Baptism

[TNT]

oudave:

As I have responded in other reply’s I attend a nondenominational church. We are simply, Christians. We look to the Bible only as our guidence. We are Christ centered.

Christ was the only baby that was immaculately conceived.

It is the blood of Christ that washes away sin.

Very well, tell me what nondenominational church believes in
“BAPTISM IS NECECCARY TO REMOVE SIN?”
You’ve already stated that it is necessary for this.
And do you go to a church service on Sunday?
If so what does the sign in front of it say?
How is it listed in the phone book?
You still won’t answer !
What does immaculately conceived mean, OUDAVE, exactly?

 

[Fiat]

Hi Oudave

You said:

I didn’t say that God LOVES the pope more than you or I, but I know some catholics that almost worship the man. My inlaws are all catholic.
I know that I’m not ignorant nor unstable,

Jam 1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to everyone generously without a rebuke, and it will be given to him.

So when protestants themselves disagree about the nature of baptism, the necessity of laying on of hands, the purpose of communion, etc., it is just because they have not asked for wisdom?

I’m not sure your position is very tenable. I have asked the Lord for wisdom, and I suspect you have too, but we are obviously not in agreement on certain items. So…who is correct?

In faith,
Fiat

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

Fiat:

Hi Oudave:

The issue is not whether God loves the Pope more than He loves your or me. The issue is whether you can assure yourself that your interpretation of scripture is correct. 2 Pet 3:16 states that with regard to scripture, “In them, there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

The question you should ask yourself is whether you are, in some way, exempt from this Bible verse. It seems clear to me that Jesus gave the ability of interpreting scriptures correctly in Matthew 16, beginning in verse 16. I nowhere see that I or you were given this ability.

In Jesus,Fiat

I didn’t say that God LOVES the pope more than you or I, but I know some catholics that almost worship the man. My inlaws are all catholic.
I know that I’m not ignorant nor unstable,

Jam 1:5

Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to everyone generously without a rebuke, and it will be given to him.

In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
Your inlaws love the Pope because he is a holy man who is devoted to God,that is a far cry from worship.Coincedentaly all holiness comes from God the Pope did not become Holy on his own.God Bless

 

[TNT]

oudave:

We look to the Bible only as our guidence. …

Come now, OUDAVE, give us the Bible verse on that. Is that biblical?
Doesn’t your bible (wherever it came from) say “Take it to the CHURCH…”
What Church? Exactly. If you are biblical, then you have a CHURCH that can speak on matters of disagreement. Your bible is too clear on that!
Or do you just walk into any church and have it speak to you? Settle any disagreement, like Infant Bapt.
Does your bible have the Epistle to the Hebrews?
If so, who, exactly put it there.?
What authority did he claim for doing so?
These are all questions I asked you long ago.
Still no Answer.
Doesn’t your bible say to be honest and “contend for the faith that is in you…”?

 

[Philthy]

SPOKENWORD:

Sorry C. M. Again you disagree with me.Im sorry my comments go against your belief system,But I am not God. Is God bound by His promises? What do you think? So when God said He will never Flood the earth again,WILL HE? God Bless

God is bound to His promises.
He is not limited by them though.
For example, if God promises that if you are baptised you will have your sin “washed away”, then he is bound to wash away the sins of those who are baptized. He can, however, choose to wash away the sins of someone independent of baptism if He so choses because although He is bound to fulfill His promise, He is not bound by that promise.

Phil

 

[oudave]

TNT:

Very well, tell me what nondenominational church believes in
“BAPTISM IS NECECCARY TO REMOVE SIN?”
You’ve already stated that it is necessary for this.
And do you go to a church service on Sunday?
If so what does the sign in front of it say?
How is it listed in the phone book?
You still won’t answer !
What does immaculately conceived mean, OUDAVE, exactly?

We are an autonomous church:

1. 
   *]Not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent: an autonomous judiciary; an autonomous division of a corporate conglomerate.
   *]Independent in mind or judgment; self-directed.
   *]
   1. • Independent of the laws of another state or government; self-governing.
        *]Of or relating to a self-governing entity: an autonomous legislature.
        *]Self-governing with respect to local or internal affairs.
        

           In other words we don't have other churches telling us what we should or should not believe. If we belonged to a denomination that decided it was ok to worship idols then we would have to fall in line with that belief in order to stay in that denomination.

        We go to the scriptures about how we should run our church.
        We use the King James Bible.
        
        We have 2 services on sunday morning and youth group on wednesday night. We also have many small group Bible studys during the week.
        
        It says on the front door and in the phone book: Benson Street Church of Christ. And NO we are not affiliated with any of the Church of Christ denominations.
        In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[TNT]

oudave:

Think for yourselves, it’s ok. There is nothing wrong with thinking for yourself when it comes to scripture. I pray for God to help me understand his word, and He answers that prayer.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

Very well then, I too “I pray for God to help me understand his word, and He answers that prayer.”
If He gives me a different answer, and opposed to yours, or anyone else, then what do we do???
That was another question I asked long ago of you.
Still no answer.
Yes Catholics do think for themselves.
I’ll give you a short analogy:
The sheep (Catholics) are encouraged to feed on the rich green pasture (bible), but the Shepherd (the historical authorized Teachers) restrains them (as he must to fulfill his responsibilty) from breaking down the fence of the pasture, and feeding on loco weeds (false interpretations) and killing themselves.
He is also to banish the woves who break into the pasture for ALL times:
Matthew 7 :15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
The sheep are not to be:
Ephesians 4 :14 …children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (loco weeds) by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.(Those who persuaded you into your condition.)

That, in a short analogy is the Catholic position.
Now, prove to us that Peter is your Shepherd as the Lord says:
John 21:17 He said to him the** third time**: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
A shepherd FEEDS and RULES the sheep. PETER: THUS SAITH THE LORD!
Tell me, how, exactly is Peter feeding you today?
After all he only wrote 2 little books and maybe not both of them, unless you can prove infallibly that he wrote them?
If you don’t follow Peter, you are feeding on “every wind of doctrine” !

---

 

[TNT]

oudave:

I know that I’m not ignorant nor unstable,

Jam 1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to everyone generously without a rebuke, and it will be given to him.

In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

Really, prove that you have asked God ENOUGH. And if you did, then we talking to you may well be HIS answer! Can you prove infallibly, otherwise?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

We are an autonomous church:

1. 
   *]Not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent: an autonomous judiciary; an autonomous division of a corporate conglomerate.
   *]Independent in mind or judgment; self-directed.
   1. 
      *]
      • Independent of the laws of another state or government; self-governing.
        *]Of or relating to a self-governing entity: an autonomous legislature.
        *]Self-governing with respect to local or internal affairs.
        In other words we don’t have other churches telling us what we should or should not believe. If we belonged to a denomination that decided it was ok to worship idols then we would have to fall in line with that belief in order to stay in that denomination.
        
        We go to the scriptures about how we should run our church.
        We use the King James Bible.
        
        We have 2 services on sunday morning and youth group on wednesday night. We also have many small group Bible studys during the week.
        
        It says on the front door and in the phone book: Benson Street Church of Christ. And NO we are not affiliated with any of the Church of Christ denominations.
        In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

1. 1. 
      I grew up in that kind of Church of Christ too I am glad to be Catholic(and by the way we don’t worship idols) The Bible is a Holy and inspired book which contains the Word of God,the Word became Flesh and Jesus is in fact Who we worship. Just a little,information for you so you may not be mislead into unfounded accusations against the Holy Catholic Churcdh Who was founded by Christ.God Bless

 

[TNT]

oudave:

We are an autonomous church:
We use the King James Bible.

We have 2 services on sunday morning and youth group on wednesday night. We also have many small group Bible studys during the week.

It says on the front door and in the phone book: Benson Street Church of Christ.

THANK THANK YOU SO MUCH! Now that was not so hard was it?
LISA4… was a good member of a COC.

BTW: Why would you use a bible published by an ANGLICAN KING? You realise he was head of a Denomination?? One that you rebuke for he practiced infant baptism! Thus certifying it as in full conformity with HIS publication.

 

[TNT]

oudave:

We are an autonomous church:
We use the King James Bible.

We have 2 services on sunday morning and youth group on wednesday night. We also have many small group Bible studys during the week.

It says on the front door and in the phone book: Benson Street Church of Christ.

THANK THANK YOU SO MUCH! Now that was not so hard was it?
LISA4… was a good member of a COC.

BTW: Why would you use a bible published by an ANGLICAN KING? You realise he was head of a Denomination?? One that you rebuke for he practiced infant baptism! How could he be infallible in publishing your bible, and be sinning against God by “pouring” baptism on little babies. As he is sinning and offending God, he’s giving you your bible ! WOW! The Lord must NOT have answer his prayer, right?
While you are giving us the infallible interpretation of your bible, please tell us exactly what this means:

Jn 6:56-58 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

 

[WhatIf]

oudave:

Two things here, First of all you are assuming that where ever it says household or all his family, that there were children present.

You are assuming there are not children in a household and considering there was no birth control isn’t this a big assumption.

Acts 2:38 says Repent and be Baptized, can a child repent?
It says Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins

So this says baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. Why do you assume that it means every one of you repent instead of everyone of you be baptized? You could be right if you go just by the grammar used or you could be wrong. How do you know if he is saying everyone should be baptised or not?

Also, you are now assuming there are children and they are telling children to repent. Which is it, are they talking to/about children or not? If the children were there when they say everyone or household then they were baptised right?The household was baptised. If children were not there, then how can they have been told to repent?

Two of my children were ready at 9 and the other at 11 years. Why is it you that decides when they should be baptized instead of scripture? Where does scripture tell children that they must repent or where does it warn parents not to baptize until the children do repent.

Our confirmation come’s when we profess our faith in Christ, We are then Baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You say that infant Baptism washes away original sin, I believe that it is the blood of Christ that washes away sin.

Acts 2:38 says baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. Don’t you see that in your Bible? You can believe what you want, but you aren’t proving your beliefs are scriptural. They seem to be your opinion. It is your opinion that one child is ready a 9 and another at 11 yrs. old. Where is the apostolic tradition on this?

 

[TNT]

oudave:

We are an autonomous church:

1. 
   *]Not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent: an autonomous judiciary;
   In other words we don’t have other churches telling us what we should or should not believe.

1. 
   Didn’t the Corintian Church have that same idea, and Paul set them straight on several occasions?
   Was Paul part of one local church, or did he have a “multi-church” membership. He did have AUTHORITY over MANY local churches. That is a Pattern of THE True Church. Not autonomous and independent thinkers.
   From there, Paul gets 3 months of instruction from CEPHAS to get approval of his teachings.
   Then again, when he could not persuade one of his MANY local churches, He goes up to Jerusalem to get another ruling from CEPHAS, the final authority on the matter. He goes back with a letter from CEPHAS and JAMES, who are NOT members of that local church, and CEPHAS’ authority for getting them to submit to CEPHAS’ ruling.
   The Catholic Church, and ONLY the Catholic Church follows that biblical pattern to this day, unbroken.
   “FEED MY SHEEP”, PETER. Thus saith the Lord!
   Not FEED only the sheep in Peter’s local church, but ALL the Lord’s sheep. Yes indeed! The Lord says so. The biblical pattern says so.
   Nothing changes from our Scriptures. No one goes off independently to preach there own modern beliefs, no indeed.

 

[oudave]

TNT:

Very well then, I too “I pray for God to help me understand his word, and He answers that prayer.”
If He gives me a different answer, and opposed to yours, or anyone else, then what do we do???
That was another question I asked long ago of you.
Still no answer.
Yes Catholics do think for themselves.
I’ll give you a short analogy:
The sheep (Catholics) are encouraged to feed on the rich green pasture (bible), but the Shepherd (the historical authorized Teachers) restrains them (as he must to fulfill his responsibilty) from breaking down the fence of the pasture, and feeding on loco weeds (false interpretations) and killing themselves.
He is also to banish the woves who break into the pasture for ALL times:
Matthew 7 :15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
The sheep are not to be:
Ephesians 4 :14 …children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (loco weeds) by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive.(Those who persuaded you into your condition.)

That, in a short analogy is the Catholic position.
Now, prove to us that Peter is your Shepherd as the Lord says:
John 21:17 He said to him the** third time**: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.
A shepherd FEEDS and RULES the sheep. PETER: THUS SAITH THE LORD!
Tell me, how, exactly is Peter feeding you today?
After all he only wrote 2 little books and maybe not both of them, unless you can prove infallibly that he wrote them?
If you don’t follow Peter, you are feeding on “every wind of doctrine” !

I totaly disagree with you, catholics as a whole are not encouraged to read the Bible. My wife comes from a long line of catholics, from a large family. We have had many conversations about the subject. Her family call’s us Bible thumpers, I wear that label proudly. The leaders of the catholic church remind me so much of the pharasees written in scripture. I consider them to be the wolves that are leading the church astray. Following the Bible only does not sound like being carried about by every wind of doctrine to me.
Now i will give you a short analogy.
Remember when your teacher would tell the first student in a row a story, he was then told to pass it back, by the time it reached the other side of the room. the last student’s story was way different than the first. Thats what has happened to the catholic church, things have been changed so much that its way off base.
That is why we Bible thumpers are so adement to the Bible only teaching’s.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

 

[Fiat]

Dear Oudave:

It’s off the mark for you to accuse the Catholic Church of discouraging us Catholics from reading the Bible. When I first met my priest to tell him I was interested in converting, the first thing he told me to do was to read the Gospels! I assure you that I am a BIBLE-THUMPING CATHOLIC!!! Ironically, the protestant church I was born and raised in was the church that discouraged independent bible reading. I guess they thought I would discover the truth…They were right! That’s why I’m Catholic!

Also, as for the classroom exercise in which a student whispers a story into another student’s ear and passes the story down to others…I used to teach high school English and Speech. I used this exercise only a couple times because more often than not, the story ended exactly the same way the story began.

What is your point in all of this, exactly?

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

 

[cove]

oudave:

I totaly disagree with you, catholics as a whole are not encouraged to read the Bible. My wife comes from a long line of catholics, from a large family. We have had many conversations about the subject. Her family call’s us Bible thumpers, I wear that label proudly. The leaders of the catholic church remind me so much of the pharasees written in scripture. I consider them to be the wolves that are leading the church astray. Following the Bible only does not sound like being carried about by every wind of doctrine to me.
Now i will give you a short analogy.
Remember when your teacher would tell the first student in a row a story, he was then told to pass it back, by the time it reached the other side of the room. the last student’s story was way different than the first. Thats what has happened to the catholic church, things have been changed so much that its way off base.
That is why we Bible thumpers are so adement to the Bible only teaching’s.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

You are confusing what the Church teaches with those so called wolves you refer to. There maybe shepards who have gone astray but the teachings of the Church never change.

I can understand your wife’s family. My brother and his wife were converts to the Baptist religion. I could see why they would be defensive toward you. I heard all the same arguments coming from those who thought they knew the bible.

You are so very wrong when you say that Catholics are not encouraged to read the bible. We most certainly are. In my life time I have probably read the entire bible several times. We read the bible every time we go to Mass. God’s word is always present. The priest"s sermons are based on the scripture readings for that day. If I go to Mass everyday, I am reading the bible everyday. But, your claim is a very common one that comes from the ignorant antis.

I am truly sorry that you have been made to stay in such a state of ignorance about the Catholic faith.

I only wish you peace and I pray that someday you will come to know the real Church. The one that Jesus Christ himself gave us.

God bless.

 

[mercygate]

oudave:

I totaly disagree with you, catholics as a whole are not encouraged to read the Bible.

On the contrary, Catholics may receive an indulgence for reading Scripture. Moreover, the Catechism states:

**132 **“Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture.”

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112
134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8L 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9L 176,642-643).
135 “The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God” (DV 24).

136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).

My wife comes from a long line of catholics, from a large family. We have had many conversations about the subject. Her family call’s us Bible thumpers, I wear that label proudly.

They are unkind.

The leaders of the catholic church remind me so much of the pharasees written in scripture. I consider them to be the wolves that are leading the church astray.

I would invite you to learn what the Church really teaches before you judge her. You seem to hold a hundred misconceptions about the Church and her teaching.

. . . Remember when your teacher would tell the first student in a row a story, he was then told to pass it back, by the time it reached the other side of the room. the last student’s story was way different than the first. Thats what has happened to the catholic church, things have been changed so much that its way off base.
That is why we Bible thumpers are so adement to the Bible only teaching’s.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

But the “telephone game” is just that: a game. Sacred Tradition is transmitted with care and deliberation.

You say the Church is wrong for holding to the principle of the whole Word of God – Scripture AND Tradition. Yet to exclude Tradition, which the Church understands as a gift of the Holy Spirit promised to her by Christ on Easter night, is to “lean unto your own understanding.” I submit that to receive Sacred Tradition is a far more scriptural approach to faith than to admit Scripture only.

Many of us who are now Catholic started out where you are now but discovered that Scripture, without the Church who gave it to us, is like a Mercedes Benz without the key: the only way you can go with it is downhill.

 

[WhatIf]

oudave:

I totaly disagree with you, catholics as a whole are not encouraged to read the Bible. My wife comes from a long line of catholics, from a large family. We have had many conversations about the subject. Her family call’s us Bible thumpers, I wear that label proudly. The leaders of the catholic church remind me so much of the pharasees written in scripture. I consider them to be the wolves that are leading the church astray. Following the Bible only does not sound like being carried about by every wind of doctrine to me.
Now i will give you a short analogy.
Remember when your teacher would tell the first student in a row a story, he was then told to pass it back, by the time it reached the other side of the room. the last student’s story was way different than the first. Thats what has happened to the catholic church, things have been changed so much that its way off base.
That is why we Bible thumpers are so adement to the Bible only teaching’s.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

Have you heard about the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You could think of it as a reference book for Catholic beliefs. One benefit of having it is so YOU and any other misinformed person can SEE FOR THEMSELVES what the Church is teaching instead of relying on rumors. Please read below what I have pasted from the Catechism. Also, we would be more friendly, if you inform yourself of our beliefs through reading the catechism and then have an honest debate about it instead of throwing out things that you’ve been told as fact. We are all guilty of believing rumors. You fell for the one that says we are discouraged to read the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God written by inspired authors. The Church has protected it for thousands of years now. We are encouraged to read scripture. read below. It is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Tell us what you think after you read it.

**V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH **

131 “And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigour, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life.” 109 Hence “access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful.” 110

132 “Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture.” 111 133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful… to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. 112

oudave, how about that? You can agree that Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ, can’t you? How about that part about frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Shocking, eh? They may not mean to do it, but you have people misleading you about the Catholic Church. Try to inform yourself and then see what you think. If the Catholic Church was what misinformed people thought it was, as I have said before, no Christian would belong to it. You would be right to stay away from a Church that taught us not to read the Bible or one that worshipped idols or one that didn’t accept Jesus as our Savior. The Church doesn’t believe any of that garbage that is spread about her. Check out the catechism. I know there is a link to it on www.salvationhistory.com with is a BIBLE STUDY website.

As a fellow Christian, I love your desire to live according to God’s will. We share this. If you get rid of the misunderstanding, we have more in common that you think.

 

[WhatIf]

oudave:

Yes I am studying my Bible. Why would I need a book other than the Bible to show me the truth? What is a Magisterium? probably a book written by the church leaders telling you what to believe. Phil 2:12 tell’s us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Think for yourselves, it’s ok. There is nothing wrong with thinking for yourself when it comes to scripture. I pray for God to help me understand his word, and He answers that prayer.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif

What is a Magisterium? Now that is a good question. It is what you do not have. It is the teaching authority of the Church. I don’t have time to expand now, but it is what prevent having false teachings. It is the opposite of having many different belief systems. Others on here can describe it much better than me, but it is the teaching authority given to the Church by Jesus Christ.

 

[oudave]

mercygate:

On the contrary, Catholics may receive an indulgence for reading Scripture. Moreover, the Catechism states:

They are unkind.

I would invite you to learn what the Church really teaches before you judge her. You seem to hold a hundred misconceptions about the Church and her teaching.

But the “telephone game” is just that: a game. Sacred Tradition is transmitted with care and deliberation.

You say the Church is wrong for holding to the principle of the whole Word of God – Scripture AND Tradition. Yet to exclude Tradition, which the Church understands as a gift of the Holy Spirit promised to her by Christ on Easter night, is to “lean unto your own understanding.” I submit that to receive Sacred Tradition is a far more scriptural approach to faith than to admit Scripture only.

Many of us who are now Catholic started out where you are now but discovered that Scripture, without the Church who gave it to us, is like a Mercedes Benz without the key: the only way you can go with it is downhill.

Could you please explain to me what you mean by catholic’s recieving an indulgence by reading scripture?
Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif