Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

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I cannot find any Church teaching on the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” that my charismatic group uses. What exactly does this mean?

Since according to our catechism, we become temples of the Holy Spirit during the sacraments of initiation such as baptism
“Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte ‘a new creature’, an adopted son of God, who has become a ‘partaker of the divine nature,’ member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit. CCC1265
 
They may just be refering to the fact the we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism. If not, than I don’t know.
 
From Fr William G. Most’s Errors in Charismatic



In a Catholic Team Manual, Finding New Life in the Spirit, p.25 the** candidate is instructed to say, after some preparation: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”

This is contrary to Vatican II. In On the Church §12 the Council distinguishes ordinary and extraordinary charisms: “The extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly asked for, nor should the fruits of apostolic works be presumptuously expected from them; but the judgment of their genuine character and the ordered exercise of them pertains to those who preside in the Church…”**


Some charismatics claim what they have is merely the activation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which does not happen in the usual Catholic. They call this Baptism in the Spirit. This too is a great error. All receive these Gifts along with sanctifying grace, and they have an increase at Confirmation and other times. But normally they do not show clear and overt effects until one is far advanced in the spiritual life - earlier, there may be latent effects. Still further, the effects of these Gifts are not the miraculous phenomena - that would be to confuse the sanctifying and the charismatic categories. Some also tend to be fundamentalistic in understanding Scripture.

Many charismatics today are trying to say all Catholics must be charismatic,** that “baptism in the spirit” was routine in the Patristic age**. We find this clearly in a booklet, Fanning the Flame, by Kilian Mc Donnell (Liturgical Press,1991). He cites a few patristic texts to try to show these phenomena were routine in the patristic age. But the texts given are few, just three are given: Fairly clear are those of Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. But the booklet admits on p.18 that: “Both Basil of Caesarea… and Gregory Nazianzus… situate the prophetic charisms within the Christian initiation, though they are more reserved in their regard than Paul.” No quotes are given. Then we see a remarkable admission on St. John Chrysostom, quoted on the same page, “Chrysostom complained, however ‘the charisms are long gone.’” St. Augustine, in City of God (21.5), has to argue strongly that miracles are possible, against those in his day who denied the possibility. He says that if they want to say the Apostles converted the world without any miracles - that would be a great miracle. If there were miraculous gifts commonly around, Augustine would have merely pointed to them. But he did not.

Still further, historically. The miraculous gifts were common in Paul’s day, but at least by the middle of the next century became scarce in the mainline Church, but common in heretical groups. The present movement started in 1901 among Protestants. By 1925 there were about 38 denominations in the U.S. alone. Some decades later, in 1966. some Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestants, asked that the Protestants lay hands on them, to receive tongues - for tongues were supposed to be the sign that one had been baptized in the Spirit.
 
My fundamentalist aunt and uncle (who left the faith a few years ago when he had a profound conversion experience at a baptist church she’d been attending) are really into the charasmatic gifts. They, too, think everyone should seek them and see them as the pinnacle of growth in the Lord. They keep praying for us to receive our “prayer language” and encouraging us to pray for the gifts (healing, tongues, prophecy, etc.). I have shown some curiosity so they are wondering if I want to pray with them for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I want to be faithful and know that, if anything, this would just be, as Alex Jones says, a big conversion experience if it happened. Am I wrong or going against my Catholic faith to pray with them? Should I refuse? I think I am somehow seeking this “cloud 9” experience that people seem to have. However I am fully dedicated to the Lord and am wondering if I need to seek these charasmatic gifts at all? Thanks!
 
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KathieAnn:
My fundamentalist aunt and uncle (who left the faith a few years ago when he had a profound conversion experience at a baptist church she’d been attending) are really into the charasmatic gifts. They, too, think everyone should seek them and see them as the pinnacle of growth in the Lord. They keep praying for us to receive our “prayer language” and encouraging us to pray for the gifts (healing, tongues, prophecy, etc.). I have shown some curiosity so they are wondering if I want to pray with them for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I want to be faithful and know that, if anything, this would just be, as Alex Jones says, a big conversion experience if it happened. Am I wrong or going against my Catholic faith to pray with them? Should I refuse? I think I am somehow seeking this “cloud 9” experience that people seem to have. However I am fully dedicated to the Lord and am wondering if I need to seek these charasmatic gifts at all? Thanks!
Do not force yourselves to ask for the gift (like most Charismatics). Just say to the lord to give whatever he wants. He knows better.

I think Fr Most (a very productive theologians with writings all over EWTN.com library) summed it up really well. Just read his article and learn about Charismatic.
 
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beng:
Do not force yourselves to ask for the gift (like most Charismatics). Just say to the lord to give whatever he wants. He knows better.

I think Fr Most (a very productive theologians with writings all over EWTN.com library) summed it up really well. Just read his article and learn about Charismatic.
Beng, I guess we can take Gods Word and tear it out of the Bible. I bet your bible is real thin Beng. So much for ask and it will be given unto you. Yes , the Lord knows what you want and need, but I also know the Lord wants us to come to Him asking for whatever we want. Thats the way He wants it,not your way. Our Lord does not want you to be ignorant of the gifts He has in store for you. Katie I recommend you seek the Lord with an open and wanting heart. He knows the desires of your heart. God Bless.
 
When we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, do we not receive all the grace available according to our disposition? I know we receive the Holy Spirit at our confirmation. This is part of the sacramental life of the church.

Call it “baptism of the Holy Spirit”, “baptism fullness of the Holy Spirit” or “Kumbayah”. Those who participate and teach these things must be careful not to elevate any pray or private devotion to the level of an eighth sacrament.

No, this is not a movement that is for all Catholics or will make any individual any “holier” than the elder lady that goes to daily Mass and says her rosary every day.

They probably will feel better, though.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Beng, I guess we can take Gods Word and tear it out of the Bible. I bet your bible is real thin Beng. So much for ask and it will be given unto you. Yes , the Lord knows what you want and need, but I also know the Lord wants us to come to Him asking for whatever we want. Thats the way He wants it,not your way. Our Lord does not want you to be ignorant of the gifts He has in store for you. Katie I recommend you seek the Lord with an open and wanting heart. He knows the desires of your heart. God Bless.
Read

Do not force yourselves to ask for the gift (like most Charismatics). Just say to the lord to give whatever he wants. He knows better.

What is with you charismatic?

So, did you do what I told you to? Pray to the lord about fake tongue and pray so that your eyes are open on 1Cor 14:27-28?
 
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pnewton:
Call it “baptism of the Holy Spirit”, “baptism fullness of the Holy Spirit” or “Kumbayah”. Those who participate and teach these things must be careful not to elevate any pray or private devotion to the level of an eighth sacrament.
If this is different than water baptism at the baptismal pond, then it is not legit.
No, this is not a movement that is for all Catholics or will make any individual any “holier” than the elder lady that goes to daily Mass and says her rosary every day.
“this is not for every catholics” is usually a sign that some people would buy all those sugar coated and theologically incorrect concept and some more rational people won’t
 
beng,

How can you judge whether someone’s experience is fake or genuine? You are really hung up on harassing people who have experienced tongues (based on your posts on all the threads related to this matter) and yet you have not responded to my post where I asked you to provide documentation where the Church has denounced the Charismatic Renewal or tongues. You keep referring to YOUR understanding of I Cor 14:27-28. If that is your opinion, fine, but don’t try to elevate to the level of Church teaching unless you can back it up.
 
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JimO:
beng,

How can you judge whether someone’s experience is fake or genuine?
Because we believe the power of sacrament.

Or do you want to seperate Baptism of Holy Spirit and Water Baptism?

Then you will be making one more theological error.
You are really hung up on harassing people who have experienced tongues (based on your posts on all the threads related to this matter) and yet you have not responded to my post where I asked you to provide documentation where the Church has denounced the Charismatic Renewal or tongues.
I gave you 1Cor 14:27-28
You keep referring to YOUR understanding of I Cor 14:27-28. If that is your opinion, fine, but don’t try to elevate to the level of Church teaching unless you can back it up.
The LITERAL meaning of 1Cor 14:27-28 alreaqdy enough to show the fakeness of most charismatic.

Do you think that for every single verse we need to have the magisterium’s interpretation?

Until you can supply me with correct alternative interpretation, I would say that the literal interpretation is the best in hammering out fake tongues in charismatic.
 
beng said:
From Fr William G. Most’s Errors in Charismatic



In a Catholic Team Manual, Finding New Life in the Spirit, p.25 the** candidate is instructed to say, after some preparation: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”

This is contrary to Vatican II. In On the Church §12 the Council distinguishes ordinary and extraordinary charisms: “The extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly asked for, nor should the fruits of apostolic works be presumptuously expected from them; but the judgment of their genuine character and the ordered exercise of them pertains to those who preside in the Church…”**


Some charismatics claim what they have is merely the activation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which does not happen in the usual Catholic. They call this Baptism in the Spirit. This too is a great error. All receive these Gifts along with sanctifying grace, and they have an increase at Confirmation and other times. But normally they do not show clear and overt effects until one is far advanced in the spiritual life - earlier, there may be latent effects. Still further, the effects of these Gifts are not the miraculous phenomena - that would be to confuse the sanctifying and the charismatic categories. Some also tend to be fundamentalistic in understanding Scripture.

Many charismatics today are trying to say all Catholics must be charismatic,** that “baptism in the spirit” was routine in the Patristic age**. We find this clearly in a booklet, Fanning the Flame, by Kilian Mc Donnell (Liturgical Press,1991). He cites a few patristic texts to try to show these phenomena were routine in the patristic age. But the texts given are few, just three are given: Fairly clear are those of Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. But the booklet admits on p.18 that: “Both Basil of Caesarea… and Gregory Nazianzus… situate the prophetic charisms within the Christian initiation, though they are more reserved in their regard than Paul.” No quotes are given. Then we see a remarkable admission on St. John Chrysostom, quoted on the same page, “Chrysostom complained, however ‘the charisms are long gone.’” St. Augustine, in City of God (21.5), has to argue strongly that miracles are possible, against those in his day who denied the possibility. He says that if they want to say the Apostles converted the world without any miracles - that would be a great miracle. If there were miraculous gifts commonly around, Augustine would have merely pointed to them. But he did not.

Still further, historically. The miraculous gifts were common in Paul’s day, but at least by the middle of the next century became scarce in the mainline Church, but common in heretical groups. The present movement started in 1901 among Protestants. By 1925 there were about 38 denominations in the U.S. alone. Some decades later, in 1966. some Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestants, asked that the Protestants lay hands on them, to receive tongues - for tongues were supposed to be the sign that one had been baptized in the Spirit.

Beng, Baptism in the Holy spirit is great error according to you.WOW. Again we take the Word of God and tear another page out of Gods Word. John the baptist said I will baptise you in water, but there is one Greater who will baptise you in the Holy Spirit.[Baptism of the Holy Spirit].Acts 19. v 2-6. Did you recieve the Holy Spirit when you became believers? They answered,We have not so much as heard that there is a Holy Spirit. Well, How were you baptised?. They replied,With the baptism of John. Paul then explained,Johns baptism was a baptism of repentence. He used to tell the people about the one who would come after him in whom they were to believe, that is Jesus. When they heard this ,they were baptised in the name of the lord Jesus. As Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came down on them and the began to speak in tongues and to utter prophecies. { THIS IS THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD] 👍
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Beng, Baptism in the Holy spirit is great error according to you.WOW. Again we take the Word of God and tear another page out of Gods Word. John the baptist said I will baptise you in water, but there is one Greater who will baptise you in the Holy Spirit.[Baptism of the Holy Spirit].Acts 19. v 2-6. Did you recieve the Holy Spirit when you became believers? They answered,We have not so much as heard that there is a Holy Spirit. Well, How were you baptised?. They replied,With the baptism of John. Paul then explained,Johns baptism was a baptism of repentence. He used to tell the people about the one who would come after him in whom they were to believe, that is Jesus. When they heard this ,they were baptised in the name of the lord Jesus. As Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came down on them and the began to speak in tongues and to utter prophecies. { THIS IS THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD] 👍
This show the error of your theology.

Do you think that a simple baptism perform by priest during Easter is the same as baptism of repentance performed by John the Baptist?

Do you think think that baptism of water performed by the same priest in the same Easter doesn’t have the baptism in the holy spirit characteristics?

Boy, this should be fun.
 
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beng:
This show the error of your theology.

Do you think that a simple baptism perform by priest during Easter is the same as baptism of repentance performed by John the Baptist?

Do you think think that baptism of water performed by the same priest in the same Easter doesn’t have the baptism in the holy spirit characteristics?

Boy, this should be fun.
Beng, You might want to start a new topic on this for we will be going off this patricular topic. 👍
 
beng,

I happen to agree with you on one point. We do receive the Holy Spirit in baptism. There is no separate baptism. And, I am sorry if I misrepresented any of your statements. I did not intend to suggest that you called the Charismatic Renewal intrinsically evil. However, if it was as full of error as you suggest, it would have to be evil.

You did state that 99% of tongues are fake. Where did you get that statistic? In the same way that you cannot judge a person’s intentions, you can’t just throw out numbers without some factual basis. Sure, it’s fine to point out when someone steals, provided you have witnessed the theft or have reliable evidence indicating the person is a thief. But, this forum is for the respectful discussion of the faith and not the place to make unsubstantiated accusations.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Beng, You might want to start a new topic on this for we will be going off this patricular topic. 👍
Second thought ,we would not really be off track. Well any ways, According to the Word of God we are baptised by water and spirit. Water representing cleansing and repentence. Spirit representing Jesus Christ precious blood. Without the water and the blood we cannot be saved. :confused:
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Second thought ,we would not really be off track. Well any ways, According to the Word of God we are baptised by water and spirit. Water representing cleansing and repentence. Spirit representing Jesus Christ precious blood. Without the water and the blood we cannot be saved. :confused:
What you said here is unclear. So just answer my questions above.
 
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beng:
What you said here is unclear. So just answer my questions above.
Beng ,Im not speaking in tongues. What part do you not understand what I said? :confused:
 
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JimO:
However, if it was as full of error as you suggest, it would have to be evil.
Some probably. But most is just human weakness.
You did state that 99% of tongues are fake. Where did you get that statistic?
I have addressed this issue.

The 99% is an arbitrary number I gave to indicate how woefully erroneous charismatic is (Tongues, laying of hands, sugar coated prayer and sermon, baptism of the Holy Spirit, slain in the spirit etc)

Knowing the error is so prevalent, I am comfortable to give the 99% number.
In the same way that you cannot judge a person’s intentions, you can’t just throw out numbers without some factual basis.
I have been to numerous charismatic prayer meetings. I want to convert this people.

The number seems to be very representative. I never heard any interpretation in any charismatic gathering.
Sure, it’s fine to point out when someone steals, provided you have witnessed the theft or have reliable evidence indicating the person is a thief. But, this forum is for the respectful discussion of the faith and not the place to make unsubstantiated accusations.
Those who feel accused are free to provide their own “interpreters” to refute what I’ve said. I will then contact this person and other who claim to be interpreter so I could confirm it.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Beng ,Im not speaking in tongues. What part do you not understand what I said? :confused:
Is that a “yes” and a “Yes”

a “Yes” and “no”

a “no” and “yes”

or a “no” and “no”

??
 
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