Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[pnewton]

Beng is right about the need for good catachesis.

Non-Catholic denominations, have valid baptism. Valid baptism cleanses from all sin. Therefore, it is possible to be baptized into another denomination and not be in a state of mortal sin. Also, the church recognizes in the prayer intercessions for Good Friday our separated brethern.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

And NO.

No one outside the Catholic Church is a part of the Body of Christ!!

DO NOT follow the erroneous notion developped by Protestantism that all churches (Ex: Lutheran, Orthodox, Pentacostal etc) are the Body of Christ operating in a different ways.

Oh man, the bad shape of today Catechesize…

Beng, So that I may be properly instructed please show me in scripture where it says that anyone out of the RCC is not part of the body of Christ?

 

[1962Missal]

beng:

When you’re in mortal sin you CUT YOURSELF from the grace of God. THIS IS “DE FIDE”!

Your relationship with God is OFF in an intimate way (Not totally because no being or even “things” can’t be seperated with God completely because He’s the one who sustain all things). Thus, the infamous Protestant sugar coated “personal relationship with Jesus” is wrong just because Protestant is in the state of heresy.

When you’re NOT in the state of Grace your other prayers, beside ones that impel you to seek reconciliation to the one true church, ARE USELESS (do read your Baltimore Catechism).

First thing first. One must be united with the Body of Christ aka the Catholic Church before one can have such profound relationship with God (ex: speaking the words of God).

Learn the faith and not base your judgment on mere “feeling,” which is what I’ve seen in your post above.

That is true if it is admitted that protestants are formal heretics. It is probable, however, that most protestants are material heretics, only. One can be a material heretic and not be in a state of mortal sin.

The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness–free choice–is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one’s own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of “freely willed”.

 

[Makerteacher]

beng:

And NO.
No one outside the Catholic Church is a part of the Body of Christ!!

DO NOT follow the erroneous notion developped by Protestantism that all churches (Ex: Lutheran, Orthodox, Pentacostal etc) are the Body of Christ operating in a different ways.

Oh man, the bad shape of today Catechesize…

The Catechism disagrees with you.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” 272

And furthermore, the Church PURSUES Her separated children with a mission which, if you read the whole section, you will see is clearly LED by the Holy Spirit.

855 The Church’s mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity. 357 Indeed, “divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects.” 358

856 The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. 359 Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better “those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God.” 360 They proclaim the Good News to those who do not know it, in order to consolidate, complete, and raise up the truth and the goodness that God has distributed among men and nations, and to purify them from error and evil “for the glory of God, the confusion of the demon, and the happiness of man.” 361

Beng, you consistently accuse others of being “poorly catechized” but you reject any documents that are posted as being “not authoritative,” (I personally take Vatican documents to be more authoritative than personal opinions) and you honestly seem to be unaware of the teachings of the Faith in many cases, like calling non-Catholics “not a part of the Body of Christ”. Thats NOT Catholic teaching! Protestants are Christians, the Magisterium recognizes and teaches this in our Catechism.

And God can use ANYBODY to speak His word, to do His will, and to affect His world. I rejoice in His love for us fallen men and women, in the many paths to Holiness He offers us, and I pray that we may all grow closer to one another as we grow closer to Him.

 

[beng]

1962Missal:

That is true if it is admitted that protestants are formal heretics. It is probable, however, that most protestants are material heretics, only. One can be a material heretic and not be in a state of mortal sin.

They have reach the age of reason. They are not united with the one true church. They can not be invincible ignorance since there are many Catholic Church, hospitals, school and books lying aound. And there’s the internet.

Even so, if they are material heretics, they have a malformed conscience (which lead them to the heresy). A malformed conscience can be a sin.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng, So that I may be properly instructed please show me in scripture where it says that anyone out of the RCC is not part of the body of Christ?

Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?

How can Protestant be the Body of Christ when they are in disagreement with each other? The Catholic Church is THE ONLY true Church!

HUMANI GENERIS

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
CONCERNING SOME FALSE OPINIONS THREATENING
TO UNDERMINE THE FOUNDATIONS OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
TO OUR VENERABLE BRETHREN, PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES,
ARCHBISHOPS, BISHIOPS, AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES
ENJOYING PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE HOLY SEE

…

1. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.
   …

Council of Orange:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Ahhh the sad state of bad catechizes today.

 

[beng]

The Catechism disagrees with you.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” 272

Those who are born into the communities of heretics not knowing the one true Church can not be charge with sin of seperation (schism). But when they know that there’s a Catholic Church and there’s sufficient information provided about the Catholic Church, they are not in the satte of invincible ignorance and thus seperated themselves willfully from the Body of Christ that is the Catholic Church.

btw, It’s called “seperated brethren” by Lumen Gentium.

And furthermore, the Church PURSUES Her separated children with a mission which, if you read the whole section, you will see is clearly LED by the Holy Spirit.

855 The Church’s mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity. 357 Indeed, “divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her… aspects.” 358

This further proves my point. “seperated from full communion.” look at the decree of Council of Orange above.

856 The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. 359 Believers can …the confusion of the demon, and the happiness of man." 361

This has nothing to do with anything.

Beng, you consistently accuse others of being “poorly catechized” but you reject any documents that are posted as being “not authoritative,” (I personally take Vatican documents to be more authoritative than personal opinions) and you honestly seem to be unaware of the teachings of the Faith in many cases, like calling non-Catholics “not a part of the Body of Christ”. Thats NOT Catholic teaching!

Do you think any document coming out of Vatican are authoritative?

And saying that any other entity than Catholic Church is part of the Body Of Christ just prove how poorly Catechizes you are. Read teh encyclicals from Pius XII and decree of the Council of Orange above!!

Protestants are Christians, the Magisterium recognizes and teaches this in our Catechism.

I wouldn’;t say Christian in the full sense of the word. Only a true Catholic can be a true Christian.

And God can use ANYBODY to speak His word, to do His will, and to affect His world. I rejoice in His love for us fallen men and women, in the many paths to Holiness He offers us, and I pray that we may all grow closer to one another as we grow closer to Him.

Those who are in mortal sin have severe themselves from an intimate relation with God. When a person comitted a mortal sin, he lost the grace bestowed by the death of Christ to reconcile with God. Thus, he’s not much better than a pagan. The first and foremost things to do for this person (and God knows this) is to get him out of mortal sin first. So it’s very unlikely that God will five anything to him other than something that would lead him to reconciliation.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?

How can Protestant be the Body of Christ when they are in disagreement with each other? The Catholic Church is THE ONLY true Church!

HUMANI GENERIS

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
CONCERNING SOME FALSE OPINIONS THREATENING
TO UNDERMINE THE FOUNDATIONS OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
TO OUR VENERABLE BRETHREN, PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES,
ARCHBISHOPS, BISHIOPS, AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES
ENJOYING PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE HOLY SEE

…

1. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.
   …

Council of Orange:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Ahhh the sad state of bad catechizes today.

Beng, You still have not answered my question. Ill keep waiting.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng, You still have not answered my question. Ill keep waiting.

Do you not accept proof from Holy Tradition?

CCC

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Footnotes:
335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21L 3,1169; De unit.L 4,509-536.
336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.

Spend more time learning and less time doing fake tongues.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

Do you not accept proof from Holy Tradition?

CCC

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Footnotes:
335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21L 3,1169; De unit.L 4,509-536.
336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.

Spend more time learning and less time doing fake tongues.

Still waiting. I accept the Word of God.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Still waiting. I accept the Word of God.

Look at the footnote!!

MARK 16:16!!!

Or maybe, let’s make it simple. NO THERE’S NO PRROF IN THE SCRIPTURE! But there’s proof in Holy Tradition.

Are you gonna deny this and be a Protestant? Whcih Protestant? Pentacostal? Lutheran? Episcopal?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

Look at the footnote!!

MARK 16:16!!!

Or maybe, let’s make it simple. NO THERE’S NO PRROF IN THE SCRIPTURE! But there’s proof in Holy Tradition.

Are you gonna deny this and be a Protestant? Whcih Protestant? Pentacostal? Lutheran? Episcopal?

Beng, Thanks for answering my question. Im not protesting anything,Im just a christian who belongs to the Body of Christ.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng, Thanks for answering my question. Im not protesting anything,Im just a christian who belongs to the Body of Christ.

Are you a Catholic?

Btw, I have provided scriptures passage.

Me saying that there’s no proof from scripture is just to get you out of the closet.

 

[1962Missal]

beng:

They have reach the age of reason. They are not united with the one true church. They can not be invincible ignorance since there are many Catholic Church, hospitals, school and books lying aound. And there’s the internet.

Even so, if they are material heretics, they have a malformed conscience (which lead them to the heresy). A malformed conscience can be a sin.

1: Again he began to teach beside the sea. And a very large crowd gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole crowd was beside the sea on the land.
2: And he taught them many things in parables, and in his teaching he said to them: 3: “Listen! A sower went out to sow.
4: And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it. 5: Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it had not much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil; 6: and when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away. 7: Other seed fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain. 8: And other seeds fell into good soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.” 9: And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Those who have been exposed to the truth of the Catholic faith may not be culpable for their failure to hear what has been preached to them. In which case they remain material heretics.

Justin

 

[beng]

1962Missal:

Those who have been exposed to the truth of the Catholic faith may not be culpable for their failure to hear what has been preached to them. In which case they remain material heretics.

Justin

Material Heretics are not members of the Church

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma - Ludwig Ott
Membership of The Church

…

1. Inference
   Among members of the Church are not to be counted:
   …
   b) Open apostates and heretics. Public heretics, even those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body of the Church, that is to the legal commonwealth of the Church. However this does not prevent them from belonging spiritually to the church by their desire to belong to the Church (votum Ecclesie) and through this , achieving justification and salvation.

According to the more probable opinion, represented by St. Bellarmine and most modern theologians (Palmieri, Billot, Straub, Pesch) against Suarez, Franzelin, and others, secret apostasy and heretics remain members of the Church, because the loss of membership of the Church, just as much as its acquisition, on account of the visibility of the Church, can only result from externally legally ascertainable facts

 

[1962Missal]

beng:

Material Heretics are not members of the Church

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma - Ludwig Ott
Membership of The Church

…

1. Inference
   Among members of the Church are not to be counted:
   …
   b) Open apostates and heretics. Public heretics, even those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body of the Church, that is to the legal commonwealth of the Church. However this does not prevent them from belonging spiritually to the church by their desire to belong to the Church (votum Ecclesie) and through this , achieving justification and salvation.

According to the more probable opinion, represented by St. Bellarmine and most modern theologians (Palmieri, Billot, Straub, Pesch) against Suarez, Franzelin, and others, secret apostasy and heretics remain members of the Church, because the loss of membership of the Church, just as much as its acquisition, on account of the visibility of the Church, can only result from externally legally ascertainable facts

Beng, I wasn’t saying that material heretics were part of the Church; I was saying that those Protestants who are material and not formal heretics are not, ipso facto, in a state of mortal sin—as Ott implies. (See boldface in quote)

 

[beng]

1962Missal:

Beng, I wasn’t saying that material heretics were part of the Church; I was saying that those Protestants who are material and not formal heretics are not, ipso facto, in a state of mortal sin—as Ott implies. (See boldface in quote)

Oh, Ok

However they have a malformed conscience. This could be a sin.

 

[Prometheum_x]

%between% Some decades later, in 1966. some Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestants, asked that the Protestants lay hands on them, to receive tongues - for tongues were supposed to be the sign that one had been baptized in the Spirit.

Fortunately, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal that I am a part of did not have its beginnings with Catholics asking protestants to lay hands on them. It appears then that there are perhaps two different kinds of Catholic Charismatics.

 

[robertaf]

Good Afternoon Church

I was a Charismatic Catholic in the 1960s. It was not Protestants laying hands on us in our communities either, it was a Catholic Priest. We were not prayed over for tongues, specifically but for a fresh infilling of the Holy Spirit. This is not at all unusual in the Catholic Church, it is done very often during Mass.

We had protestants come into our prayer meetings but we were laying hands on them and praying for them not the other way around.

Beng, please be careful in your judgements. We are warned over and over about it. We are even told that Jesus will judge us in the same way we judge others.
If I remember right we were not ever commanded to judge but to love. Leave the judging to the Lord. It is much safer ground.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif

 

[beng]

robertaf:

Good Afternoon Church

I was a Charismatic Catholic in the 1960s. It was not Protestants laying hands on us in our communities either, it was a Catholic Priest. We were not prayed over for tongues, specifically but for a fresh infilling of the Holy Spirit. This is not at all unusual in the Catholic Church, it is done very often during Mass.

Fresh infilling? A new sugar coated term?

Give me the definition and meaning and let’s see if its theolgy is correct.

We had protestants come into our prayer meetings but we were laying hands on them and praying for them not the other way around.

You should not lay hand to anybody.

Beng, please be careful in your judgements. We are warned over and over about it. We are even told that Jesus will judge us in the same way we judge others.
If I remember right we were not ever commanded to judge but to love. Leave the judging to the Lord. It is much safer ground.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif

If I see a person fornicate, then I should not judge him because only God can judge? If I see a person abuse her won children then I should not judge her because only God can judge?

Please do not use scripture without understanding scripture:

1 Corinthians 6:1-8
1 When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life! 4 If then you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who are least esteemed by the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no man among you wise enough to decide between members of the brotherhood, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren.