Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[jbania]

These misguided notions of being “baptized in the Holy Spirit” are similar of some protestant denominations. Bishops need to be more assertive with the charasmatic movement. There is major abuse with this movement. As one gentleman said on this thread, we must be careful with every legitimate devotion in the Catholic Church so as to not invent an 8th sacrament. For 2,000 years The focus and pinacle of the Catholic Faith has always been and always will be “The Holy Eucharist”. We have the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Reconcilliation do an excellent job in introducing us to “the gifts of the Holy Spirit”. We do not need to reinvent the wheel and passionately explore euphoric feelings here to enhance fulfillment. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not a wish, or on demand feeling. Cooperating with His grace will help us discern His gifts on our life long journey in faith.
Jim Bania

 

[robertaf]

Good Morning Church

Good Morning Beng

Beng, I have no way of knowing if I was referring to you or to a group you belong to. I do not know you. I see what you are posting and it would appear you do not particularly care for the Charismatic Renewal but it is not my intention to make my posts personal and would hope you do not take them that way. I know as a fact there are people who detest the Renewal, and they ARE folks I have known personally.

Now as to tongues and interpretation of tongues. There is indeed this gift and I have seen it in operation. It is my experience it is fairly rare. On about half dozen occaisions over the past 35 years, I have been present at a prayer meeting when someone has spoken out in tongues. At exactly the same moment, I was hearing the person speak in tongues, I was hearing the message in my own language. It is common to hear the words and to reflect for a few seconds. In each and every instance, before I could speak out, another person did and spoke the exact same message I heard.

As to the message. It was not a new revelation. It was, in fact referring to something very Biblical and something very Catholic. The message itself was how that Biblical reference applied to the folks at that particular time. If I could compare it to anything at all, it might be compared to a very short but very profound homily. That is not a good comparison but the only one I can think of.

At any rate, once again, I want to say, I had heard the exact, same words in my mind that were spoken out. I think this is a perfect example of the scripture you speak about.

I think you have not understood that there appears to be other type of tongues. I know of one very specific type that I witnessed several years prior to Vatican II with a mentally retarded child speaking perfect Latin. This is a beautiful story and I will be more than happy to share it with the board if anyone is interested.

 

[agname]

beng:

Simple question

Do you or any other member of your Charismatic group speak tongue in front of believers without interpretation?

I’ll take a wild guess…Yes.

 

[agname]

The Church didn’t want to crack down on Montanism either. My prediction is that the Church will address the issue in great detail within the next 10 - 20 years.

 

[Arlene_Alice]

Dear Robertaf:

I am new to the Forum, having been baptized in FIRE over my opposition to the Harry Potter series on another thread. I have been a Catholic Charismatic for 25 years and reading thru some of the comments here, am appalled by those who pose such uneducated opposition to a Movement that has had the Pope’s and Bishop’s support and approval.

The easiest thing I can suggest to those who are earnest seekers of straight answers, is to go to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal web site ccc.garg.com/ and take advantage of the many resources it offers.

The Holy Spirit and His Work is not a 20th century phenomenon.
God, the Holy Spirit, is present way back in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. To limit His abilities and say that the Pentecostal Movement is not for our times, is folly in full bloom! We can only look around at a Church in Crisis and plead for the purifying fires of the Holy Spirit to cleanse and renew the Bride of Christ. Many saints, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, were gifted with the charisms. Speaking in tongues, visions, prophecy, gifts of healing, administration, deliverance, evangelization were very active in their lives.

Folks have mentioned abuses occurring in the Charismatic Movement. Yes, there have been. That is why Dioceses appoint clerical liaisons to moderate and guide our prayer groups. The Chicago Archdiocese has a very active Renewal Center.

Abuses have occurred in the Marion Movement and other Movements in the Church, as well. There are always those who will abuse the gifts given to the Church. Therefore, it is with wisdom that the Church investigates and corrects these abuses.
But, what folly to condemn an entire movement over the abuses of a few.

There are a reported 10 million Catholics worldwide who have experienced the “infilling” of the Holy Spirit and have found it a very awesome and rewarding experience. Certainly I would not hesitate to make a Life in the Spirit Seminar.

Having said that, your salvation DOES NOT depend on joining the Charismatic or Marion Movements. It is a special grace given to those who are called to this experience.

However, please don’t knock the work of the Holy Spirit. God’s Ways are not your ways.

 

[agname]

SPOKENWORD:

Beng ,Im not speaking in tongues. What part do you not understand what I said?

You’re not speaking English either.

 

[agname]

Arlene Alice:

Dear Robertaf:

I am new to the Forum, having been baptized in FIRE over my opposition to the Harry Potter series on another thread. I have been a Catholic Charismatic for 25 years and reading thru some of the comments here, am appalled by those who pose such uneducated opposition to a Movement that has had the Pope’s and Bishop’s support and approval.

The easiest thing I can suggest to those who are earnest seekers of straight answers, is to go to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal web site ccc.garg.com/ and take advantage of the many resources it offers.

The Holy Spirit and His Work is not a 20th century phenomenon.
God, the Holy Spirit, is present way back in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. To limit His abilities and say that the Pentecostal Movement is not for our times, is folly in full bloom! We can only look around at a Church in Crisis and plead for the purifying fires of the Holy Spirit to cleanse and renew the Bride of Christ. Many saints, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, were gifted with the charisms. Speaking in tongues, visions, prophecy, gifts of healing, administration, deliverance, evangelization were very active in their lives.

Folks have mentioned abuses occurring in the Charismatic Movement. Yes, there have been. That is why Dioceses appoint clerical liaisons to moderate and guide our prayer groups. The Chicago Archdiocese has a very active Renewal Center.

Abuses have occurred in the Marion Movement and other Movements in the Church, as well. There are always those who will abuse the gifts given to the Church. Therefore, it is with wisdom that the Church investigates and corrects these abuses.
But, what folly to condemn an entire movement over the abuses of a few.

There are a reported 10 million Catholics worldwide who have experienced the “infilling” of the Holy Spirit and have found it a very awesome and rewarding experience. Certainly I would not hesitate to make a Life in the Spirit Seminar.

Having said that, your salvation DOES NOT depend on joining the Charismatic or Marion Movements. It is a special grace given to those who are called to this experience.

However, please don’t knock the work of the Holy Spirit. God’s Ways are not your ways.

How many interpreters do you have?

 

[beng]

Arlene Alice:

Dear Robertaf:

I am new to the Forum, having been baptized in FIRE over my opposition to the Harry Potter series on another thread. I have been a Catholic Charismatic for 25 years and reading thru some of the comments here, am appalled by those who pose such uneducated opposition to a Movement that has had the Pope’s and Bishop’s support and approval.

First of all, Uneducated? Do you thing St Augustine, Fr William G. Most, and even Patrick Madrid is uneducated?

Second of all, Baptism by Fire? is that another name for Baptism by Holy Spirit? If so, then it’s wrong:

This [Baptism in the Holy Spirit] is contrary to Vatican II. In On the Church §12 the Council distinguishes ordinary and extraordinary charisms: “The extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly asked for, nor should the fruits of apostolic works be presumptuously expected from them; but the judgment of their genuine character and the ordered exercise of them pertains to those who preside in the Church…”

Third of all, again and again I say to those people who justify their error by saying that Pope and Bishop support it, Arianism was supported by 80% of the Catholic Church Bishop at the time.

And the fact is, maybe you’re right. We are uneducated. But no one need to have more than a high school diploma to understand 1Cor14:27-28 which has been violated by many Charismatics.

The easiest thing I can suggest to those who are earnest seekers of straight answers, is to go to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal web site ccc.garg.com/ and take advantage of the many resources it offers.

I’ll go there later.

However the best defnse and the best endorsement put on that site won’t matter if they defy Inspired Words’ truth (1 Cor 14:27-28)

The Holy Spirit and His Work is not a 20th century phenomenon.
God, the Holy Spirit, is present way back in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. To limit His abilities and say that the Pentecostal Movement is not for our times, is folly in full bloom!

St Augustine said the opposite (quoted on newadvent.org entry on tongues). Because the Church now (St Augustine’s era) speaks many language the miracle of tongues is less necessary (doesn’t mean that it dies completely)

We can only look around at a Church in Crisis and plead for the purifying fires of the Holy Spirit to cleanse and renew the Bride of Christ. Many saints, including the Blessed Virgin Mary, were gifted with the charisms. Speaking in tongues, visions, prophecy, gifts of healing, administration, deliverance, evangelization were very active in their lives.

There are only some saints who speak tongue. There are many who don’t.

cont

 

[beng]

Folks have mentioned abuses occurring in the Charismatic Movement. Yes, there have been. That is why Dioceses appoint clerical liaisons to moderate and guide our prayer groups. The Chicago Archdiocese has a very active Renewal Center.

Abuses have occurred in the Marion Movement and other Movements in the Church, as well. There are always those who will abuse the gifts given to the Church. Therefore, it is with wisdom that the Church investigates and corrects these abuses.
But, what folly to condemn an entire movement over the abuses of a few.

As long as there’s tongue spoken in front of congregation without interpretation, I will say that there’s still an abuse. It’s simply cannot be allowed.

There are a reported 10 million Catholics worldwide who have experienced the “infilling” of the Holy Spirit and have found it a very awesome and rewarding experience. Certainly I would not hesitate to make a Life in the Spirit Seminar.

I think it was Vittus who share his negative insight about this seminar.

Anyway, I think I;m filled with Holy Spirit everytime I went to Mass and receive Communion. Everytime I am absolved etc.

Maybe I don’t have the “tingling” emotion of those mega seminar with melancholy music and a thousand other people cheering, however, I don’t equate Fatih with emotion. So I’m good.

Having said that, your salvation DOES NOT depend on joining the Charismatic or Marion Movements. It is a special grace given to those who are called to this experience.

However, please don’t knock the work of the Holy Spirit. God’s Ways are not your ways.

well, if it’s violate 1Cor14:27-28, we SHOULD knock it. It’s unbiblical, wrong and lead to sin.

 

[Makerteacher]

beng:

Do some checking.

1. Have two poeple who have this gift hear tongue
2. Seperate them
3. Hear or even record what they say.
4. Compare their statements.
5. Relay the result to me please.

I am not one of the leaders in our community, but I will suggest this to them. I do think however that this sounds rather like laying a fleece before the Lord. Only once have I seen an interpretation NOT be accepted. The priest in our group gave a second interpretation after a woman gave hers, and everyone in the prayer group agreed (even the woman) that she had been incorrect. Most likely she was just uncomfortable with the silent period that sometimes follows the rare prublic prophecies.

It’s not against the Bible at all. Read I Cor 14 in its entirety, and you’ll see that Paul allows public speaking in tongues when there is an interpretor and it is done in an orderly fashion. We have interpretations every time. It is always in an orderly fashion, and in the case of my community, this ONLY happens during prayer meetings, NEVER during Mass, when the focus is always on the Sacrifice made real at the altar.

More later: I am on my way to lunch with both several Catholic and (gasp) NON Catholic church leaders! They have charismatic groups in their parishes or churches (in one case, Messianic Jewish Temple) as well, and we meet monthly to share what the Lord is saying to us. Remarkably, each of these prayer groups usually gets the same message from month to momth.We call this our FLB meetings: Fun Lunch Bunch . It’s also about ecumenism. Each group is devoted to working towards the reunification of the Church.

Lord, Let us be one.

 

[beng]

Makerteacher:

I am not one of the leaders in our community, but I will suggest this to them. I do think however that this sounds rather like laying a fleece before the Lord.

No. It’s call testing the spirit 1John 4:1. It’s ordered by scripture.

Only once have I seen an interpretation NOT be accepted. The priest in our group gave a second interpretation after a woman gave hers, and everyone in the prayer group agreed (even the woman) that she had been incorrect. Most likely she was just uncomfortable with the silent period that sometimes follows the rare prublic prophecies.

Hmm, this really affect the credibility.

It’s not against the Bible at all. Read I Cor 14 in its entirety, and you’ll see that Paul allows public speaking in tongues when there is an interpretor and it is done in an orderly fashion. We have interpretations every time. It is always in an orderly fashion, and in the case of my community, this ONLY happens during prayer meetings, NEVER during Mass, when the focus is always on the Sacrifice made real at the altar.

Yes.

Providing that the interpretation is correct and not a fake one then all is within 1Cor14:27-28.

More later: I am on my way to lunch with both several Catholic and (gasp) NON Catholic church leaders! They have charismatic groups in their parishes or churches (in one case, Messianic Jewish Temple) as well, and we meet monthly to share what the Lord is saying to us. Remarkably, each of these prayer groups usually gets the same message from month to momth.We call this our FLB meetings: Fun Lunch Bunch . It’s also about ecumenism. Each group is devoted to working towards the reunification of the Church.

Lord, Let us be one.

Those who are not within the Catholic Church can’t really be used by the lord to speak his words. It’s because non-Catholic are still in mortal sin therefore they have cut off their relationship with God in an intimate level, although not entirely.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

{ QUOTE] BY BENG. Those who are not within the Catholic Church can’t really be used by the lord to speak his words. It’s because non-Catholic are still in mortal sin therefore they have cut off their relationship with God in an intimate level, although not entirely. Bing,How does it feel playing God?. Just because the RCC says you become God doesnt mean you are. Your talk I believe only causes the Holy Spirit to grieve. All you are doing is causing strife among your christian brothers and sisters. You seriously need prayer and ill add you to my list.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

BY BENG. Those who are not within the Catholic Church can’t really be used by the lord to speak his words. It’s because non-Catholic are still in mortal sin therefore they have cut off their relationship with God in an intimate level, although not entirely.

Bing,How does it feel playing God?. Just because the RCC says you become God doesnt mean you are. Your talk I believe only causes the Holy Spirit to grieve. All you are doing is causing strife among your christian brothers and sisters. You seriously need prayer and ill add you to my list.

What I’ve expound is in line with Catholic doctrine.

Do you really know Catholic doctrines?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

beng:

What I’ve expound is in line with Catholic doctrine.

Do you really know Catholic doctrines?

BENG. Listen God used a donkey to speak his word and he wasnt roman catholic.

 

[beng]

SPOKENWORD:

BENG. Listen God used a donkey to speak his word and he wasnt roman catholic.

No, God didn’t use the donkey to speak His word. re-read.

 

[Arlene_Alice]

Beng:

Wasn’t it St. Augustine who had no trouble condemning abortion because he thought life began at birth? Who said saints were infallible?

Like some wise man once said, you can use the Bible to justify just about anything.

The Catholic Chrismatic Movement is for today, it is a scripturally based phenomenon, it’s fruits are the fruits of the Holy Spirit, it changes lives, converts them to Jesus Christ, enriches our spiritual journeys, renews the Church and IS SUPPORTED BY THE POPE!

If you want to take your argument before the throne of Peter, be my guest.

In the meantime, you may be grieving the Holy Spirit! Think about it.

 

[beng]

Arlene Alice:

Beng:

Wasn’t it St. Augustine who had no trouble condemning abortion because he thought life began at birth? Who said saints were infallible?

Ah yes. St Augustine was not infallible. Let’s just throw about half of Catholic theology down the drain since, after all, St Augsuitne is infalible.

Like some wise man once said, you can use the Bible to justify just about anything.

That’s gotta be a foolish wise man.

The Catholic Chrismatic Movement is for today, it is a scripturally based phenomenon, it’s fruits are the fruits of the Holy Spirit, it changes lives, converts them to Jesus Christ, enriches our spiritual journeys, renews the Church and IS SUPPORTED BY THE POPE!

If you want to take your argument before the throne of Peter, be my guest.

Did the Pope made an infallible statement regarding Charismatic? Wait, did the Pope made an authoritative statement regarding Charismatic?

(You do know the difference between infallible and authoritative statements right?)

and btw, SSPX was once supported by The Pope since the Pope gives aproval.

In the meantime, you may be grieving the Holy Spirit! Think about it.

Is the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit? The answer is Yes.

There’s this one verse in the Bible. It’s 1 Cor 14:27-28 which basically says that if someone wanna speak tongue infront of the congregation of believers, he/she better be darn sure that there’s an interpreter to make sense the out of the world lingo. If there isn’t any interpreter, let them be silence!

As long as YOUR Charismatic practice disobey these spirit breathed word of Gods then what you have is not from the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit can not contradict Itself.

 

[Makerteacher]

beng:

Those who are not within the Catholic Church can’t really be used by the lord to speak his words. It’s because non-Catholic are still in mortal sin therefore they have cut off their relationship with God in an intimate level, although not entirely.

Oh, Beng, I stand appalled by this comment. It is in direct violation of so much of the Bible, the Magisterium, and the historical Church.

I can only suppose that you are operating in deep fear that your personal Catholic identity will somehow be compromised by contact with those outside of the Church. My own personal Catholic identity is enriched, not diminished, when I fellowship with my brethren (and other Christians ARE my brethren) in ANY way.

I have never been asked to hide or downplay the Catholicism that is so deeply a part of me when I meet with and pray with my fellow brothers and sisters who are outside of the Catholic faith. Indeed they are often hungry for what we have to offer: the wisdom of the saints, the glory of the Eucharist, an understanding of contemplative prayer. We have much to offer them. They also have much to offer us. We are many parts: we are all one body.

It seems to me, --and I qualify this with stating that I am flawed and human and could be dead wrong–, but it seems to me that you are hoarding the gifts God has granted you in the Catholic Church, rather than sharing them with those outside the Faith, and receiving the gifts they might have for you.

True ecumenism does not require us to lose anything from who we are, who God has called us to be. It enriches us, not diminishes us. My personal example is Jesus, who hung out NOT just with the in-crowd, the leaders and temple-goers of His day, but with the tax collectors, the prostitutes, and the social pariahs. I hang out not just with the Catholics but with the atheists and the Protestants (NOT to say that Protestants are whores or pariahs, y’all, , please don’t misunderstand me ) and the non denominationals and so on.

Beng, it becomes increasingly clear to me that NO amount of discussion will change your mind about the Charismatic renewal, and that’s OK. I will continue to post replies and links as the conversation goes on, primarily for those who might be lurking. I neither expect you to reply nor expect you to read and respond. May God bless you and lead you to deeper love for Him.

I recommend to everyone the book by Archbishop Paul Josef Cordes, “Call to Holiness: Reflections on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.” available from Liturgucal Press, Collegeville, Minnesota

 

[beng]

Makerteacher:

Oh, Beng, I stand appalled by this comment. It is in direct violation of so much of the Bible, the Magisterium, and the historical Church.

I can only suppose that you are operating in deep fear that your personal Catholic identity will somehow be compromised by contact with those outside of the Church. My own personal Catholic identity is enriched, not diminished, when I fellowship with my brethren (and other Christians ARE my brethren) in ANY way.

I have never been asked to hide or downplay the Catholicism that is so deeply a part of me when I meet with and pray with my fellow brothers and sisters who are outside of the Catholic faith. Indeed they are often hungry for what we have to offer: the wisdom of the saints, the glory of the Eucharist, an understanding of contemplative prayer. We have much to offer them. They also have much to offer us. We are many parts: we are all one body.

It seems to me, --and I qualify this with stating that I am flawed and human and could be dead wrong–, but it seems to me that you are hoarding the gifts God has granted you in the Catholic Church, rather than sharing them with those outside the Faith, and receiving the gifts they might have for you.

True ecumenism does not require us to lose anything from who we are, who God has called us to be. It enriches us, not diminishes us. My personal example is Jesus, who hung out NOT just with the in-crowd, the leaders and temple-goers of His day, but with the tax collectors, the prostitutes, and the social pariahs. I hang out not just with the Catholics but with the atheists and the Protestants (NOT to say that Protestants are whores or pariahs, y’all, , please don’t misunderstand me ) and the non denominationals and so on.

Beng, it becomes increasingly clear to me that NO amount of discussion will change your mind about the Charismatic renewal, and that’s OK. I will continue to post replies and links as the conversation goes on, primarily for those who might be lurking. I neither expect you to reply nor expect you to read and respond. May God bless you and lead you to deeper love for Him.

I recommend to everyone the book by Archbishop Paul Josef Cordes, “Call to Holiness: Reflections on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.” available from Liturgucal Press, Collegeville, Minnesota

Do you really understand the Catholic Faith?

When you’re in mortal sin you CUT YOURSELF from the grace of God. THIS IS “DE FIDE”!

Your relationship with God is OFF in an intimate way (Not totally because no being or even “things” can’t be seperated with God completely because He’s the one who sustain all things). Thus, the infamous Protestant sugar coated “personal relationship with Jesus” is wrong just because Protestant is in the state of heresy.

When you’re NOT in the state of Grace your other prayers, beside ones that impel you to seek reconciliation to the one true church, ARE USELESS (do read your Baltimore Catechism).

First thing first. One must be united with the Body of Christ aka the Catholic Church before one can have such profound relationship with God (ex: speaking the words of God).

Learn the faith and not base your judgment on mere “feeling,” which is what I’ve seen in your post above.

 

[beng]

And NO.

No one outside the Catholic Church is a part of the Body of Christ!!

DO NOT follow the erroneous notion developped by Protestantism that all churches (Ex: Lutheran, Orthodox, Pentacostal etc) are the Body of Christ operating in a different ways.

Oh man, the bad shape of today Catechesize…