Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

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Sacraments of :
BAPTISM,
CONFIRMATION,
RECONCILIATION,
HOLY EUCHARIST,
Code: 
                     Use Reconciliation, and Holy Eucharist              OFTEN...the Holy Spirit will be glad you did! The most precious gifts received in sanctifying grace !  :thumbsup:  

       nuff  said   ;)
 
Good Morning Church

Good Morning Beng,

Beng, am I to understand you are comparing a Praise and Worship Prayer Meeting to fornication or child abuse? You think you are to judge it the same way?

I do not like to quote scripture for one reason. It is usually taken out of context and often not understood as you have accused me. The fact is, the scripture you posted in I Corinthinas was when Paul was expressing dismay that Christians were taking each other before Roman Courts. also, please read the remainder of that teaching.

7 Now indeed (then) it is, in any case, a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 Instead, you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. 9 2 3 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Instead, I would refer you to Jesus teaching from the gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7
1 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. 2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. 3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye? 5 You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye
 
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beng:
Do you think any document coming out of Vatican are authoritative?

And saying that any other entity than Catholic Church is part of the Body Of Christ just prove how poorly Catechizes you are. Read teh encyclicals from Pius XII and decree of the Council of Orange above!!

I wouldn’;t say (non Catholics can be) Christian in the full sense of the word. Only a true Catholic can be a true Christian.
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This has degenerated into an “I’m in and you’re out” squabble, far removed from the original topic of the thread, which was to seek an understanding of what is meant by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Or as it is known in most of the world, the Outpouring of The Holy Spirit, which IMHO is a far better terminology, less misleading as it gets rid of the sacramental connotation.)

I believe that the Holy Spirit is alive and well and living in the people of God. I believe that some of those people are given gifts like healing, teaching, prophecy, and words of knowledge, and yes, tongues too, a lesser gift but still a gift. I believe that putting my hands on someone’s shoulders/back/knee/arm/hands as I pray for them is no sin, and certainly does NOT mean that I think I’m a priest ( for one thing, I’m a woman!) . Tt is my opinion that the Lord wants us to be active in prayer and in good works, and that He gives us grace, strength,. and direction through the Seven sacraments of the Church, through a consistent prayer life, through dialogue with our brothers and sisters in the faith, and through His Holy Spirit.

I do NOT expect everyone to become Charismatic, and I recognize that, like all lay apostolates, this one too has its issues and problems along with its strengths and fruits.

I believe my Protestant brothers and sisters are indeed members of His family, though I regret that they eat only parts of the vast feast He has given us and hear only some of the instruments of His glorious orchestra of Faith.

Beng, I doubt I’ll ever convince you and I doubt you’ll ever convince me. Luckily, there’s room for both of us in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. 👍 Amen.
 
Greetings Church
I do not understand the out and out hostility I have seen here against the Charismatic Renewal. In some cases it seems just too personal.
I have known anti Catholics who were wounded by someone in the Church. I wonder if that is the reason.
Most people don’t demand that everything must run just the way they want it in the Church.
The Charismatics I have known seem to realize the Church is big enough to embrace everyone.
 
I have wanted to learn more about the Charismatic movement for a long time, mainly because of the fine Spirit-filled people I have met at Steubenville, but if the mean-spiritedness characterizing the exchanges in this thread are representative of Charismatics in general I think I will stay in my native language, English and forgo tongues for the present. I will start a new thread with my question on baptism of the Spirit since this thread seems to have come unraveled.
 
Baptism of the Holy Spirit when defined as being something different or a more complete infusion of the Holy Spirit than the sanctify graces a Christian receives at Baptism is at best an error but in all likelihood a heresy.

Avoid anyone who teaches you that they know of another way to receive God’s sanctifying graces outside of the Sacraments, such as a so-called baptism of the spirit for they lie to you.

Only the Catholic Church’s Magisterium can provide assurances regarding the saving life of your communion with God. The church knows of no other way to obtain sanctifying life outside of the Sacraments. Under the guidance of The Holy Spirit the church was moved away from these gifts as a central focus of our gatherings. These gifts have never left the church but they are what they are, gifts, and not something to be sought after.

The Holy Spirit led the church from these gifts to the full understanding of the sacraments. It is reprobate practice to now say that the Sacraments that save are not fulfilling enough for your spirituality and that you want to have an actual grace instead.

I have even noticed that the a recent CCCB document (Canadian Bishops are about as liberal as the church gets) on Charismatics is openly critical of their excesses and abuses, they even go so far as to say the leadership of the charismatics are stale, domineering and stifling to the spirit. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Placing your spiritual life in the hands of such people is not worth the risk to your spirituality. Classical spiritual exercises lead by a competent spiritual director or praying in the Lecto Divina style is more beneficial to your spiritual development then involving yourself in any self styled 1970’s charismatic group.

God Bless
 
Good Morning Church

Good Morning Deacon,

Deacon, I am interested in what you think about the Holy Fathers support and encouragement of the Charismatic Renewal? He has said that the Church has seen many good fruits as a result.

You have made very sweeping condemnations of a whole lot of folks who want to be obedient to Holy Mother Church.

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It is a misrepresentation to claim that the patristic fathers encouraged a spiritual practice, which took form in the 1970’s i.e. the Charismatic Renewal. To pretend that the current practices of these prayer groups are facsimiles and in some way identical to what the early church fathers experienced is simply wishful thinking on the part of those who conduct charismatic seminars.

The historical documentation of these manifestations is rare at best and at times quite unsupportive of the practice. Even when we read our bibles we can see Holy Spirit, through Paul, was already suppressing the prayer practice outside of sacramental life.

Rarely did legitimate manifestations occur in the apostolic age without the presence of a sacrament being conferred yet today almost all charismatic pray groups operate independent of church leadership and sacramental liturgy.

Finally my previous post does not make a sweeping condemnation of those who want to be faithful to the Church but only presents the teachings of the church that unhesitantly proclaims the infinitely superior spirituality of the sacramental life. I have also indicated some of the major concerns that some bishops have found with these self styled charismatic groups.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit have always been present in the Church but there can be no doubt that over the centuries the Holy Spirit has lead us to the fullness of sacramental life.
No faithful Catholic can deny that the source and summit of our spiritual life is found in the sacraments and the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Sacrament of Baptism.

God Bless

PS I am not a deacon yet
 
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robertaf:
I am interested in what you think about the Holy Fathers support and encouragement of the Charismatic Renewal? He has said that the Church has seen many good fruits as a result.
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My goodness after writting a post about the relationship of the Baptism in the Spirit and the early church fathers I see that I misread your post completely. My apologies.

I have read many positive statements from the pope and the other bishops about Charismatic prayer groups. Only the most foolish around us would deny the charisms of the Holy Spirit and try to squelch prayer to God. However that does not prevent these same shepherds from also cautioning against inappropriate theology or malformed spiritual development. It would be unreasonable to conclude that any general statement of praise for charismatic prayer groups from the pope is an endorsement of the spiritual practices in every local prayer group.

It is the abuses and excesses that I have tried to address by my comments and I have noted earlier that many bishops have taken note of them as well. I specifically take exception to the notion that Baptism of the the Holy Spirit has meaning apart from sacramental baptism. I affrim whole heartedly that the church has never lost the gifts of the Holy Spirit and every Christain has an infallible assurity that these gifts are found in superabundance in the scaraments.

God Bless
 
Greetings Church

Greetings Deacon 🙂

No need to apoligize for your earlier post, I enjoyed it and learned from it.

Brother, I am a convert to the Catholic faith (1955). If I had judged the entire Catholic Church by the loony Catholics I have known, I would still be a Protestant.

If I had judged Marian devotions by the excesses and abuses I have seen, I would run as fast as I could from praying the Rosary.

I have been a Charismatic Catholic for almost 35 years, as I have posted before. In that time, human and sinful as we are, you and I and the entire Christian Church knows there have been excesses and abuses.
However, in my experience, and for me personally, the Charismatic Renewal has brought us into a closer relationship with the Sacraments, especially the Holy Eucharist and Confession and have made us more subissive and obedient to Holy Mother Church. This is what we teach. If this is not happening, it is not valid Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

I know we look different to many of you. We may even look very foolish because we worship and praise God in an uninhibited way, using different body language. Just think though.
The Catholic Church has been rich in body language and symbolic gestures that look very strange to non Catholics.

I am a convert. The genuflecting, striking the breast, ringing of bells, chanting all seem weird to folks who aren’t use to it.
Even the sign of the cross is seen as purely Catholic and avoided by non Catholic Christians.

Jesus’ Church,Praise God, is big enough to embrace us all.
Look for the fruits. Whether it is way over to the Latin or way over to the opposit to the Charismatics,… By their fruits you will know them.

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robertaf:
I know we look different to many of you. We may even look very foolish because we worship and praise God in an uninhibited way, using different body language. Just think though.
The Catholic Church has been rich in body language and symbolic gestures that look very strange to non Catholics.

I am a convert. The genuflecting, striking the breast, ringing of bells, chanting all seem weird to folks who aren’t use to it.
Even the sign of the cross is seen as purely Catholic and avoided by non Catholic Christians.
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In some ways it is this openess to a “fuller” worship that first drew me to Catholicism itself. Catholic worship involves the WHOLE BODY, the mind, the eyes, the ears, the mouth, everything. We kneel, stand, sit, move forward, kneel some more.

Many Protestant denominations reject things which are corporal or sensual, not in the terms of sexuality but in terms of being related to the body’s senses. As an example, compare the inside of a traditional Catholic church (stained glass, arched architecture, candles, statues, choir loft, organ, gorgeous woordwork, etc) with the inside of a standard Baptist church (clean lines, no paintings or statues, no frills or embellishments, no realistic stained glass (geometric appears to be accepted in some places) . Then compare the “smells and bells” we have to the lack thereof in most Baptist services.

I think in a Catholic Mass I can worship God with every part of me. Perhaps that is also part of what appeals to me personally about the Charismatic movement, that ability to worship God with every part of me, not just with my mouth but with my whole body.
 
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