Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[agname]

snuffy:

Wow!!
I’m Catholic and I’ve been baptized by the Holy Spirit…Ha! I’ve got it all. Praise God. These words are mine but they are also the words used by Alex Jones (a former Protestant minister, now Catholic)…
I also have the gift of tongues to Praise God in the highest. I’ve personally never received messages in tongues, just have the gift of Praise. (ohh sooo bad)…
The prayer group I belong to are beautiful people…who are striving for holiness. (and this in wrong)??
You now better than the Pope???
God wants us to be open to ALL the gifts he has for us…And I thank Him for allowing me to be open to the Holy Spirit…

My arguement is that alot of people just don’t understand who the Holy Spirit…Let me tell you…I’ve for many years belong to a little Church in the country…Well there are 3 of us in the Parish that have been baptized by the Holy Spirit…And regretfully I say…that the 3 of us are soooooo into the Mass, and Praise Our Lord all the way through…Well let me say…we have more respect and reverence in our little finger…than the rest of the 100 people or so who attend. So we’re wrong and all you pompous people who are in another world at Mass, are right…Afraid not.
Us charismatics (that I know) would and HAVE sat through Charismatic Masses for 3 hrs… and loved every minute of it…and not looked at our watches every 5 min to see how long this Mass will be.
I’m sorry but there are times when Catholics get upset when Mass is longer than 45 min…Us Charismatics would gladly be there for hours…

Anyway I’m not usually so pushy but people who have no idea who the Holy Spirit is…always condemn, because they just don’t get it…Do Not Judge…
Snuffy

How many interpreters do you have at these meetings?

Also…re-read…

“Paul addresses the matter of ‘speaking in tongues’ as a possible problem in the church at Corinth. Although he acknowledges that the ability to speak in ‘various kinds of tongues’ and the ability to interpret these tongues are ‘spiritual gifts’ (1 Cor. 12:10), he is aware not all are to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30), and advises his readers to seek ‘the higher gifts’ (1 Cor. 12:31). In 1 Corinthians 13, he makes it clear that he thinks of love as the greatest spiritual gift. Love is contrasted with speaking ‘in the tongues of men and of angels’ (1 Cor. 13:1); love endures, while tongues will cease (v. 8).”

 

[agname]

“In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul gives a number of directions about the use of glossolalia. Speaking in tongues is not helpful to the community, he says, because it is incomprehensible (14:2). Only when there is interpretation is there edification (v. 5). When the community convenes, no more than three should speak in tongues, each in turn, and there must be an interpretation (v. 27). Paul feels that uncontrolled and uninterpreted speaking in tongues does not edify the community and that it gives outsiders the impression that believers are mad (v. 23). Yet, he allows this activity to take place, so long as it is done in orderly fashion and is accompanied by interpretation.”

 

[agname]

I’ve been to quite a few Charismatic churches…and this is what I observed.

1. Alleged tongue-speaking…not one person was able to interpret the speaking.
2. The focus of the Mass shifted away from the Eucharist to Healing calls, etc.
3. A plethora of liturgical abuses…the laity surrounding the altar, etc.

I firmly believe that 99% of the “tongue-speaking” today…is purely the result of emotionalism…hysteria, etc. Most scientists and psychiatrists would conclude the same.

 

[ginny]

May I suggest a little open mindedness please. I was led to a prayer group by the Holy Spirit. No need to explain here. Anyway, the tongues that you keep talking about with interpretation are different than a prayer language. The praying in tongues that you mostly hear are for prayer. Remember that when we don’t know how to pray the Holy Spirit prays through us. This doesn’t require interpretation. St. Francis had a prayer language. The Holy Father prayes in tongues as well (I can’t quote the place but I have read it) and it wasn’t by some lunatic charismatic

Perhaps the reason for the Renewal is because we are in great need of renewal. The people in the prayer group I attend go to daily Mass, Adoration and pray the Rosary and have a devotion to Mary.

Can you please step back and open your mind. Yes there are wacko people in the renewal and then there are those who love the Lord and no amount of argument is going to make you understand. Doesn’t the same go for Marian aparations? Aren’t there some wackos there? Doesn’t the Church have to investigate and sometimes find that they are wrong?

I think the Lord has/had the Protestants on the side loving the Lord and studying so that now when they become Catholics they are reevangelizing us.

 

[kragar]

WOW, THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT IN THE CHURCH HAS RECEIVED ENDORSEMENT FROM THE POPE. HE FREQUENTLY RECEIVES THE LEADERS IN AN AUDIENCE. WHO CAN ARGUE WOTH THE FRUITS??? MANY MANY VOCATIONS HAVE COME FROM THE RENEWAL AS WELLAS CONTEMPORARY PROPHETS,ie,RALPH MARTIN,PATTI MANSFIELD, SR.ANN SHIELDS,FR.MICHAEL SCANLON,PETER HERBECK,BABSIE BLEASDALE,(SP), SR.BRIEGE AND FR.KEVIN,ETC.THEY GO ALL OVER,LIKE THE APOSTLES, PREACHING A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP W ITH THE LORD. THEY PREACH THE BEAUTY OF THE SACRAMENTS AS A MEANS FOR DEEPER LOVE OF GOD. WHERE IS THE FAULT???

ANN

 

[Makerteacher]

Wow. Um, this thread is a little heated. I’ll certainly try to keep my cool.

I am both a devout, orthodox Catholic and also a charismatic. Yes, this is possible.

Please be aware when discussing charismatics as a group that we can be VERY different from one another, and that my Catholic charismatic community may bear remarkably little resemblence to another one, (and also that Protestant charismatics are usually VERY different from Catholic ones.)

You also have to ask a person who describes themselves as charismatic, “What does that mean TO YOU?” In my case, it means I am a member of an approved lay apostolate of the Catholic Church. The charismatic Renewal is one of the largest lay apostolates we Catholics have, numbering well into the millions now. Our group is a covenant community. We are one such community out of about 68 or so (not sure what current numbers are) worldwide, each of whom counts as members anywhere from a handful of folks to well over 6,000. Not every charismatic Catholic is in a covenant community.

**We are in full obedience to our local Bishop and to the Pope, whose approval we have. ** We ( our community) go to Mass in our own parishes and then gather weekly in addition for praise, prayer, and teachings. Prayer meetings usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour of prayer as a group. Nothing heretical. We do various outreach ministries, though other communities in the Fraternity do FAR more than we do (see last link below for more info). We are not superstititious, do not “drop the Bible open” for “magical” inspiration, do not abuse the liturgical norms, etc etc.

We are unlike Montanists in many ways. We are not ascetics, we do not believe we have “superior knowledge”, we are in FULL obedience with the Holy See, and we are not anti-intellectuals at ALL. Fr. Paul Hinnebusch was a member of our community: I challenge you to find anything the least bit unorthodox or anti-intellectual about that holy man, now deceased. his website: frpaulhinnebusch.org/

**I urge you all to be careful about painting charismatics with one wide brush. ** The one (or ten) charismatics you may have personally met may not be representative of ALL charismatics. It’s more a label for a style of worship than for anything else. Like all labels, it’s often inadequate or incomplete.

For a link to the fraternity of communities, our lay apostolate organization, go here: www.catholicfraternity.net

For a link to my community, The Christian Community of God’s delight in Dallas, TX, go to www.lumen2000.com

Finally, here’s one of our better known members in the CCC fraternity. This group is awesome, they are doing so many wonderful things! www.emmanuelcommunity.com

---

 

[beng]

kragar:

WOW, THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT IN THE CHURCH HAS RECEIVED ENDORSEMENT FROM THE POPE. HE FREQUENTLY RECEIVES THE LEADERS IN AN AUDIENCE. WHO CAN ARGUE WOTH THE FRUITS??? MANY MANY VOCATIONS HAVE COME FROM THE RENEWAL AS WELLAS CONTEMPORARY PROPHETS,ie,RALPH MARTIN,PATTI MANSFIELD, SR.ANN SHIELDS,FR.MICHAEL SCANLON,PETER HERBECK,BABSIE BLEASDALE,(SP), SR.BRIEGE AND FR.KEVIN,ETC.THEY GO ALL OVER,LIKE THE APOSTLES, PREACHING A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP W ITH THE LORD. THEY PREACH THE BEAUTY OF THE SACRAMENTS AS A MEANS FOR DEEPER LOVE OF GOD. WHERE IS THE FAULT???

ANN

If those tongues are practice against the Bible, we don’t care how many endorsement it got.

Arianism was endorsed by 80% of the Church (when the Church was one) Bishops. Does that mean that Arianism is right?

 

[beng]

Makerteacher:

… snipped…
**We are in full obedience to our local Bishop and to the Pope, whose approval we have. ** We ( our community) go to Mass in our own parishes and then gather weekly in addition for praise, prayer, and teachings. Prayer meetings usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour of prayer as a group. Nothing heretical. We do various outreach ministries, though other communities in the Fraternity do FAR more than we do (see last link below for more info). We are not superstititious, do not “drop the Bible open” for “magical” inspiration, do not abuse the liturgical norms, etc etc.

We are unlike Montanists in many ways. We are not ascetics, we do not believe we have “superior knowledge”, we are in FULL obedience with the Holy See, and we are not anti-intellectuals at ALL. Fr. Paul Hinnebusch was a member of our community: I challenge you to find anything the least bit unorthodox or anti-intellectual about that holy man, now deceased. his website: frpaulhinnebusch.org/

**I urge you all to be careful about painting charismatics with one wide brush. ** The one (or ten) charismatics you may have personally met may not be representative of ALL charismatics. It’s more a label for a style of worship than for anything else. Like all labels, it’s often inadequate or incomplete.

For a link to the fraternity of communities, our lay apostolate organization, go here: www.catholicfraternity.net

For a link to my community, The Christian Community of God’s delight in Dallas, TX, go to www.lumen2000.com

Finally, here’s one of our better known members in the CCC fraternity. This group is awesome, they are doing so many wonderful things! www.emmanuelcommunity.com

---

Simple question

Do you or any other member of your Charismatic group speak tongue in front of believers without interpretation?

 

[pnewton]

beng:

If those tongues are practice against the Bible, we don’t care how many endorsement it got.

I care very much that an apostlate is endorsed by the Church and the Holy Father, since that is what the authority of the Church is for, The Church’s authority overrides any individual’s interpretation of the Bible. Protesting the authority of the Church based on one’s interpretation of scripture has been done before.

I agree with you that tonguesand the baptism of the holy spirit as practiced since the Pentacostal/Holiness movement are not Biblically supported. But then I am not the Church’s authority, nor do I subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

 

[beng]

pnewton:

I care very much that an apostlate is endorsed by the Church and the Holy Father, since that is what the authority of the Church is for, The Church’s authority overrides any individual’s interpretation of the Bible. Protesting the authority of the Church based on one’s interpretation of scripture has been done before.

The endorsements doesn’t have authoritative power.

I agree with you that tonguesand the baptism of the holy spirit as practiced since the Pentacostal/Holiness movement are not Biblically supported. But then I am not the Church’s authority, nor do I subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

Not subscribing to Sola Scriptura doesn’t mean that you can go against the Bible.

 

[pnewton]

beng,

Then I will ask you the same thing I asked on the other thread. Since the Holy Father is more knowledgable than you or I, what is your source from within the Church that the Charismatic Renewal is not a legitimate apostalate?
Sure, we could go to the Bible and have 30,000+ different opinions. That is why I trust the Church.

 

[robertaf]

Greetings Church

Here we go again, huh?

I have been a Charismatic for about 35 years, when the Charismatic Renewal first started IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Not in any Protestant Church.
I am not going to take part in any of the silly and untrue statements here. Well except to mention that the above quote by Father from Vatican II documents was taken out of context and misleading. I do recommend you all read the entire mentioned text.

I have never been particular comfortable with the term “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. I do believe that the scripture where John the Baptist says that Jesus would Baptize in the Holy Spirit refers to the Sacrament of Baptism. I also believe that all Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism and Confirmation as well as the gifts. I do not believe we are always aware of the gifts or operate in them.

What we Charismatics refer to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit is more accurately a prayer for a person to recognize their gifts (whatever spiritual gifts they may be and there are many. ) and learn to operate in them. Non-charismatics tend to focus on tongues much more than Charismatics do.

Many of you have long lists of abuses in the Charismatic renewal that is implied to be very common. This is a distortion. You may disagree very loudly with me but I have spent many many years in leadership, teaching, working with a large Diocese and have been in problem solving groups. I know what I am talking about. There indeed, have been abuses, many more in the early days, but they were not the norm. Most of them would have been avoided if we had had more active participation from clergy. Pastors did not help, in spite of urging from Bishops and the Vatican.

We have the blessings of the Holy Father and that is more encouragement for me than the opinions of a few of you who dispise a valid part of the Church.

 

[charles223]

Quote:

I cannot find any Church teaching on the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" that my charismatic group uses. What exactly does this mean?

In response to the original question of this thread, Baptism in the Holy Spirit is the sacrament of Confirmation. In all the specific instances where Baptism in the Holy Spirit is mentioned in Acts, the Bishops (the Apostles) are administering the sacrament of Confirmation by laying their hands on the recepient.

 

[Makerteacher]

beng:

Simple question

Do you or any other member of your Charismatic group speak tongue in front of believers without interpretation?

Simple answer, which I have posted before: no, we don’t.

Did you follow any of the links I offered?

 

[beng]

pnewton:

beng,

Then I will ask you the same thing I asked on the other thread. Since the Holy Father is more knowledgable than you or I, what is your source from within the Church that the Charismatic Renewal is not a legitimate apostalate?
Sure, we could go to the Bible and have 30,000+ different opinions. That is why I trust the Church.

The pope only made an endorsement which can be erroneous.

I’m not pitting against the Holy Father. I just give you the verse and let the verses speak for themselves.

 

[beng]

Makerteacher:

Simple answer, which I have posted before: no, we don’t.

Did you follow any of the links I offered?

Do you have an interpreter than?

Good, the next step is to determine whether he’s a real one or just a con artist. Have you checked this? How do you check it?

 

[beng]

robertaf:

I have never been particular comfortable with the term “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. I do believe that the scripture where John the Baptist says that Jesus would Baptize in the Holy Spirit refers to the Sacrament of Baptism. I also believe that all Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism and Confirmation as well as the gifts. I do not believe we are always aware of the gifts or operate in them.

Good.

What we Charismatics refer to as the baptism of the Holy Spirit is more accurately a prayer for a person to recognize their gifts (whatever spiritual gifts they may be and there are many. ) and learn to operate in them. Non-charismatics tend to focus on tongues much more than Charismatics do.

This is very erroneous.

Gift from the Holy Spirit is not some “hidden power” that you could “activate” like some kind of Chinese inner power.

We have the blessings of the Holy Father and that is more encouragement for me than the opinions of a few of you who dispise a valid part of the Church.

Is that directed at me?

If that is directed to a particular group, am I in it?

If you don’t want opinion then go to the infallible word of God that’s already so clear on the matter. 1Cor 14:27-28

 

[Makerteacher]

beng:

Do you have an interpreter than?

Good, the next step is to determine whether he’s a real one or just a con artist. Have you checked this? How do you check it?

The interpretor varies. Not the same person, though it is usually one of about five persons in our community, one of them a priest, who seem to have been given this gift. I certainly don’t have it. I think, Beng, that you would be astonished at how small a place tongues has in the Charismatic Catholic Community you seem so determined to despise. We are far more about praising God and listening to His word, both in Scripture and in theological teachings such as the Pope’s messages and the lives of the Saints. Our major distinction from you is probably that we tend to raise our hands a lot, and we go not only to Mass (usually daily) (usually no tonuges at all) but also to a weekly three hour prayer meeting AND usually also to a weekly share group meeting. Many of our members ALSO do an hour or more of weekly Eucharistic Adoration and a one hour stint in our Community Prayer watch.

I know it sounds like I am bragging and I truly don’t mean to: I am trying to impress upon you --and on others-- that we Charismatics, on the whole, are pretty deeply devoted to God, and to the Church He started way back when. Our lives have been radically altered by His gracious intervention on our behalf. We have surrendered everything to Him and are striving to do His will in a world starving for His love.** We are not your enemies. We are your brothers and sisters in the Faith.** We love you, we love the Faith, and cannot understand why so many people refuse to see that we are a part of the family just like they are. It is painful for us to be rejected by you, when Our Pope has said we are one with you.

Do you have some fool proof system set up to test the validity of interpretation? I am open to hearing it.

I will ask again, did you follow any of the links I posted earlier?

I hope so. You might discover that you are tilting at the proverbial windmill here. Charismatic Catholics are not enemies of the Church. She has several real enemies who are posing real dnagers: let’s spend our time and energy on them!

 

[beng]

Makerteacher:

The interpretor varies. Not the same person, though it is usually one of about five persons in our community, one of them a priest, who seem to have been given this gift. I certainly don’t have it.

Do some checking.

1. Have two poeple who have this gift hear tongue
2. Seperate them
3. Hear or even record what they say.
4. Compare their statements.
5. Relay the result to me please.

I think, Beng, that you would be astonished at how small a place tongues has in the Charismatic Catholic Community you seem so determined to despise.

Is an error that goes against the Bible can be considered small?

.** We are not your enemies. We are your brothers and sisters in the Faith.** We love you, we love the Faith, and cannot understand why so many people refuse to see that we are a part of the family just like they are. It is painful for us to be rejected by you, when Our Pope has said we are one with you.

Because we are brother, I’m all in arm with correcting the errors.

And about the Pope, the Holy Father wouldn’t go against the Bile would he?

Do you have some fool proof system set up to test the validity of interpretation? I am open to hearing it.

See above.

I will ask again, did you follow any of the links I posted earlier? I hope so.

No.

Is it the same endorsement from Pope, Bishops etc? I’ve been debating with Charismatic since day one of this board. They have given me many links and sometime a new guy appear to the debate and just given the same old same old. That’s why I don’t bother.

You might discover that you are tilting at the proverbial windmill here. Charismatic Catholics are not enemies of the Church. She has several real enemies who are posing real dnagers: let’s spend our time and energy on them!

The real enemy of the church are the one who go against the Bible. Is this incorrect?

 

[paxvobiscum]

Many of the Pentecostals I know also separate the Baptism of fire as told of in Matt 3:11 and Luke 3:16. Has anyone heard this? The belief is that there are three separate baptisms, each with a different function.