Baptism

[Fiat]

Dear SPOKENWORD:

If baptism depends on the individual’s decision to accept Christ, then grace is no longer grace. The Bible says that if grace is to be grace, then God is to do all the work. (Rom. 11:6). Infant baptism is the purest application of God’s grace as the infant does absolutely nothing to receive free salvation!

Theodred is quite correct. Read his post more clearly.

Fiat

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Fiat:

Dear SPOKENWORD:

If baptism depends on the individual’s decision to accept Christ, then grace is no longer grace. The Bible says that if grace is to be grace, then God is to do all the work. (Rom. 11:6). Infant baptism is the purest application of God’s grace as the infant does absolutely nothing to receive free salvation!

Theodred is quite correct. Read his post more clearly.

Fiat

Good point Fiat!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Fiat:

Dear SPOKENWORD:

If baptism depends on the individual’s decision to accept Christ, then grace is no longer grace. The Bible says that if grace is to be grace, then God is to do all the work. (Rom. 11:6). Infant baptism is the purest application of God’s grace as the infant does absolutely nothing to receive free salvation!

Theodred is quite correct. Read his post more clearly.

Fiat

Hi Fiat, It would apply whether or not that baby was baptised or not because like I said God has babies under His wings. God Bless

 

[TNT]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Fiat, It would apply whether or not that baby was baptised or not because like I said God has babies under His wings. God Bless

In Catholic terms, I believe, Fiat, that SPOKENW. is saying:

1. The RCC was correct to pronounce the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
2. They just did not go far enough and pronounce the dogma of every human’s immaculate conception.
   A newborn is saved or justified, whether it wills it or not, and baptism does not change that.
   In other words we are born into universal salvation, at least until the age of reason, after which time we can then decide to affirm or deny Christ and His Church.
   Did I get it right?

 

[Theodred]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Fiat, It would apply whether or not that baby was baptised or not because like I said God has babies under His wings.

But where is that in the bible?

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Fiat, It would apply whether or not that baby was baptised or not

God loves physical matter. He created it. He gave His Son a human body composed of physical matter. The Catholic sacraments use physical matter as a bridge between heaven and earth for the recipient to receive God’s free gift of grace. Bread, wine, water, oil, laying on of hands…these are all biblical examples of matter working as a conduit for the graces of God. Many protestants, and especially baptists don’t believe in sacraments, and they don’t believe that the water of baptism has any particular salvific purpose. They also don’t believe that the individual receives grace from God at their baptism. So this is, in essence, where our differences originate. If a baptist believed that grace was bestowed on an individual at their Baptism, they would surely Baptize their infants. But since it is only a symbolic ordinance to them, they hold fast to believer’s baptism. Grace is a free gift, and Catholics cherish the fact that their babies receive it at their Baptism. St Augustine said of Baptism: “The word is brought to the material element, and it becomes a sacrament”. The Catholic Church believes that, “Holy Baptism is the basis of Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit, and the door which gives access to the other sacraments”. The baptist church, and those who adhere to baptist theology, do not believe this. And so, the baptist will never agree with the Catholic theology of Baptism, because to do so would render their entire existence null and void.

 

[Fiat]

In Catholic terms, I believe, Fiat, that SPOKENW. is saying:

1. The RCC was correct to pronounce the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
2. They just did not go far enough and pronounce the dogma of every human’s immaculate conception.
   A newborn is saved or justified, whether it wills it or not, and baptism does not change that.
   In other words we are born into universal salvation, at least until the age of reason, after which time we can then decide to affirm or deny Christ and His Church.
   Did I get it right?

TNT:
Thanks for pointing this out! You’re exactly right. Essentially, those Christians who do not accept the Immaculate Conception of Mary ironically accept the fact that every other human being was conceived without the stain of sin.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Théodred:

But where is that in the bible?

Hi Theodore, Ill quote Isaiah 43 vs 1 But now ,thus says the Lord who created you and formed you,fear not ,for I have redeemed you. I have called you by name;you are mine. God Bless

 

[Theodred]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Theodore, Ill quote Isaiah 43 vs 1 But now ,thus says the Lord who created you and formed you,fear not ,for I have redeemed you. I have called you by name;you are mine. God Bless

I’m looking for something in the bible that says that since God has all the little babies under his wings, that this somehow negates the necessity of baptism. As already mentioned, God sustains us all. The logical conclusion of your argument here is that baptism is unnecessary.

In other words, you fell back to an emotive statement meant to illicit a sentimental response instead of presenting a biblical argument.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Théodred:

I’m looking for something in the bible that says that since God has all the little babies under his wings, that this somehow negates the necessity of baptism. As already mentioned, God sustains us all. The logical conclusion of your argument here is that baptism is unnecessary.

In other words, you fell back to an emotive statement meant to illicit a sentimental response instead of presenting a biblical argument.

Hi Ted, What do you think happens to non catholic babies that die? Do you not believe God has them under His Wings. We have a loving and mercyful God.Why do you differ in my comments? Do you believe He would let one of these little ones perish? Let us put on the mind of Christ,please. God Bless.

 

[TNT]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Ted, What do you think happens to non catholic babies that die? Do you not believe God has them under His Wings. We have a loving and mercyful God.Why do you differ in my comments? Do you believe He would let one of these little ones perish? Let us put on the mind of Christ,please. God Bless.

All we ask is where in the Bible it says what happens to those infants that die without being initiated into or baptized into Christianity.
Where in the NT ie the New Covenant that says they are exempt from baptism.
Where does it say that Rom 2:23 …“All have sinned and do NEED the glory of God…” means NOT those freshly entering into the world.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.
Q.How do you reconcile this with “all newborns are immaculately conceived”?
Q. Do we or do we not inherit the estate of our 1st parents ie over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam?
1 Peter 3 :20-21 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Where unto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Q. Isn’t Peter comfirming very clearly, the remedy to Paul’s "over them also who have not sinned "?
Baptism infuses the free gift of Sanctifying grace which from that moment makes us Christian and acceptable of the inheritance of the Blood of Christ in salvation.
It’s Ok if you want to avoid all my previous questions. I think I know your answers.

 

[TNT]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Ted, What do you think happens to non catholic babies that die? Do you not believe God has them under His Wings. We have a loving and mercyful God.Why do you differ in my comments? Do you believe He would let one of these little ones perish? Let us put on the mind of Christ,please. God Bless.

You have clearly abandoned the Scriptures for sentimentality…a modernist philosophy.
Indeed, put on the mind of Christ and abandon yours to His.
There are 2 kinds of punishment:

1. Positive: I do something to you (torment) or demand something from you (such as hard labor)
2. Negative: I a) keep something from you (no TV) or b) withhold something that would be completely unearned; (a full scolarship to Princeton OR the full absorption into the Beatific Vision of God himself).
   Unbaptised, sinless are in #2b. Not #1.
   Unbaptised have no natural faculty for receiving “the full absorption into the Beatific Vision of God himself”.
   They have a natural faculty for enjoying all that the natural faculty can absorb…but nothing supernatural (above their nature).
   An anology:
   If I give an uneducated heathen a Rembrandt or a Rolls Royce, then returned 18 months later. What do you suppose I would end up with? (If you don’t believe it, try something similar with a baby.)
   And another, California gives an uneducated heathen a genuine Doctorate certificate of Psychiatry.
   And another: I give my German Shepherd a Harley Davidson and a $5000 set of Craftsman tools in a rollaround 5ft high cabinet.
   The point is, in the natural sphere, they have no clue and cannot absorb the value or proper use of these gifts.
   So what would be the use of giving it to them??
   Sinless unbaptised receive all they came absorb. This is a punishment by “withhold something that would be completely unearned” and had no way of absorbing without Sanctifying Grace which puts them in a “super” (above) natural condition.
   This has nothing to do with the torment of the unrepentant.
   BTW: A baptised Christian who sins and turns unrepentant to the the end, will suffer (“super” naturally) and a sinful heathen will suffer only “naturally”.
   This is the perennial Catholic Faith which conforms so well to its Scriptures.

 

[cove]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Ted, What do you think happens to non catholic babies that die? Do you not believe God has them under His Wings. We have a loving and mercyful God.Why do you differ in my comments? Do you believe He would let one of these little ones perish? Let us put on the mind of Christ,please. God Bless.

I pulled this from this web-site. Maybe it will help answer your questions–

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized” (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

 

[Theodred]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Ted, What do you think happens to non catholic babies that die? Do you not believe God has them under His Wings. We have a loving and mercyful God.Why do you differ in my comments? Do you believe He would let one of these little ones perish? Let us put on the mind of Christ,please. God Bless.

The simple answer is, I don’t know. And if you base your Christianity on what you read in the bible and only the bible, you would have to honestly answer the same.

The only sure means of salvation provided for in Scripture is by faith and water baptism. For us Catholics, the only sure means of salvation provided by Scripture and Tradition is by faith and baptism (not necessarily confined to water baptism only as cove pointed out).

Nowhere in the bible does it say that babies who die without either faith or baptism are saved. However, the New Testament is very clear that one is saved only by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). We can speculate as to the fate of unbaptized children all we want, and I would certainly hope (as we all should) that a merciful God would save them. However, God in His wisdom has not deemed fit to reveal this to us.

You are still using sentimentality to attack my argument, rather than a biblical argument: “you are some kind of monster if you don’t think God saves unbaptized babies.” Well, maybe I am and maybe I’m not, but that doesn’t change the fact that this doctrine of yours is not in the bible.

 

[TNT]

cove:

I pulled this from this web-site. Maybe it will help answer your questions–…
salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

COVE, are you accepting this as Doctrine?
So,
Q. When is it impossible?
Q. When is it certain?
According to the CCC it is NEVER certain but only possible.
Q. Did the CCC give any references for this remarkably imprecise conjecture?

 

[mercygate]

From today’s Office of Readings:

From a sermon by Faustus of Riez, Bishop (d. ca. 490-495 a.d.)

To those who see only with the outward eye, all these events at Cana are strange and wonderful; to those who understand, they are also signs. For if we look closely, the very water tells us of our rebirth in baptism. One thing is turned into another from within, and in a hidden way a lesser creature is changed into a greater. All this points to the hidden reality of our second birth. There water was suddenly changed; later it will cause a change in man.

By Christ’s actions in Galilee, then, wine is made, that is, the law withdraws and grace takes its place; the shadows fade and truth becomes present; fleshly realities are coupled with spiritual, and the old covenant with its outward discipline is transformed into the new. For, as the Apostle says: The old order has passed away; now all is new! The water in the jars is not less than it was before, but now begins to be what it had not been; so too the law is not destroyed by Christ’s coming, but is made better than it was.

When the wine fails, new wine is served: the wine of the old covenant was good, but the wine of the new is better. The old covenant, which Jews follow, is exhausted by its letter; the new covenant, which belongs to us, has the savor of life and is filled with grace.

The good wine, that is, good precepts, refers to the law; thus we read: You shall love your neighbor but hate your enemy. But the Gospel is a better and stronger wine: My command to you is: love your enemies, prayer for your persecutors.

 

[Theodred]

mercygate:

From today’s Office of Readings:

From a sermon by Faustus of Riez, Bishop (d. ca. 490-495 a.d.)

To those who see only with the outward eye, all these events at Cana are strange and wonderful; to those who understand, they are also signs. For if we look closely, the very water tells us of our rebirth in baptism. One thing is turned into another from within, and in a hidden way a lesser creature is changed into a greater. All this points to the hidden reality of our second birth. There water was suddenly changed; later it will cause a change in man.

By Christ’s actions in Galilee, then, wine is made, that is, the law withdraws and grace takes its place; the shadows fade and truth becomes present; fleshly realities are coupled with spiritual, and the old covenant with its outward discipline is transformed into the new. For, as the Apostle says: The old order has passed away; now all is new! The water in the jars is not less than it was before, but now begins to be what it had not been; so too the law is not destroyed by Christ’s coming, but is made better than it was.

When the wine fails, new wine is served: the wine of the old covenant was good, but the wine of the new is better. The old covenant, which Jews follow, is exhausted by its letter; the new covenant, which belongs to us, has the savor of life and is filled with grace.

The good wine, that is, good precepts, refers to the law; thus we read: You shall love your neighbor but hate your enemy. But the Gospel is a better and stronger wine: My command to you is: love your enemies, prayer for your persecutors.

LOL, when I prayed the office this morning and read, “There water was suddenly changed; later it will cause a change in man,” I thought, “how apropos.”

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Théodred:

The simple answer is, I don’t know. And if you base your Christianity on what you read in the bible and only the bible, you would have to honestly answer the same.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks Ted for being honest. There are alot of thing we really dont know.We like to make alot of assumptions.When it comes to spiritual matters we like to assume alot,dont we? God Bless

 

[cove]

COVE, are you accepting this as Doctrine?
So,
Q. When is it impossible?
Q. When is it certain?
According to the CCC it is NEVER certain but only possible.
Q. Did the CCC give any references for this remarkably imprecise conjecture?

What is wrong with accepting the idea that God’s mercy would allow a small child who has not been baptised to enter the kingdom of heaven? What do you think has happened to those who have been aborted or died before birth? Do you really think that our merciful God would not accept them?

I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Is it your belief that without baptism by water it is absolutely impossible for anyone to enter the kingdom of heaven? Even the smallest and most innocent among us? Do you not believe in the loving mercy of God?

Impercise conjecture? How about this passage from the CCC–

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,”[63] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

True, we are not “certain” of this but we can only “hope” that those who have not had the privilege of baptism will be granted God’s mercy and enter the kingdom of heaven. I for one pray and hope this.

 

[TNT]

cove:

What is wrong with accepting the idea that God’s mercy would allow a small child who has not been baptised to enter the kingdom of heaven?
Please read POST 150.
Doctrines are not ideas. The child will have a kingdom, but not to the extent that a baptised infant will.
Does abortion lead to certainty of salvation for the infant?
The greater evil of abortion is not the natural death. But when we oppose it against the Godless world, that is their only standard by which we can argue. They do not accept the supernatural.
But Catholics know that abortion ruins the hope of the infant ever receiving the full absorption into the Beatific vision of God. Which is the greater consequence of that crime? The Natural or supernatural loss?

What do you think has happened to those who have been aborted or died before birth? Do you really think that our merciful God would not accept them?

I am trying to understand where you are coming from.

Please read POST 150. It should be clear. If not please post any further request for further clarity.

Is it your belief that without baptism by water it is absolutely impossible for anyone to enter the kingdom of heaven?

I believe what the Church has always taught. Therefore, It cannot be “my” belief, but only the received teaching of the True Church. The same teaching that my forefathers received for 2000 years.
Please read POST 150.
That post and the one to you was concerning anyone BEFORE the age of reason, primarily infants. So “anyone” does not apply here.That’s why I cut out the CCC statement on others.

Even the smallest and most innocent among us? Do you not believe in the loving mercy of God?

1. We are not born innocent in the supernaturasl order. That is the perennial teaching of the Catholic faith. We are born innocent only in the natural order. It is an error to co-mingle the two and then add sentimentality, then preach that as doctine.
2. All God’s gifts are a mercy.
   All God’s punisment is a justice.
   Witness: Why were you born with your soul where you were and are in the Catholic Faith. Compare this to a child born in the back streets of Calcutta. Why were they born there and you born here, in the supernatural order, not the natural order?
   What chance does that child have of being a Catholic in the True Church compared to your’s and mine? Zero comes to mind. Why is that?
   Explain to me God’s Mercy in that real life situation, please.
   If one is not infused with the habitation of Sanctifying Grace, then they UNABLE to receive the supernatural full gift of the full absorption into the Beatific vision. See the German Shepherd analogy in post 150.

True, we are not “certain” of this but we can only “hope” that those who have not had the privilege of baptism will be granted God’s mercy and enter the kingdom of heaven. I for one pray and hope this.

You may hope, but this is not a doctrine. A doctrine does not promote a “possibility” for all things are possible. God may do as He wishes, but our doctrines are based on revelation, never on wishful possibilities.
Post 150, I believe is closest to doctrine, and is both Merciful and Just from revelation which includes Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition teaches us what is in post 150.
God is BOTH perfectly Just and perfectly Merciful. We are not to ignore His Justice nor the Supernatural Order.
all of it must be considered in beliefs as proposed by the Church.

Baltimore Catechism
Q. 632. Where will persons go who – such as infants – have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?

A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo (e a place of Natural contentment), where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the (fullest) happiness of heaven.

This has been the teaching of the Catholic Faith from the beginning. Anything opposed to it is not the Catholic Faith. In this case, lest we be lead into the error of Universalism.

I thank you sincerely for responding to my post, and greatly appreciate your questions.
But proposing that unbaptised infants go to Heaven in the fullest sense is not conducive to convincing a protestant that infant baptism is a vaild and required practice of the Church.
God Bless
ps I would be thankful if you address the questions in this post.