, WORD FOR WORD EXACTLY AS IT APPEARS IN THE BIBLE. DON’T YOU READ THE BIBLE?

Quote by ED:
Cornelius and all present had their sins forgiven, received the Holy Spirit and became born again WITHOUT baptism. Where they later baptized? Yes! but not for the reason you that think to have their sins forgiven, they did it as an act of repentance as God commands.

Where does it say this? It does not. MAYBE YOU MISSED IT, IT’S THERE! THERE IS ONLY ONE STORY ABOUT CORNELIUS YOU FIND IT SO THAT YOU MAY BETTER REMEMBER IT! ED O.

 

[po18guy]

IT MOST CERTAINLY IS IN THE BIBLE! I COPIED ACTS 10:43-44, WORD FOR WORD EXACTLY AS IT APPEARS IN THE BIBLE. DON’T YOU READ THE BIBLE?

Ed, there is key on the left center of your keyboard. It is called “caps lock”. Try it and see what it does. So, why do you believe that only your interpretation of the bible is true? Where does it say in the BIBLE that how Ed reads it is the true way?

Ed, I read the bible regularly. I just don’t twist its meaning until I find something I agree with. That’s all.

It’s been fun Ed, but we’re speaking different languages. Your time would be much better spent preaching to the unconverted. The fact that you are not tells us what you think of the Catholic Church. I assure you that you are wasting your time trying to convert the converted. Catholics are “saved”, have been “born again”, and love the Lord Jesus. Knowing this, what is your real purpose here? Tell the truth. The Lord is judging your response.

 

[placido]

OK.

1. Please give one example of me trying to present the Gospel at all since I’ve been here.
2. Please explain how the Gospel that I do preach, when I actually do preach the Gospel, meets the Biblical standard of “another Gospel”.

I am still waiting for your confession. You falsified what I said, disappeared for a while and came back to continue as if nothing happened. Is that how Chirstians are supposed to behave?

placido

 

[Jimmy_B]

The most prominent objection I have seen is based on Mark 16:16: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” From this, advocates of believer’s baptism understand Jesus to mean that belief in Christ must precede baptism for the sacrament to be valid.

Our Father’s Beautiful Gifts to Us – Baptism

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We as Roman Catholics are very fortunate in having the Sacraments. The Sacraments of the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church are beautiful, awesome gifts of Love, given to us by our Father, God.​

The Sacraments allow us to experience God’s love and to unite with Him. There are Seven important gifts or Sacraments and they are

• Baptism,
• the Eucharist,
• Confirmation,
• Reconciliation and Penance also called “confession”,
• Anointing of the Sick (formerly known as Extreme Unction),
• Marriage (Holy Matrimony)
• **Holy Orders. **
  +=
  The Sacrament of Baptism, specifically Infant Baptism, has replaced the Jewish tradition of infant circumcision (Colossians 2:11-12).
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  Matthew 3:13-17 (Jesus’ Baptism) “Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?” Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then He allowed him. After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. In addition, a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
  =
  Here, Jesus is giving us another opportunity to learn from His perfect example.
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  Mark 10:14 *“*When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
  =
  Here we see that children are not excluded from the “body of Christ” or the Christian Family.
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  Luke18:15-16 “People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. Jesus, however, called the children to himself and said, "Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.”
  =
  Children are not denied “the Kingdom of God”…
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  Acts 16:15 *“*After she and her household had been baptized, she offered us an invitation, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my home,” and she prevailed on us."
  =
  If this were a typical Jewish family of the time, one would expect that “her household”, would include her children. Additionally, if she were simply referring to her husband here, one would expect her to ask Jesus to join “her and her husband” and not “her household”. Obviously this is an example where Jesus and the Apostles, Baptized children.
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  ”Acts 16:33 “He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once.
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  Once again, much like Acts 16:15, we can expect; “his family”, to include children.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Catechism of the Catholic Church​

THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), 4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism, we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."51215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."71216 "This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, “the true light that enlightens every man,” the person baptized has been “enlightened,” he becomes a “son of light,” indeed, he becomes “light” himself: 9Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.
*=

 

[Jimmy_B]

There has been much more written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the importance of Baptism. I have included a very small portion here. I recommend that you read this entire section on “Baptism”.​

“The gateway to life in the Spirit”… “Through Baptism we are freed from sin”…​

We become members of Christ and we are incorporated into the Christ’s Church through Baptism. Baptism is person’s first contact with God. It is the first opportunity we have in our life to truly experience God’s love and do that which is pleasing to God, and for many, perform our first act of performing “good works” as a Christian. Obviously, when infants are baptized, their parents act of “good Works”.​

“Good Works” is doing those things, which are pleasing to God. We know from Matthew 3:13-17, that Baptism is 'pleasing to God".​

When we are baptized. “Baptism” is when we become a Christian. It is at this point in our lives when,”we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church”. Baptism is “the gateway to life in the Spirit”. Baptism opens the “gate”, so that we may experience the other Sacraments or other “gifts of love” from God.​

As with all the other Sacraments, the Sacrament of Baptism is a gift of Love. God loves all of us and He has an unending, complete desire to dwell within us. God is always with his children, present in everyone’s Soul.​

Baptism is a gift of love from God. Baptism is also a gift of love from God’s Church; the Priest performing the Baptism; the Baptized infant’s Parents, Godparents, and all those present, witnessing this awesome event and special moment in our early life.​

At the moment of our Baptism, there is a fantastic moment of immense love, focused on you by people who love you. Additionally, this is a moment of Grace for your parent’s, who by their actions, demonstrate their love not only for you but also for Christ and His Church.​

Through the Sacrament of (infant) Baptism, your parents promise to raise you, to know, love and obey God.​

Just imagine how much love was directed towards you on the day of your Baptism.​

When we as parents baptize our children, we invited God into our child’s life and into our lives. God loves us and wants us to invite him our lives and into our homes. We accomplish this through the Sacrament of Baptism.​

Knowing all this, why would anyone not want to be inviting to God? Why would anyone want to deny or delay a precious baby’s Baptism? Why would anyone want to keep their child from their first contact with God? Why would anyone want to keep his or her child from becoming a Christian?​

When were you Baptized? I was baptized when I was ten days old and I have thanked my mother on several occasions for having me baptized as an infant (newborn) baby. I thank her because I know she had I Baptized, because she loved me.​

Have you ever thanked your mother or father for having you baptized? You should, Infant Baptism is the greatest gift you have ever received from your parent’s. You could not have been baptized as an infant if your parents did not love you and make the necessary arrangements to have you Baptized.​

For non-Catholic Christians who don’t understand the absolute need of Infant Baptism or believe one should be at the “age of reasoning” prior to being Baptized, the Sacrament of Confirmation should take care of this concern.​

Once a person has already received the Sacrament of Baptism, They then, as a child who is around ten or eleven years old, attend “First Communion” classes (2-3 years), culminating in their first Confession (Penance and Reconciliation) and their First Holy Communion (Eucharist).​

They will then later attend Conformation Classes (2-3 years) and this usually occurs when a child is 14-15 years of age, or the “age of reasoning”.​

Additionally, there is Adult Conformation courses and RCIA classes for adults wishing to become Catholics. After completing RCIA, a person can receive all four of these Sacraments, starting usually in August or September and finishing when they complete their first Confession on Good Friday and culminating with their Baptism (*if not already Baptized) “First Communion” and Conformation on Easter Sunday.​

The Catholic Church considers many Non-Catholic Christian Baptism’s to be valid.
The Sacrament of Confirmation is a time when a young person or an adult, for those completing adult conformation, are reminded of, and fully understands and appreciates their Infant Baptism.​

The Sacrament of Confirmation is the re-affirmation of our Infant Baptism.​

Finally, Remember “Sacraments” are so named because they are “Sacred”. God’s Church and his humble servants are the protectors of the Holy Sacraments and that which is sacred.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Ed, there is key on the left center of your keyboard. It is called “caps lock”. Try it and see what it does. So, why do you believe that only your interpretation of the bible is true? Where does it say in the BIBLE that how Ed reads it is the true way?

Ed, I read the bible regularly. I just don’t twist its meaning until I find something I agree with. That’s all.

It’s been fun Ed, but we’re speaking different languages. Your time would be much better spent preaching to the unconverted. The fact that you are not tells us what you think of the Catholic Church. I assure you that you are wasting your time trying to convert the converted. Catholics are “saved”, have been “born again”, and love the Lord Jesus. Knowing this, what is your real purpose here? Tell the truth. The Lord is judging your response.

Hi po18guy, thanks for your TIRADE reply. Let’s get it straight. On post 726 I quoted this:

ED’s Quote:
In Acts 10:43, "All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in HIM, receives FORGIVENESS of sins through His name. v44 'While Peter was still speaking these words, the HOLY SPIRIT came on all who heard the MESSAGE.

PO18GUY response: It’s not in the bible what you are saying. Are you adding to scripture?

Ed’s rebuttle on post 770: IT MOST CERTAINLY IS IN THE BIBLE! I COPIED ACTS 10:43-44, WORD FOR WORD EXACTLY AS IT APPEARS IN THE BIBLE. DON’T YOU READ THE BIBLE?

Po18guy response on post 771: Ed, there is key on the left center of your keyboard. It is called “caps lock”. Try it and see what it does. So, why do you believe that only your interpretation of the bible is true? Where does it say in the BIBLE that how Ed reads it is the true way?
Ed, I read the bible regularly. I just don’t twist its meaning until I find something I agree with. That’s all.
It’s been fun Ed, but we’re speaking different languages. Your time would be much better spent preaching to the unconverted. The fact that you are not tells us what you think of the Catholic Church. I assure you that you are wasting your time trying to convert the converted. Catholics are “saved”, have been “born again”, and love the Lord Jesus. Knowing this, what is your real purpose here? Tell the truth. The Lord is judging your response

ED’s rebuttle: Why are you dancing around the truth? You accused me of adding to the Scriptures in Acts 10:43-44 and when I caught you in an UNTRUTH and told you that I copied those verses word for word from the Bible (which meant that I could not have added anything to the Scriptures) in order now for you to save face, you switch the subject to my PERSONAL interpretation. The issue at hand is that you accused me of adding to Scripture which I did NOT and it has nothing to do with my interpretation. Rather than trying to send me elsewhere, why aren’t you man enough and admit that you made a MISTAKE and apologize. Yes! the Lord certainly is watching and judging but I haven’t sinned. Maybe you ought to reconsider your statement and apply it to yourself. ED O.

 

[tweetymom]

Ed Amen amen I say to you and you were not misquoting Scripture. sometim,es people don’t like to admit they are wrong and I know if you were you would admit it:thumbsup:

 

[tweetymom]

Ed Amen amen I say to you and you were not misquoting Scripture. sometim,es people don’t like to admit they are wrong and I know if you were you would admit it:thumbsup:

Acts:43&44 To him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosever believeth in Hism shall receive remission of sin. 44 While yet Peter yet spake these words the Holy Ghost fell on them which heard the word.

 

[po18guy]

1. Please give one example of me trying to present the Gospel at all since I’ve been here.

Decrying the Baptism of the young, contrary to the original and authoritative interpretation of scripture as well as the history of the Church from day one - Baptism being the first physical/spiritual act of initiation into Christ’s Church.

1. Please explain how the Gospel that I do preach, when I actually do preach the Gospel, meets the Biblical standard of “another Gospel”.

The “bible alone” gospel is, indeed another gospel, as it denies the authority of the Church that Christ founded; it denies the Apostolic tradition (which produced both Luke and Acts!); it diminishes or denies that the Holy Spirit was given to a Church, and not a bible.

From your viewpoint, I sincerely doubt that you see this. The bible is no authority. It testifies to authority, but has none of its own. Words (and that’s all the bible is without proper interpretation), can be twisted to mean anything. Satan quoted scripture, but had no authority to do so. The Aryan Nations’ leaders quote scripture constantly to support racism and hatred. They quote directly form the bible! You might say that these examples are obvious abuses. Yes, but not to all, for both the evil one and the Aryan Nations have followers.

Remember also that the serpent is the most subtle of the creatures. He does not mislead with gross error, but with tiny, almost imperceptible lies. God’s word needs proper interpretation.

 

[tweetymom]

Decrying the Baptism of the young, contrary to scriptural record and the history of the Church. Baptism being the first physical/spiritual act of initiation into Christ’s Church.The “bible alone” gospel is, indeed another gospel, as it denies the authority of the Church that Christ founded; it denies the Apostolic tradition (which produced both Luke and Acts!); it diminishes or denies that the Holy Spirit was given to a Church, and not a bible.

From your viewpoint, I sincerely doubt that you see this. The bible is no authority. It testifies to authority, but has none of its own. Words (and that’s all the bible is without proper interpretation), can be twisted to mean anything. Satan quoted scripture, but had no authority to do so. The Aryan Nations leaders quote scripture constantly to support racism and hatred. They quote directly form the bible! You might say that these examples are obvious abuses. Yes, but not to all, for both the evil one and the Aryan Nations have followers.

Remember that the serpent is the most subtle of the creatures. He does not mislead with gross error, but with tiny, almost imperceptible lies. God’s word needs proper interpretation.

Why don’t you read 11tim 3:16:shrug:

 

[po18guy]

Why don’t you read 11tim 3:16:shrug:

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)

16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[a] appeared in a body,**
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
**

 

[tweetymom]

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)

16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[a] appeared in a body,**
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
**

that was 11 Timothy3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction ,and for instruction un righteous. So according to this scripture all I need for correction is the scriptures:thumbsup:

 

[po18guy]

EdOsiecki:
Tirade? I was not SCREAMING IN CAPS like someone who shall remain nameless. You do know that, per internet protocol, the use of capitalized letters amounts to shouting? I do sometimes capitalize BIBLE, but only for literary effect, and then only under the authority of artistic license.

Ed, my point is that scripture needs proper interpretation. You and I simply disagree on the interpretation of scripture. You seem to be 100% convinced that only your interpretation is correct. I have no interpretation of my own. I rely on the Church to interpret, since the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15.

Please answer my question as to why you are here and what you are trying to accomplish. I have told you that Catholics are saved, born again and love the Lord Jesus. How on earth could you, or any Christian have a problem with this?

 

[tweetymom]

Tirade? I was not SCREAMING IN CAPS like someone who shall remain nameless. You do know that, per internet protocol, the use of capitalized letters amounts to shouting? I do sometimes capitalize BIBLE, but only for literary effect, and then only under the authority of artistic license.

Ed, my point is that scripture needs proper interpretation. You and I simply disagree on the interpretation of scripture. You seem to be 100% convinced that only your interpretation is correct. I have no interpretation of my own. I rely on the Church to interpret, since the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15.

Please answer my question as to why you are here and what you are trying to accomplish. I have told you that Catholics are saved, born again and love the Lord Jesus. How on earth could you, or any Christian have a problem with this?

Did you read 2 tim 3:16

 

[po18guy]

ED’s rebuttle: Why are you dancing around the truth? You accused me of adding to the Scriptures in Acts 10:43-44 and when I caught you in an UNTRUTH and told you that I copied those verses word for word from the Bible (which meant that I could not have added anything to the Scriptures) in order now for you to save face, you switch the subject to my PERSONAL interpretation.

Ed, I should have made it more obvious that I asked if you were adding to scripture. Not words, but the meaning of those words. Do you understand what I am trying to tell you?

 

[po18guy]

Did you read 2 tim 3:16

Many times. Why?

 

[po18guy]

that was 11 Timothy3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction ,and for instruction un righteous. So according to this scripture all I need for correction is the scriptures:thumbsup:

Apparently, you are a Protestant, since you quote from the Protestant King James Bible, accept and preach the Protestant version of scripture, and support Protestant members against Catholic members. Yet, your religion is listed as “catholic”. There is a dichotomy here. Can you explain. please?