Baptism

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Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.” John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation. as a mother of a 4 year old i feel that is my responsibility not only to fulfill his physical needs but also his spiritual needs too. i baptized my son an now iam taking him to mass also we pray together. an in this times i think we need god in our lives. god bless 🙂
 
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oudave:
Show me in scripture where anyone Baptized children. and don’t assume anything because when we assume, it makes a a a a, well you know what I mean.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Acts Ch. 16
15] And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

31] And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32] And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house.
33] And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.

Verse 31 says he and his household will be saved and then verse 33 says he was baptized WITH ALL HIS FAMILY, so don’t ASSUME that this means All HIS FAMILY was not baptized and that only the ones that are a certain age. Show me scripture that tells us what age is ok to baptise our children. For how long do we hold them back from being washed clean of original sin. NO ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE AGE PLEASE, I want the scripture, the verse that tells us what age is appropriate for baptism.

Luke 18:16
16] But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the** children** come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Are you letting the children come to Him, if you prevent their baptism? You know, we do have confirmation which is done later at the age of reason. Baptism as an infant, but confirmation is when the child professes his faith and is then committed to being “a soldier for Christ”. I’m not sure of the best way to word it since I became Catholic as an adult, but since we do have a confirmation, there is no need to wait on baptism. Do you have a confirmation at an age that the child realized their commitment to living a Christian life? What age is it?

Also, have you shown us any scripture that says do not baptize infants without assuming it means no baptism? Are babies born with original sin, if you believe so, then why would they be forced to live with this sin until a certain age? Why not wash them of this sin?

  1. *]
 
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WhatIf:
… Do you have a confirmation at an age that the child realized their commitment to living a Christian life? What age is it?

Also, have you shown us any scripture that says do not baptize infants without assuming it means no baptism?
**Are babies born with original sin, if you believe so, then why would they be forced to live with this sin until a certain age? ** Why not wash them of this sin?
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OUDAVE is a COC member or affiliate. They do NOT believe in Original Sin.
BTW:
OUDAVE has about 15 unanswered questions on this thread which he has yet to address. You just added some more.
One question asks what Church he attends, is it Churches-of-Christ?
Many days and no answer.
OUDAVE just has a 1-track mind: Babies can die unbaptized because they are ALL immaculately conceived.
Ain’t that right OUDAVE?
Finally, OUDAVE does believe in Baptism=remission of ACTUAL sin.
 
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oudave:
Where is it written in scripture that everything about Jesus was not put into scripture? Is there a verse that sayes read the sequel ?

I think that if Mary would have been assumed, God would have let know. It wouldn’t bother me if Mary had been assumed to Heaven,
it’s just that scripture doesn’t say it, once again follow the written word of God and oral tradition that has been handed down by God. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
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You say to follow the written word of God and oral tradition that has been handed down by God. Since you are not Catholic, I wonder what oral traditions you believe are handed down by God and which oral traditions are not handed down by God and what part of scripture tell us this or how did God tell us which oral traditions are handed down by Him?
I agree with you about following the Bible and oral tradition, but what if you didn’t have a written Bible, then what would you base your faith on. The Bible didn’t always exist, but we still had Christians, even without a Bible.

Lets say that you lived prior to the printing press and before there were many copies of scripture or lets say before the Bible. Lets say that you lived within the first 100 yrs. of Jesus’ death and you were Christian. How would you have known what oral “traditions” were true and which ones were not? How would you have known what Christians believed or what a Christian should do? Think about it - no Bible yet, so how would you become a Christian? Would you believe and do anything that any stranger said to do in the name of Jesus Christ? Would you want some proof that the teachings are correct? The apostolic line would be some proof wouldn’t it? You’d want to know who the apostles were and if the stranger at the door had any affiliation with them, wouldn’t you?

Think of your ancestors about 1800 years ago. Do you think they were Christian? If they were, then they were Catholic weren’t they? They didn’t have the Bible, were they still saved? You assume a lot to say that you follow the Bible and not the authority of the apostolic line of succesion - the Pope.

I appreciate your desire to keep your beliefs pure and free of any deceptive things that people may tell you, but if you believe in the Bible, then you have to believe in Church Authority.

Matt. 18:
15] "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
17] **If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
**18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is in the Bible, do you listen to THE CHURCH? If not, why? It is in scripture to do so. If you do follow the church, how do you know which church to follow? Wouldn’t God have made it clear to us which Church to listen to? Jesus says to listen to the church without telling us which one?
 
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TNT:
OUDAVE is a COC member or affiliate. They do NOT believe in Original Sin.
BTW:
OUDAVE has about 15 unanswered questions on this thread which he has yet to address. You just added some more.
One question asks what Church he attends, is it Churches-of-Christ?
Many days and no answer.
OUDAVE just has a 1-track mind: Babies can die unbaptized because they are ALL immaculately conceived.
Ain’t that right OUDAVE?
Finally, OUDAVE does believe in Baptism=remission of ACTUAL sin.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, he isn’t answering because he is busy studying his Bible and trying to figure out what it means. He is all alone on this, I suppose since he has no Magisterium to guide him to correct teachings. It is good that he is searching the Bible because Catholicism is scriptural and he just may learn this the hard way. At least he will be sure of it through much studying. IF he blocks out those who will mislead him, then Jesus will surely lead him to His Church, right?
 
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WhatIf:
Acts Ch. 16
15] And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

31] And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32] And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house.
33] And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.

Verse 31 says he and his household will be saved and then verse 33 says he was baptized WITH ALL HIS FAMILY, so don’t ASSUME that this means All HIS FAMILY was not baptized and that only the ones that are a certain age. Show me scripture that tells us what age is ok to baptise our children. For how long do we hold them back from being washed clean of original sin. NO ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE AGE PLEASE, I want the scripture, the verse that tells us what age is appropriate for baptism.

Luke 18:16
16] But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the** children** come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Are you letting the children come to Him, if you prevent their baptism? You know, we do have confirmation which is done later at the age of reason. Baptism as an infant, but confirmation is when the child professes his faith and is then committed to being “a soldier for Christ”. I’m not sure of the best way to word it since I became Catholic as an adult, but since we do have a confirmation, there is no need to wait on baptism. Do you have a confirmation at an age that the child realized their commitment to living a Christian life? What age is it?

Also, have you shown us any scripture that says do not baptize infants without assuming it means no baptism? Are babies born with original sin, if you believe so, then why would they be forced to live with this sin until a certain age? Why not wash them of this sin?
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Two things here, First of all you are assuming that where ever it says household or all his family, that there were children present.
Acts 2:38 says Repent and be Baptized, can a child repent? does a child even know what repent means? adults cant even get it right. The maturity level of children are different, some understand at 5 years old and some not till 10 or 12. Ask a child why they were baptized and most will tell you because my mom and dad had me Baptized or the church says I’m supposed to. And no I don’t believe that if a child who has not been baptized dies go’s to hell. If you were 4 years old and broke out your neibors window they don’t throw you in jail for vandelism, because you are not yet of responsible age. Two of my children were ready at 9 and the other at 11 years. Our confirmation come’s when we profess our faith in Christ, We are then Baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You say that infant Baptism washes away original sin, I believe that it is the blood of Christ that washes away sin.

In the account you are pointing to in Luke 18:16 refers to people bringing there children to Jesus so he could lay hands on them, but the disiples started to rebuke the parents. Jesus is telling the disiples to let the children come to him. You can also read about the account in Mathew 19:13-14 and in Mark 10:13-14.
In Him, Dave.
 
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TNT:
OUDAVE is a COC member or affiliate. They do NOT believe in Original Sin.
BTW:
OUDAVE has about 15 unanswered questions on this thread which he has yet to address. You just added some more.
One question asks what Church he attends, is it Churches-of-Christ?
Many days and no answer.
OUDAVE just has a 1-track mind: Babies can die unbaptized because they are ALL immaculately conceived.
Ain’t that right OUDAVE?
Finally, OUDAVE does believe in Baptism=remission of ACTUAL sin.
Click to expand...
As I have responded in other reply’s I attend a nondenominational church. We are simply, Christians. We look to the Bible only as our guidence. We are Christ centered.

Christ was the only baby that was immaculately conceived.

It is the blood of Christ that washes away sin.
 
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oudave:
Two things here, First of all you are assuming that where ever it says household or all his family, that there were children present.
Acts 2:38 says Repent and be Baptized, can a child repent? does a child even know what repent means? adults cant even get it right. The maturity level of children are different, some understand at 5 years old and some not till 10 or 12. Ask a child why they were baptized and most will tell you because my mom and dad had me Baptized or the church says I’m supposed to. And no I don’t believe that if a child who has not been baptized dies go’s to hell. If you were 4 years old and broke out your neibors window they don’t throw you in jail for vandelism, because you are not yet of responsible age. Two of my children were ready at 9 and the other at 11 years. Our confirmation come’s when we profess our faith in Christ, We are then Baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You say that infant Baptism washes away original sin, I believe that it is the blood of Christ that washes away sin.

In the account you are pointing to in Luke 18:16 refers to people bringing there children to Jesus so he could lay hands on them, but the disiples started to rebuke the parents. Jesus is telling the disiples to let the children come to him. You can also read about the account in Mathew 19:13-14 and in Mark 10:13-14.
In Him, Dave.
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First, you are assuming the infants or chidren are NOT present,the burden of proof is on you,scripture does not say children or infants were excluded,in fact scriptere says all of the family was babtised.Secondly, you say that the blood of Christ washes away origional sin,the blood of Christ is shed for all sin,look up the meaning and purpose of babtism.You propose that you have to be at the age of reason to be babtised,after you are babtised do you still need to repent?Do you see babtism as a mere symbolic act or does God put power in that sacrament?What are your belifs as far as that is concerned?I am trying what exactly you believe about the action of God through Babtism.God Bless
 
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WhatIf:
Perhaps, he isn’t answering because he is busy studying his Bible and trying to figure out what it means. He is all alone on this, I suppose since he has no Magisterium to guide him to correct teachings. It is good that he is searching the Bible because Catholicism is scriptural and he just may learn this the hard way. At least he will be sure of it through much studying. IF he blocks out those who will mislead him, then Jesus will surely lead him to His Church, right?
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Yes I am studying me Bible. Why would I need a book other than the Bible to show me the truth?
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
 
Dear Oudave:

You said:
Yes I am studying me Bible. Why would I need a book other than the Bible to show me the truth?
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
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I don’t want to get off topic here, but somehow you have to establish for yourself that in fact the Bible is the truth. As Catholics, we do so by acknowledging that Jesus’ Church presents the truth to us, of which Scriptures are a part.

In faith,
Fiat
 
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oudave:
Yes I am studying me Bible. Why would I need a book other than the Bible to show me the truth?
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
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Because your Bible doesn’t speak to you and interperate itself for you:) You are appointing yourself Pope,unknowingly of course.Look at some more websites and different denominations all only use the Bible,but notice the different views even within denominations,even within the so-called non-denominational.God Bless
 
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WhatIf:
Perhaps, he isn’t answering because he is busy studying his Bible and trying to figure out what it means. He is all alone on this, I suppose since he has no Magisterium to guide him to correct teachings. It is good that he is searching the Bible because Catholicism is scriptural and he just may learn this the hard way. At least he will be sure of it through much studying. IF he blocks out those who will mislead him, then Jesus will surely lead him to His Church, right?
Click to expand...
Yes I am studying my Bible. Why would I need a book other than the Bible to show me the truth? What is a Magisterium? probably a book written by the church leaders telling you what to believe. Phil 2:12 tell’s us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Think for yourselves, it’s ok. There is nothing wrong with thinking for yourself when it comes to scripture. I pray for God to help me understand his word, and He answers that prayer.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
First, you are assuming the infants or chidren are NOT present,the burden of proof is on you,scripture does not say children or infants were excluded,in fact scriptere says all of the family was babtised.Secondly, you say that the blood of Christ washes away origional sin,the blood of Christ is shed for all sin,look up the meaning and purpose of babtism.You propose that you have to be at the age of reason to be babtised,after you are babtised do you still need to repent?Do you see babtism as a mere symbolic act or does God put power in that sacrament?What are your belifs as far as that is concerned?I am trying what exactly you believe about the action of God through Babtism.God Bless
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If you read my reply again, I did say that the blood of Christ washes away sin.I didn’t say anything about original sin. Act’s 2:38 describes it very well.

We need to repent every day and, no Baptism is not just symbolic.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Because your Bible doesn’t speak to you and interperate itself for you:) You are appointing yourself Pope,unknowingly of course.Look at some more websites and different denominations all only use the Bible,but notice the different views even within denominations,even within the so-called non-denominational.God Bless
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God speaks to me thru his word. I hope this does not offend you but the pope is no more special than You or I are. He is no closer to God than You or I. We are all children of God and equally loved by our creater.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
 
Hi Oudave:

The issue is not whether God loves the Pope more than He loves your or me. The issue is whether you can assure yourself that your interpretation of scripture is correct. 2 Pet 3:16 states that with regard to scripture, “In them, there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

The question you should ask yourself is whether you are, in some way, exempt from this Bible verse. It seems clear to me that Jesus gave the ability of interpreting scriptures correctly in Matthew 16, beginning in verse 16. I nowhere see that I or you were given this ability.

In Jesus,
Fiat
 
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oudave:
God speaks to me thru his word. I hope this does not offend you but the pope is no more special than You or I are. He is no closer to God than You or I. We are all children of God and equally loved by our creater.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
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I am not offended,but you have to ask yourself a question.Why is God’s word telling people different things?God can neither decieve or be decieved.If God is not telling people different things(which He isn’t,that would be deceptive),then how do you it is God who tells you what scripture means?You must never forget that satan used scripture to try to tempt Our Lord.God Bless
 
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oudave:
God speaks to me thru his word. I hope this does not offend you but the pope is no more special than You or I are.
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Dave, you’re not getting it. The Pope is an ordinary man. He does not receive divine inspiration the way we understand Scripture to be inspired. His special faculties apply to his office and the promise of Christ to preserve the CHURCH from “the gates of hell.” When the Pope is speaking with and for the Church (after diligent study and prayer), he exercises those special faculties.
He is no closer to God than You or I. We are all children of God and equally loved by our creater.
In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
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Yes, Dave. We ARE all children of God, loved by the Creator. But I’m pretty sure that there a LOT of people who are holier than I, closer to God than I – “special” in that sense. And I think THIS Pope is definitely one of those special people.
 
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josiah:
So, if my circumstances don’t prevent me from being baptized and I don’t get baptized, then into dante’s fire I go.

As I understand it, I’m saved by grace but only as it is manifested through the sacraments ie…baptism. However, the sacraments in their self are works. So, in reality I’m really saved by works and not grace.

Peace
Josiah
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Josiah -

Baptism is not a “work” in the sense you are trying to portray it as. It is better understood as an ACT OF FAITH through which God bestows Grace. In fact if we wanted to be as technical in our definition of FAITH as you are for BAPTISM then couldn’t faith itself be considered a work? Since faith doesn’t exist apart from the day to day manifestation of itself through your behavior, how can it not be a work? Ie, can faith exist simply in your mind or heart apart from your actions? James Chapter 2 speaks explicitly on this topic. Also, wouldn’t reading the bible be a work? How are we to know the gospel message without reading the bible? And how is that not, then, a work?

Phil
 
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Fiat:
Hi Oudave:

The issue is not whether God loves the Pope more than He loves your or me. The issue is whether you can assure yourself that your interpretation of scripture is correct. 2 Pet 3:16 states that with regard to scripture, “In them, there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

The question you should ask yourself is whether you are, in some way, exempt from this Bible verse. It seems clear to me that Jesus gave the ability of interpreting scriptures correctly in Matthew 16, beginning in verse 16. I nowhere see that I or you were given this ability.

In Jesus,Fiat

I didn’t say that God LOVES the pope more than you or I, but I know some catholics that almost worship the man. My inlaws are all catholic.
I know that I’m not ignorant nor unstable,

Jam 1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to everyone generously without a rebuke, and it will be given to him.

In Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
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